Wait you think Rescue from the Underworld is a color pie violation? Everything about that card is black.
Not a strict violation, but it does it in a way that could only have been done for flavor reasons. Black reanimation simply doesn't work like it does in Rescue unless it is an important exception.
I will say, people really should read/listen to MaRo's articles/podcasts if they want to have well thought out and informed color pie/design/mechanical identity discussion. It is very difficult to talk have this sort of chat when people are running solely on opinions and emotion without it being tempered by information. That and the stuff is very interesting for anyone with a love for Magic.
Please read the discussion above and in the following pages. You may find them informative.
I agree with the points Jivanmukta gave.
The most notorious offense is that this card lets you choose creatures very freely.
Red is supposed to be reckless, It would be ok if it was ALL creatures or something among those lines, and even then it's kind of an stretch.
Agreed 100%.
I have similar feelings about Red getting Redirect effects, at least the same type as Blue
(Red should be able to "tamper" with a spell but not precisely retarget, IMO.
If you guys think Jivanmukta is freaking out over this,
you should have seen the ***** fit I pitched when I first saw Shunt
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Not a strict violation, but it does it in a way that could only have been done for flavor reasons. Black reanimation simply doesn't work like it does in Rescue unless it is an important exception.
Sure it's designed to be a flavorful card but there's nothing about it's design that isn't black. You sac a creature and reanimate it and something else next turn. There's nothing about that that's not black. It's a black means to a black end.
you should have seen the ***** fit I pitched when I first saw Shunt
Shunt effects are only done at rare (I think?) and it has been stated many times it is a shared u/r mechanic. I don't believe that is comparable to current issues at all.
Not everything Red does has to be random or destroy everything completely and blindly. Just because red is the emotion color, the color that doesn't sit back and plan doesn't mean it can't make a plan. It's just that it makes a plan and executes it immediately rather than waiting for more information or for someone else to act first.
Dio what are you talking about? The image of the card is in the OP.
Not a strict violation, but it does it in a way that could only have been done for flavor reasons. Black reanimation simply doesn't work like it does in Rescue unless it is an important exception.
Sure it's designed to be a flavorful card but there's nothing about it's design that isn't black. You sac a creature and reanimate it and something else next turn. There's nothing about that that's not black. It's a black means to a black end.
Eh, black just doesn't do it THAT way. It's 100% a black card in mechanics, but it is unique in its execution. Like I said, it's not a violation, but a mechanic that was only done that way to convey the flavor. It is not a design we will see commonly (if ever again).
You keep going back to the polymorph thing as if there is a wealth of precedent. There 're a grand total of 3 cards that do that, before the new exile ones. There are many more red that say destroy. So no, this does not feel off at all
This isn't how Magic design or card precedent works at all...
you should have seen the ***** fit I pitched when I first saw Shunt
Shunt effects are only done at rare (I think?) and it has been stated many times it is a shared u/r mechanic. I don't believe that is comparable to current issues at all.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Eh, black just doesn't do it THAT way. It's 100% a black card in mechanics, but it is unique in its execution. Like I said, it's not a violation, but a mechanic that was only done that way to convey the flavor. It is not a design we will see commonly (if ever again).
Certainly it's been said that the card could only have been made in Theros and that's most likely because of flavor but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the card. Even saying that Black just doesn't do it that way is moot because black can do reanimation however it wants. It's one of it's core mechanics. If they find a neat way to reanimate something it'll probably be in black because that's it's wheelhouse.
you should have seen the ***** fit I pitched when I first saw Shunt
Shunt effects are only done at rare (I think?) and it has been stated many times it is a shared u/r mechanic. I don't believe that is comparable to current issues at all.
So, unlike this card, Shunt actually had zero precedent whatsoever.
I don't really see how you can defend that.
There was no precedent. They simply said they moved it to red in addition to blue. No r&d members sneaking cards in, no disagreements over pie (at least no publicly mentioned ones. They wanted it in red so they added it. So I'm defending it on the grounds that they admitted to putting into red.
This is a different situation as they have consistently said the opposite about red and destruction.
So, unlike this card, Shunt actually had zero precedent whatsoever.
I don't really see how you can defend that.
Because they are okay with giving certain colors effects that have existed for a long time in other colors! Are you mad about them moving rituals to red too? What about Vigilance in green? Red is the trickster color. It's all to happy to screw with your magic, with predictable outcomes at that!!
EDIT: Never mind, forgot I had the OP on ignore. Can someone post a picture please?
There you go
lol that made my night. Considering Akki_Akki was the original poster.
Now for seriousness. The card is good. It defiantly will see play in EDH in preexisting decks like Purphoros among a variety of others like Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund.
So, unlike this card, Shunt actually had zero precedent whatsoever.
I don't really see how you can defend that.
Because they are okay with giving certain colors effects that have existed for a long time in other colors! Are you mad about them moving rituals to red too? What about Vigilance in green? Red is the trickster color. It's all to happy to screw with your magic, with predictable outcomes at that!!
You appear to be ignoring the part where I was using that as an explanation for why Red might have this "new" ability.
Context exists for a reason.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Has anyone mentioned Devastating Summons as precedent? I know lands aren't creatures, but it's a similar effect.
I think the idea of spending six mana to kill an opponent's creature and replace it with another decent creature (at sorcery speed) is so far from the intent of the card (which, ideally, is replacing your smaller creatures with dragons) that it fits into red (especially since Sarkhan the Mad exists)...especially in the Mythic rarity, where the boundaries of the game can be pushed a little.
So, unlike this card, Shunt actually had zero precedent whatsoever.
I don't really see how you can defend that.
Because they are okay with giving certain colors effects that have existed for a long time in other colors! Are you mad about them moving rituals to red too? What about Vigilance in green? Red is the trickster color. It's all to happy to screw with your magic, with predictable outcomes at that!!
You appear to be ignoring the part where I was using that as an explanation for why Red might have this "new" ability.
Context exists for a reason.
I don't think killing creatures outright is a red "Thing." It's an oddity that might show up from time to time if a flavorful card needs it, like with this card. Let's get something straight; this card is NOT about destroying creatures. It IS about unleashing a storm of dragons onto the board.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
Mythics stretch pie boundaries, this feels extremely red, and it's not the ridge of some slippery slope into colour chaos. Mountains and molehills: thine name be MtG Salvation.
Mythics stretch pie boundaries, this feels extremely red, and it's not the ridge of some slippery slope into colour chaos. Mountains and molehills: thine name be MtG Salvation.
Would a molehill be considered a mountain or a plains? Akki_Akki just pondering.
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Not a strict violation, but it does it in a way that could only have been done for flavor reasons. Black reanimation simply doesn't work like it does in Rescue unless it is an important exception.
I will say, people really should read/listen to MaRo's articles/podcasts if they want to have well thought out and informed color pie/design/mechanical identity discussion. It is very difficult to talk have this sort of chat when people are running solely on opinions and emotion without it being tempered by information. That and the stuff is very interesting for anyone with a love for Magic.
Agreed 100%.
I have similar feelings about Red getting Redirect effects, at least the same type as Blue
(Red should be able to "tamper" with a spell but not precisely retarget, IMO.
If you guys think Jivanmukta is freaking out over this,
you should have seen the ***** fit I pitched when I first saw Shunt
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Sure it's designed to be a flavorful card but there's nothing about it's design that isn't black. You sac a creature and reanimate it and something else next turn. There's nothing about that that's not black. It's a black means to a black end.
Shunt effects are only done at rare (I think?) and it has been stated many times it is a shared u/r mechanic. I don't believe that is comparable to current issues at all.
Dio what are you talking about? The image of the card is in the OP.
Eh, black just doesn't do it THAT way. It's 100% a black card in mechanics, but it is unique in its execution. Like I said, it's not a violation, but a mechanic that was only done that way to convey the flavor. It is not a design we will see commonly (if ever again).
When I click on this thread, the image pops up for half a second, then disappears. It's pretty freaky. I don't know if it's actually there or not...
Feel free to tell me yours!
The brain is a scary thing.
This isn't how Magic design or card precedent works at all...
Something something blame Sarkhan something something something time shenanigans.
Akki_Akki see it just fine.
I couldn't disagree more.
By the time Shunt saw print, Blue already had Deflection, Misdirection, Meddle, Rebound, Divert and Willbender.
So, unlike this card, Shunt actually had zero precedent whatsoever.
I don't really see how you can defend that.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Certainly it's been said that the card could only have been made in Theros and that's most likely because of flavor but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the card. Even saying that Black just doesn't do it that way is moot because black can do reanimation however it wants. It's one of it's core mechanics. If they find a neat way to reanimate something it'll probably be in black because that's it's wheelhouse.
You too? Haha. It's a wonder everyone isn't having the same problem.
Feel free to tell me yours!
There you go
There was no precedent. They simply said they moved it to red in addition to blue. No r&d members sneaking cards in, no disagreements over pie (at least no publicly mentioned ones. They wanted it in red so they added it. So I'm defending it on the grounds that they admitted to putting into red.
This is a different situation as they have consistently said the opposite about red and destruction.
Because they are okay with giving certain colors effects that have existed for a long time in other colors! Are you mad about them moving rituals to red too? What about Vigilance in green? Red is the trickster color. It's all to happy to screw with your magic, with predictable outcomes at that!!
lol that made my night. Considering Akki_Akki was the original poster.
Now for seriousness. The card is good. It defiantly will see play in EDH in preexisting decks like Purphoros among a variety of others like Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund.
Feel free to tell me yours!
You appear to be ignoring the part where I was using that as an explanation for why Red might have this "new" ability.
Context exists for a reason.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I think the idea of spending six mana to kill an opponent's creature and replace it with another decent creature (at sorcery speed) is so far from the intent of the card (which, ideally, is replacing your smaller creatures with dragons) that it fits into red (especially since Sarkhan the Mad exists)...especially in the Mythic rarity, where the boundaries of the game can be pushed a little.
I don't think killing creatures outright is a red "Thing." It's an oddity that might show up from time to time if a flavorful card needs it, like with this card. Let's get something straight; this card is NOT about destroying creatures. It IS about unleashing a storm of dragons onto the board.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Would a molehill be considered a mountain or a plains? Akki_Akki just pondering.