However, there is a way to do arcs in a different way from Alara. Alara shards were rooted in the central color with its two allies. However, wedges of KTK are rooted in a "side color" with one ally and one enemy -- and arcs can be done in the same way. So, I'd presume:
WUB arc, centered in black
UBR arc, centered in red
BRG arc, centered in green
RGW arc, centered in white
GWU arc, centered in blue
Why this way? Well, first it's a kind of book-endish (start of block has first printed color as main, end has last printed color as main), but also, the arc and the wedge centered in same color would share its allied color as well (i.e. Jeskai and GWU arc both have white in addition to blue, but Jeskai chooses red out of its enemies while GWU arc chooses green).
The color identity of the FRF leaders does not work with arcs. The article said they wanted legends that could play have the KTK and DTK factions in them. That means either ally or enemy pairs.
The hybrid "fake wedge" cards would fit either ally or enemy pairs. My guess is that the factions will be enemy pairs, lead by descendants of the FRF dragons. If not, I guess the ally pairs would continue on. They stretched arcs pretty hard in Alara block and since they are tied to the shards, I imagine that they will save shards colors for a return to Alara.
I think that color sets are too generic resource to limit it to single setting.
In Alara, the shards were strongly defined by the central colors. But you could take the same color combinations and make a different color the main one -- this would make something sufficiently different from Alara.
Observe:
In FRF, the groupings are basically allied pairs, though clan leaders show signs of wedging out. But:
Abzan mechanic, bolster, is only seen in green and white (and on the green/white dragon). No black so far.
We only see prowess in white and blue, no red so far.
Delve - only blue and black, no green so far.
Dash - only black and red.
Ferocious - only red and green.
You create a clan from a color pair by adding an enemy of the "main" color. But you could also create an arc by adding its other enemy. This would give you:
Abzan evolution: RGW with white as main color
Jeskai evolution: GWU with blue as main color
Sultai evolution: WUB with black as main color
Mardu evolution: UBR with red as main color
Temur evolution: BRG with green as main color
Could the two new mechanics spread into these colors? Bolster might, admittedly, look a bit strange in red, until you realize that red is the color that tends to have high power/low toughness creatures which would actually play very nicely with bolster. Dash spreading into blue can be also justified, as blue is main color for returning things to hand, although it doesn't usually get haste.
EDIT: I thought the previous post was lost, so there's some retreading of what I said before. Sorry about that.
Sultai legend is far too slow. No evasion means this guy is going to primarily be a card advantage engine, but 4 mana to give my opponent the choice is not where I want to be every turn.
The Abzan mythic though is what I'm interested in. I'm not sure how to value him since I've never played with FoD, but this guy seems playable. Only problem is he is in lightning bolt range for a long time and the evasion doesn't really kick in until the final ability, save for a token chump block. I like him though, favorite card in the set so far for design.
Why is 'Lightning bolt (/strike) range' considered an especially relevant thing in this standard that will now have its new-Shock and will continue to have Stoke the Flames? 3 toughness isn't a magic number in this standard. It's not flooded with viable spells that do 3 damage and a shortage of spells that do more or less.
The color identity of the FRF leaders does not work with arcs. The article said they wanted legends that could play have the KTK and DTK factions in them. That means either ally or enemy pairs.
I'm not too sure about that. MaRo says "We wanted the clan leaders to serve as commanders for decks built both around the Khans of Tarkir factions and the Dragons of Tarkir factions, but how could a card be both a wedge card and not a wedge card?", but strictly speaking, he doesn't say that they actually succeeded in this regard. On the other hand, he can't really say whether they succeeded or not since that would be a clue. Note, however, that outside of Commander, each clan leader can be played in all three arc combinations that include its main color.
The arc theory's advantage is mainly esthetic, as wedges vs. arcs would be more satisfying mirrored world than wedges vs. pairs. It would be more interesting symmetry breaking.
I wasn't so much specifically referring to Lelu's post so much as the overall discussion of Warden, where people are dismissing its viability in general because of that dreaded 3 in the toughness in its first and second upgrade states, seemingly because people are mindlocked into '3 is a magic number of toughness' mode despite that being untrue in current-standard.
I think judging from Arcbond's flavour text Mardu's Khan is Alesha, Who Smiles at Death.
I sincerely hope so. THAT NAME IS EPIC!! It's also interesting to note that if that's the case then then the old Khans have effectively swapped genders with their successors... dunno why that'd be important but it still seems interesting.
I love the new shock and Tasigur a lot! Red needed a shock effect and it's really sweet that it's straight upside (though of course no Galvanic Blast). Tasigur seems like an awesome build around commander though I wish his ability costed a little less. The black and red dragons seems sexy in limited and the others are fine too.
I'm honestly not a fan of the Abzan mythic though, mainly b/c of the weakness of the second activated ability. I'd much rather just play a separate threat than spend four mana to upgrade him and probably watch him eat a Lightning strike or Bile Blight. He seems rather cool though so I'm fine with that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Casual Decks WRBoros Aggro (Glorious knights of badassery) RBRakdos Bloodthirst (Undercosted waves of fat s***) URIzzet Talrand/Pyromancer (b/c I hate you) GRGruul Ramp and Stomp (SO FAT. SO FAST. RAWRRR) GBGolgari Birthing Pod (b/c you wanted a challenge. I did warn you this BS is banned though) BWOrzhov Lifegain Aggro (Removal for dayzzz) WGSelesnya Tribal Golem-splicers/token (meh. Needs more upgrades. Perhaps switching to bant?) WUAzorius Flicker (b/c I wanna annoy the f*** outta you) GUSimic Evolve Aggro (Aggro takes a journey to the weird side of the color pie) BUDimir Control (b/c I wanna peel your skin off and flay you within an inch of life before I kill you) URWJeskai Ascendency Tokens (MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA) RWBMardu Warriors (Butcher is da bomb) GU Simic Morph (slow as s*** but oh so fun) WBGAbzan Dredge-animator (PURE EVIL) GWHexproof Aggro (Deal with it. Lemme guess, you cant?)
EDH Decks UBRNekusar (Multiplayer MONSTA. 1v1 Klutz) GRB Prossh (Set up engines. WRECK FACE) GEzuri (Hey so I heard you liked Elves...) UTalrand (Counter. Cantrip. Counter. Cantrip. Repeat till opponents die-- possibly of boredom)
Tiny leaders WUDaxos (basic 3/1 fliers do basic s***. Also Daxos) RWAnax and Cymede (Heroic weenie beats)
Standard RRMONO RED AGGRO (RAWWWRRRR!!!!) WUHeroic Aggro (Easy mode beatstick)
Why does DTK need to be an *insert colorcombo here* set? Can't it be a Dragon-Set?
I think it's a given that it's a dragon set (either exclusively or at a level that hasn't occurred before). But given that it will still have "clan/faction" aspects, to me the best guess is that there would be 5 "teams" in dragons.
I'm not too sure about that. MaRo says "We wanted the clan leaders to serve as commanders for decks built both around the Khans of Tarkir factions and the Dragons of Tarkir factions, but how could a card be both a wedge card and not a wedge card?", but strictly speaking, he doesn't say that they actually succeeded in this regard.
Actually, he does:
My preview card today answers this question
The FRF clan leaders are able to support KTK factions and DTK factions in Commander/EDH. That means DTK can't have arc factions. They will be ally or enemy pairs.
I don't understand why people are so disappointed at warden of the first tree? He is a pretty good 1 CMC mythic. He is not legendary, gets to 3/3 turn 2 on the attack (which is what everyone wants for aggro right?), and could be shenaniganed higher turn 3. So what if he fails the bolt test? What 1 CMC creature doesn't? You people ask for entirely too much then complain when something is too powerful and needs to be banned. Hypocrites.
I'm not too sure about that. MaRo says "We wanted the clan leaders to serve as commanders for decks built both around the Khans of Tarkir factions and the Dragons of Tarkir factions, but how could a card be both a wedge card and not a wedge card?", but strictly speaking, he doesn't say that they actually succeeded in this regard.
Actually, he does:
My preview card today answers this question
The FRF clan leaders are able to support KTK factions and DTK factions in Commander/EDH. That means DTK can't have arc factions. They will be ally or enemy pairs.
Hm. Don't have a good answer to this, I admit. Although in that case, wouldn't they have to be enemy pairs? Since the ally pairs would already have valid commanders in FRF, and so they wouldn't have to try and double-fit the clan leaders?
Still think arcs would be cooler.
Arcbound: FANCY! Now that is some removal I can get behind.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang: SQUEE! I actually called it that he would be a effeminate pretty boy. That he would be Human, possibly shaman. That there was a possibility he might have delve. That his mana cost could range anywhere between B and 5B. That his activated ability would cost 2 . Sadly his activated ability I didn't call. I did call though he would have fairly big toughness as that IS a sultai-thing. That his power would never go above 4. That his title "The Golden Fang" would be directly correlated to someone of wealth and providence. Honestly though I cannot take all the credit as I couldn't of done it by myself. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/speculation/583146-speculation-tasigur-the-golden-fang?page=2#c34
Wardscale Dragon: Despite what people might say, I actually think the ability to prevent spells from your opponent in the middle of combat is a strong ability.
Mindscour Dragon: A mill dragon? That is fairly neat and out of the ordinary. Have we had a mill dragon before?
Noxious Dragon: That is a fairly cool and spiteful ability. "So you killed my dragon eh? Say bye-bye to that precious hatebear of yours!"
Shockmaw Dragon: That is actually not bad. I hit my opponent for 4 damage. Then I blast each of their creatures for 1 damage, which can potentially stomp out token decks.
Destructor Dragon: You know something, I love this dragon the most as its a Desert Twister on a body. Plus we got the name of the Temur dragon, Atraka. Plus if my theory is correct the next Dragon we are going to get is the Jeskai dragon and then the Temur dragon.
Dragons of Tarkir will be a four colour set with legends that cast for a single color and then have two hybrid activations of their in-clan enemy color and both of it's neighbours.
Sultai Dragon Khan 2B
Deathtouch
: Exile target card from a graveyard.
: ~ gains trample or something
P/T
The secret is that they figured out a way to do four colour legends without making it all about the missing colour. And each of the DTK khans will be able to play with all but one of the FRF khans.
Arcbond does nothing for me, but that's a nice batch of cards otherwise. Uncommon dragons are great, the green one is powerful considering green doesn't usually get efficient large fliers, even at rare. Warden is going to be popular.
So is the green dragon vs. the black dragon just Wizards admitting that creatures are really good right now?
(In their defence, green typically gets "free" power and toughness per given unit cost, so perhaps the ability is a bit better for the "downside" that it has the same P/T to cost ratio as the other colours.)
I think the power appraisals here, particularly for Golden Fang and the Warden, are suffering from the usual problem of imagining them in a vacuum, rather than being played smartly. You can play the Warden's abilities when it's smart to do so. You can contrive to only have useful things in your graveyard. It's the same as when people were cautioning against Treasure Cruise because how often are you going to have lots of cards in the 'yard? The answer was, of course, plenty often if you're doing it right.
Also I'd just like to reiterate again that this set looks like a lot of fun, both in terms of toys and power levels.
I'm not too sure about that. MaRo says "We wanted the clan leaders to serve as commanders for decks built both around the Khans of Tarkir factions and the Dragons of Tarkir factions, but how could a card be both a wedge card and not a wedge card?", but strictly speaking, he doesn't say that they actually succeeded in this regard.
Actually, he does:
My preview card today answers this question
The FRF clan leaders are able to support KTK factions and DTK factions in Commander/EDH. That means DTK can't have arc factions. They will be ally or enemy pairs.
Hm. Don't have a good answer to this, I admit. Although in that case, wouldn't they have to be enemy pairs? Since the ally pairs would already have valid commanders in FRF, and so they wouldn't have to try and double-fit the clan leaders?
Still think arcs would be cooler.
The FRF basic arts shown today are enemy pairs. i.e. Mardu art on Plains & Mountians
Enemy pairs would also allow Enemy fetches in DTK.
Also, this is our fourth strictly better Shock (fifth, if you count Tarfire). It's definitely weaker than Lightning Bolt, and probably weaker than both Galvanic Blast and Burst Lightning. It's still a nice card to have added to the file, but it's not breaking new ground.
Actually, allow me to make an observation: This set features five common enemy colored cards that each have a quote from a Khan or a comment on the clan. Perhaps the shift is enemy color, to combat the ally colored dragons? This would also match my theory that the Zendikar fetches are in Dragons of Tarkir.
The color identity of the FRF leaders does not work with arcs. The article said they wanted legends that could play have the KTK and DTK factions in them. That means either ally or enemy pairs.
I think that color sets are too generic resource to limit it to single setting.
In Alara, the shards were strongly defined by the central colors. But you could take the same color combinations and make a different color the main one -- this would make something sufficiently different from Alara.
Observe:
In FRF, the groupings are basically allied pairs, though clan leaders show signs of wedging out. But:
Abzan mechanic, bolster, is only seen in green and white (and on the green/white dragon). No black so far.
We only see prowess in white and blue, no red so far.
Delve - only blue and black, no green so far.
Dash - only black and red.
Ferocious - only red and green.
You create a clan from a color pair by adding an enemy of the "main" color. But you could also create an arc by adding its other enemy. This would give you:
Abzan evolution: RGW with white as main color
Jeskai evolution: GWU with blue as main color
Sultai evolution: WUB with black as main color
Mardu evolution: UBR with red as main color
Temur evolution: BRG with green as main color
Could the two new mechanics spread into these colors? Bolster might, admittedly, look a bit strange in red, until you realize that red is the color that tends to have high power/low toughness creatures which would actually play very nicely with bolster. Dash spreading into blue can be also justified, as blue is main color for returning things to hand, although it doesn't usually get haste.
EDIT: I thought the previous post was lost, so there's some retreading of what I said before. Sorry about that.
The Abzan mythic though is what I'm interested in. I'm not sure how to value him since I've never played with FoD, but this guy seems playable. Only problem is he is in lightning bolt range for a long time and the evasion doesn't really kick in until the final ability, save for a token chump block. I like him though, favorite card in the set so far for design.
that just sounds cool
I'm not too sure about that. MaRo says "We wanted the clan leaders to serve as commanders for decks built both around the Khans of Tarkir factions and the Dragons of Tarkir factions, but how could a card be both a wedge card and not a wedge card?", but strictly speaking, he doesn't say that they actually succeeded in this regard. On the other hand, he can't really say whether they succeeded or not since that would be a clue. Note, however, that outside of Commander, each clan leader can be played in all three arc combinations that include its main color.
The arc theory's advantage is mainly esthetic, as wedges vs. arcs would be more satisfying mirrored world than wedges vs. pairs. It would be more interesting symmetry breaking.
I sincerely hope so. THAT NAME IS EPIC!! It's also interesting to note that if that's the case then then the old Khans have effectively swapped genders with their successors... dunno why that'd be important but it still seems interesting.
I love the new shock and Tasigur a lot! Red needed a shock effect and it's really sweet that it's straight upside (though of course no Galvanic Blast). Tasigur seems like an awesome build around commander though I wish his ability costed a little less. The black and red dragons seems sexy in limited and the others are fine too.
I'm honestly not a fan of the Abzan mythic though, mainly b/c of the weakness of the second activated ability. I'd much rather just play a separate threat than spend four mana to upgrade him and probably watch him eat a Lightning strike or Bile Blight. He seems rather cool though so I'm fine with that.
WRBoros Aggro (Glorious knights of badassery)
RBRakdos Bloodthirst (Undercosted waves of fat s***)
URIzzet Talrand/Pyromancer (b/c I hate you)
GRGruul Ramp and Stomp (SO FAT. SO FAST. RAWRRR)
GBGolgari Birthing Pod (b/c you wanted a challenge. I did warn you this BS is banned though)
BWOrzhov Lifegain Aggro (Removal for dayzzz)
WGSelesnya Tribal Golem-splicers/token (meh. Needs more upgrades. Perhaps switching to bant?)
WUAzorius Flicker (b/c I wanna annoy the f*** outta you)
GUSimic Evolve Aggro (Aggro takes a journey to the weird side of the color pie)
BUDimir Control (b/c I wanna peel your skin off and flay you within an inch of life before I kill you)
URWJeskai Ascendency Tokens (MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
RWBMardu Warriors (Butcher is da bomb)
GU Simic Morph (slow as s*** but oh so fun)
WBGAbzan Dredge-animator (PURE EVIL)
GWHexproof Aggro (Deal with it. Lemme guess, you cant?)
EDH Decks
UBRNekusar (Multiplayer MONSTA. 1v1 Klutz)
GRB Prossh (Set up engines. WRECK FACE)
GEzuri (Hey so I heard you liked Elves...)
UTalrand (Counter. Cantrip. Counter. Cantrip. Repeat till opponents die-- possibly of boredom)
Tiny leaders
WUDaxos (basic 3/1 fliers do basic s***. Also Daxos)
RWAnax and Cymede (Heroic weenie beats)
Standard
RRMONO RED AGGRO (RAWWWRRRR!!!!)
WUHeroic Aggro (Easy mode beatstick)
I think it's a given that it's a dragon set (either exclusively or at a level that hasn't occurred before). But given that it will still have "clan/faction" aspects, to me the best guess is that there would be 5 "teams" in dragons.
Actually, he does:
The FRF clan leaders are able to support KTK factions and DTK factions in Commander/EDH. That means DTK can't have arc factions. They will be ally or enemy pairs.
Hm. Don't have a good answer to this, I admit. Although in that case, wouldn't they have to be enemy pairs? Since the ally pairs would already have valid commanders in FRF, and so they wouldn't have to try and double-fit the clan leaders?
Still think arcs would be cooler.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang: SQUEE! I actually called it that he would be a effeminate pretty boy. That he would be Human, possibly shaman. That there was a possibility he might have delve. That his mana cost could range anywhere between B and 5B. That his activated ability would cost 2 . Sadly his activated ability I didn't call. I did call though he would have fairly big toughness as that IS a sultai-thing. That his power would never go above 4. That his title "The Golden Fang" would be directly correlated to someone of wealth and providence. Honestly though I cannot take all the credit as I couldn't of done it by myself.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/speculation/583146-speculation-tasigur-the-golden-fang?page=2#c34
Warden of the First Tree: Cool. Why do I feel deja vu? Like this was printed before?
Wild Slash: Not that bad of a shock card.
Wardscale Dragon: Despite what people might say, I actually think the ability to prevent spells from your opponent in the middle of combat is a strong ability.
Mindscour Dragon: A mill dragon? That is fairly neat and out of the ordinary. Have we had a mill dragon before?
Noxious Dragon: That is a fairly cool and spiteful ability. "So you killed my dragon eh? Say bye-bye to that precious hatebear of yours!"
Shockmaw Dragon: That is actually not bad. I hit my opponent for 4 damage. Then I blast each of their creatures for 1 damage, which can potentially stomp out token decks.
Destructor Dragon: You know something, I love this dragon the most as its a Desert Twister on a body. Plus we got the name of the Temur dragon, Atraka. Plus if my theory is correct the next Dragon we are going to get is the Jeskai dragon and then the Temur dragon.
Fruit of the First Tree: Doran gonna love this.
That is what we call, a sleeper. Many a good card tends to be sleeper because it had no good impact on standard.
Actually, the article more or less implies that the clans have gone mono-colored, or maybe allied colors to match their dragon legend.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Sultai Dragon Khan 2B
Deathtouch
: Exile target card from a graveyard.
: ~ gains trample or something
P/T
The secret is that they figured out a way to do four colour legends without making it all about the missing colour. And each of the DTK khans will be able to play with all but one of the FRF khans.
.
(In their defence, green typically gets "free" power and toughness per given unit cost, so perhaps the ability is a bit better for the "downside" that it has the same P/T to cost ratio as the other colours.)
I think the power appraisals here, particularly for Golden Fang and the Warden, are suffering from the usual problem of imagining them in a vacuum, rather than being played smartly. You can play the Warden's abilities when it's smart to do so. You can contrive to only have useful things in your graveyard. It's the same as when people were cautioning against Treasure Cruise because how often are you going to have lots of cards in the 'yard? The answer was, of course, plenty often if you're doing it right.
Also I'd just like to reiterate again that this set looks like a lot of fun, both in terms of toys and power levels.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Why can't it be both?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
the rest are total jank
none of the dragons are even close to playable
The FRF basic arts shown today are enemy pairs. i.e. Mardu art on Plains & Mountians
Enemy pairs would also allow Enemy fetches in DTK.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube