I still think Rabblemaster applies more pressure. This card (seems to) need a build around to be good and I don't think it'll see standard play. It gets hit by almost all removal, including magma jet/spray, and doesn't have any evasion besides haste, at which point anything can really kill it. A double block from tokens or a single prowess trigger on that monks tokens while burning you to the face, speaking of, burn and tokens seem to be the deck to beat at this point in the spoilers and this guy gets destroyed by them.
Seems really good as a one of in Jeskai Tokens perhaps a new deck will pop but that runs this *some sort of G/R aggro*
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
This card is powerful and everything, but I find it kind of unsettling. I mean, you can slap a bunch of random abilities onto a creature but eventually it stops making sense. How is some red dude with an axe drawing us cards? Temur is such a flavor fail in general, everything is super clunky.
This card is powerful and everything, but I find it kind of unsettling. I mean, you can slap a bunch of random abilities onto a creature but eventually it stops making sense. How is some red dude with an axe drawing us cards? Temur is such a flavor fail in general, everything is super clunky.
Because the Orc is a War Shaman. His magics bolster his allies, and his war cry brings more out(cards). Temur is a flavor WIN in my book.
This card is being extremely overrated. Two toughness is pretty awful, trades with courser, morph creatures which are being pushed this set, magma jet.....He's competing with Rabblemaster and Savage Knuckleblade in those decks. The counters ability is pretty awful. Either one creature is getting bigger or if multiples are you were probably winning anyway, though can get pretty gross with hordeling outburst. The draw ability is extremely overrated, if you're drawing 3+ cards with it how are you not winning already?
I would replace this over Ashcloud Phoenix. At least he is not mana intensive to cast. Heir of the Wilds and other trample dudes will benefit the +1/+1 counter the most.
That phoenix has been over performing for me. I'm still quite surprised at how good it is.
There aren't really many trample dudes. Fanatic of Xenagos and?
Polis crusher would be nice, but hey, it's yet another good 4 drop...
So far only Fanatic of Xenagos with pump spells work the best. Later we'll be getting Yasova Dragonclaw with trample too.
This card is being extremely overrated. Two toughness is pretty awful, trades with courser, morph creatures which are being pushed this set, magma jet.....He's competing with Rabblemaster and Savage Knuckleblade in those decks. The counters ability is pretty awful. Either one creature is getting bigger or if multiples are you were probably winning anyway, though can get pretty gross with hordeling outburst. The draw ability is extremely overrated, if you're drawing 3+ cards with it how are you not winning already?
How is he competing with 3 drops when he is a 4 drop?
I actually like this despite its Red-ness-
he's big enough to trigger Ferocious on his own,
and his triggered ability will build up your other creatures so his activated ability draws more.
It's a fairly elegant design even if it isn't super powerful.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
But how do I fit him in Temur? I have to many 4 drops
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Sort of underwhelming in the grand scheme of things. His +1/+1 counters clause is kind of underwhelming, but on a 4/2 haste stick, it's not awful. His ferocious ability is out of place, as this guy is very outclassed by stormbreath and sarkahn. I'm not sure a midrange deck wants a 4/2 that gets stonewalled by anything on the ground.
This card is best in aggro, but even then, far from optimal for the four drop.
sarkhan and stormbreath are both 5 drops and this is a 4-drop, and only butcher is competing with its powerlevel, i really think this will see some play
Quite true. The only thing that has me questioning him as a 4 drop is the lack of evasion for such a heavy investment. He wants to be played in midrange, but I'm not quite seeing it as too valuable there. We'll have to see how he does
Monastery Siege in Dragons mode isn't a bad lead up, at least the opponent has to spend more mana to get rid of him. And if you have Temur Ascendancy on the battlefield, he has haste and nets you a card off the bat.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I actually like this despite its Red-ness-
he's big enough to trigger Ferocious on his own,
and his triggered ability will build up your other creatures so his activated ability draws more.
It's a fairly elegant design even if it isn't super powerful.
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how each element of the design works with another. I like the mythic cycle in general so far, but this is the most natural out of them.
Its a good card. Its actually quiet balanced. In exchange for being a Ferocious enabler and able to draw you cards, he has a fairly low toughness (2). Which isn't bad. You just need to pick your fights with him. Sometimes let him hangback while your higher health critters do the dirty work.
This sets power level has been just insane thus far. Sadly, I don't think this dude is all that great. I actually originally thought he was a 3-drop, I guess that's just how pushed everything feels.
A 4/2 for 4, even with haste is just bad without any form of evasion in the current meta. The ground gets too gummed up for you to ever think this will swing in for damage consistently. He'll be trading with 2-drops far too often.
His abilities are also the epitome of win-more. The better they are the better my position likely is within the game. Can a get a bunch of +1/+1 triggers? I'm already likely far ahead on the board. Can I draw a ton of cards? I'm already likely very far ahead on the board.. with multiple fatties.
I will say he's not a horrible late game top because he can provide CA all by himself but I'm afraid he's just going to be generally outclassed in the 4CMC slot.
Animar wants. Especially with Training Grounds to make its ability only cost (G/U)(G/U). Mayael says "rassinfrassin color identity rules". (And yes, everyone, this is an example of 'EDH-playable'.)
By the way, the Temur khan is Yasova Dragonclaw. And the khans are mythics, but the nonlegendary hybrid cycle is rare.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
4/2 Haste with that triggered ability would probably play a bit nicer if the creature type was Warrior. Standard in particular is supporting that creature type. I think that lack of creature type support will probably have him not played in that format very much.
Warriors have decent support in modern, in particular with +1/+1 counters. With Bramblewood Paragon in Modern, perhaps they didn't want this getting too cute with it (coming into play as a 5/3 with haste and trample with that ability.)
Really? Do you mean they didn't get it was a mechanic, or they didn't understand it?
They didn't understand it was a mechanic. R&D members were constantly getting pestered with questions that basically amounted to "Why didn't Naya get a mechanic in Alara?".
So they used a "keyword" this time to avoid that.
Yeah... but Esper didn't really have a keyword either. It's mechanic was colored artifacts.
The fact that Esper had a ton of artifacts and they got a special frame probably helped. Also Wizard's research said that people got that Esper was all about artifacts, the issue is what actually happened not whether behave in perfectly consistent ways.
I don't know, it just seems weird, especially because the initial rules for ferocious was that it didn't care about how many creatures with 4 power you had... except when it does, now.
Ferocious has no rules meaning whatsoever, its just a word to tie various cards together thematically.
I still think Rabblemaster applies more pressure. This card (seems to) need a build around to be good and I don't think it'll see standard play. It gets hit by almost all removal, including magma jet/spray, and doesn't have any evasion besides haste, at which point anything can really kill it. A double block from tokens or a single prowess trigger on that monks tokens while burning you to the face, speaking of, burn and tokens seem to be the deck to beat at this point in the spoilers and this guy gets destroyed by them.
Just my $.02
The Shaman seems like a great lead up after you play Rabblemaster, however. If you are fortitous enough to not have your first token removed, dropping him the turn after rabblemaster gives you two four power creatures attacking, and pumping the rabblemaster tokens to boot. And if you untap with him you always have the option of drawing more cards if you desire it.
He won't replace Rabblemaster in any build, but I can see him very much complementing it in any deck that does run Rabble. It's also a little nutty with token generators in generally, and seems very good in R/W tokens (Where a lead up of Raise the Alarms-Rabble/Outburst-Shaman is just incredibly good). People focusing on the low toughness are kind of missing the point of Theros-Khans standard. Potent effect that go unchecked that can take over the game are simply worth play, removal be damned. Hell, if this trades with a courser I'm fine because it means that my Rabblemaster got through. And I'm fairly certain that given the timing that anything that damages your opponent will still get the counter even if it dies in combat.
Simply put, this card isn't competing with anything, but rather complementing a ton of different strategies. Probably moreso than some of the other mythics in the set (Soulfire, I'm looking at you).
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
No one actually evaluates a card like you two are presuming; at least on the competitive scene. If the card is good enough to make it into a deck despite the fact that the card draw ability isn't/will never come into play then it will. If this doesn't find a home it's likely going to be because it's a 4/2 for 4 with good but not spectacular abilities.
Slith Firewalker - RR
Creature - Slith
Haste
Whenever Slith Firewalker deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/1
Sorcerer - 3R
Creature - Orc Shaman
Haste
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
4/2
Slith Firewalker is a strong card. Sorcerer may be twice the price but you get a LOT more than twice the value. Not to mention, if your deck has green or black, Sorcerer also has " : Draw a card".
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Just my $.02
Find me on TappedOut also!
Trade with me!! Always in search of cards!
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
So far only Fanatic of Xenagos with pump spells work the best. Later we'll be getting Yasova Dragonclaw with trample too.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
he's big enough to trigger Ferocious on his own,
and his triggered ability will build up your other creatures so his activated ability draws more.
It's a fairly elegant design even if it isn't super powerful.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Quite true. The only thing that has me questioning him as a 4 drop is the lack of evasion for such a heavy investment. He wants to be played in midrange, but I'm not quite seeing it as too valuable there. We'll have to see how he does
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how each element of the design works with another. I like the mythic cycle in general so far, but this is the most natural out of them.
Goblin Rablemaster , Master of the Waves and other token makers ....
We must combo him with Chandra, Pyromaster for arctic science!
also has anyone stated the super obvious yet? Training Grounds which I think should be tribal - shaman to begin with
A 4/2 for 4, even with haste is just bad without any form of evasion in the current meta. The ground gets too gummed up for you to ever think this will swing in for damage consistently. He'll be trading with 2-drops far too often.
His abilities are also the epitome of win-more. The better they are the better my position likely is within the game. Can a get a bunch of +1/+1 triggers? I'm already likely far ahead on the board. Can I draw a ton of cards? I'm already likely very far ahead on the board.. with multiple fatties.
I will say he's not a horrible late game top because he can provide CA all by himself but I'm afraid he's just going to be generally outclassed in the 4CMC slot.
By the way, the Temur khan is Yasova Dragonclaw. And the khans are mythics, but the nonlegendary hybrid cycle is rare.
On phasing:
.
4/2 Haste with that triggered ability would probably play a bit nicer if the creature type was Warrior. Standard in particular is supporting that creature type. I think that lack of creature type support will probably have him not played in that format very much.
Warriors have decent support in modern, in particular with +1/+1 counters. With Bramblewood Paragon in Modern, perhaps they didn't want this getting too cute with it (coming into play as a 5/3 with haste and trample with that ability.)
The fact that Esper had a ton of artifacts and they got a special frame probably helped. Also Wizard's research said that people got that Esper was all about artifacts, the issue is what actually happened not whether behave in perfectly consistent ways.
Ferocious has no rules meaning whatsoever, its just a word to tie various cards together thematically.
The Shaman seems like a great lead up after you play Rabblemaster, however. If you are fortitous enough to not have your first token removed, dropping him the turn after rabblemaster gives you two four power creatures attacking, and pumping the rabblemaster tokens to boot. And if you untap with him you always have the option of drawing more cards if you desire it.
He won't replace Rabblemaster in any build, but I can see him very much complementing it in any deck that does run Rabble. It's also a little nutty with token generators in generally, and seems very good in R/W tokens (Where a lead up of Raise the Alarms-Rabble/Outburst-Shaman is just incredibly good). People focusing on the low toughness are kind of missing the point of Theros-Khans standard. Potent effect that go unchecked that can take over the game are simply worth play, removal be damned. Hell, if this trades with a courser I'm fine because it means that my Rabblemaster got through. And I'm fairly certain that given the timing that anything that damages your opponent will still get the counter even if it dies in combat.
Simply put, this card isn't competing with anything, but rather complementing a ton of different strategies. Probably moreso than some of the other mythics in the set (Soulfire, I'm looking at you).
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
No one actually evaluates a card like you two are presuming; at least on the competitive scene. If the card is good enough to make it into a deck despite the fact that the card draw ability isn't/will never come into play then it will. If this doesn't find a home it's likely going to be because it's a 4/2 for 4 with good but not spectacular abilities.
Also...
Slith Firewalker - RR
Creature - Slith
Haste
Whenever Slith Firewalker deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/1
Sorcerer - 3R
Creature - Orc Shaman
Haste
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
4/2
Slith Firewalker is a strong card. Sorcerer may be twice the price but you get a LOT more than twice the value. Not to mention, if your deck has green or black, Sorcerer also has " : Draw a card".
.