4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
No one actually evaluates a card like you two are presuming; at least on the competitive scene. If the card is good enough to make it into a deck despite the fact that the card draw ability isn't/will never come into play then it will. If this doesn't find a home it's likely going to be because it's a 4/2 for 4 with good but not spectacular abilities.
I never stated that it won't see competitive play because it has the ability, and it's a logical leap to assume it. If you read into what I said, you will actually see that I pretty much said this. If it finds a deck, it will do so regardless of the draw ability, and rater because it's a solid rate for what you initially get, coupled with a relevant and good ability.
I was merely commenting on some of the people who are dismissive of the card in this thread, which there are a number, in no small part to the added ability. The competitive scene is entirely different to what I was commenting on.
I won't say it'll find a home; rather it seems at the least in line with what many decks want to already be doing, and has some potent synergies with the tokens builds. It may not find a deck, but if it doesn't it's because it's not as effective for whatever reason at doing what you want it to actually do, and that's buff your creatures.
So really, bringing up the competitive scene as though I was commenting on how people there have evaluated the card completely misses the point of what we were saying. Most people on this site, and in general, are not particularly competitive players.
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
No one actually evaluates a card like you two are presuming; at least on the competitive scene. If the card is good enough to make it into a deck despite the fact that the card draw ability isn't/will never come into play then it will. If this doesn't find a home it's likely going to be because it's a 4/2 for 4 with good but not spectacular abilities.
I never stated that it won't see competitive play because it has the ability, and it's a logical leap to assume it. If you read into what I said, you will actually see that I pretty much said this. If it finds a deck, it will do so regardless of the draw ability, and rater because it's a solid rate for what you initially get, coupled with a relevant and good ability.
I was merely commenting on some of the people who are dismissive of the card in this thread, which there are a number, in no small part to the added ability. The competitive scene is entirely different to what I was commenting on.
I won't say it'll find a home; rather it seems at the least in line with what many decks want to already be doing, and has some potent synergies with the tokens builds. It may not find a deck, but if it doesn't it's because it's not as effective for whatever reason at doing what you want it to actually do, and that's buff your creatures.
So really, bringing up the competitive scene as though I was commenting on how people there have evaluated the card completely misses the point of what we were saying. Most people on this site, and in general, are not particularly competitive players.
When were talking about spoiled cards in here, I just assume we're talking about their applications in a competitive standard environment. You need to have some threshold in which to measure a card or there'd be absolutely no point in evaluating cards at all. It doesn't have to be in regards to PTs and GPs either but simply how it may fair at FNMs or in daily events. So when rancored elf says the activated ability will "hurt the dollar value" or you say "deal breaker for quite a few people" I just find it odd. Anyway, yeah, I think this card is just a slightly more impressive Lightning Elemental, which is to say I don't think it's going to see much play at all. Needing your creatures to connect for the buff on the first ability, even if said buff has a higher ceiling than, let's say, a +1/+1 anthem effect, is still likely worse on average.
When were talking about spoiled cards in here, I just assume we're talking about their applications in a competitive standard environment. You need to have some threshold in which to measure a card or there'd be absolutely no point in evaluating cards at all. It doesn't have to be in regards to PTs and GPs either but simply how it may fair at FNMs or in daily events. So when rancored elf says the activated ability will "hurt the dollar value" or you say "deal breaker for quite a few people" I just find it odd. Anyway, yeah, I think this card is just a slightly more impressive Lightning Elemental, which is to say I don't think it's going to see much play at all. Needing your creatures to connect for the buff on the first ability, even if said buff has a higher ceiling than, let's say, a +1/+1 anthem effect, is still likely worse on average.
If it sees play, which I wouldn't doubt in the least, it's going to be in a build that takes full advantage of it's buff ability. Considering that R/W tokens is actually starting to mature, and various other tokens builds are showing up, I'm going to assume that if it appears anywhere, it will be there. As I stated, it's not a direct replacement for Rabblemaster, only that it synergizes nicely with it. It also has added bonuses with Outburst and Raise the Alarm, given a significant amount of inevitability to the decks. It is not uncommon for the deck to suicide a bit to connect for a few points of damage. The Shaman just allows you to more profitably gain off of such exchanges, as well as provide a good sized body as well. I doubt it will be as important in the various Temur monsters build, which is where it simply just gets outclassed for the rate, and you will only buff 1-2 creature much of the time, if at all.
As for the ability to draw cards affecting some people's evaluation, it' a funny bit of psycology. If a person can't efficiently utilize the whole card, they often overlook the card as a whole. A good many people will try to build around the entirety of the card, get frustrated that it doesn't work, assume the card is bad because they can't get it to work, and drop it. This isn't a very good build around card. It's a card that seemingly slots well into several decks that are played right now, with the added benefit of occasionally drawing a card in the right circumstances. In most decks, I'd be surprised if you ever draw a single card off of it. In the cases where you do, it's likely to be only 1 or 2 at most. But that is still better than not drawing anything, and it comes on a relatively relevant body with a very relevant ability. Plenty of good cards that are just good get ignored because people try too hard to use all the buffalo, and get frustrated when it doesn't work. And then somebody proves it's utility in a competitive scene, and it becomes all the rage.
What I was getting at when I said most people would be more pleased if the card draw was missing is that it would remove the mentality that you *have* to use that aspect. Even among competitive players, it's a subtle trick.
Nor am I saying that my evaluation is correct. It is an opinion after all. I can easily see this slotting into several decks. Or not. The meta may shift significantly with FtR, and what we have going on today may not be as viable.
Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
This is pretty much my only real gripe with it. I had to do a double (and even triple!) take after seeing it, just to make sure my eyes weren't screwed up and I WAS in fact seeing the mythic color on the symbol, and not the rare color. It's not that it isn't strong, it just doesn't feel like it has any particularly interesting effects.
(Not including Haste) the two abilities on this card push in different directions.
One says 'Play me with tokens'. The other says 'Play me in a bigger midrange deck'.
I can see situations where a deck might play this as a 4/2 haste (worth three mana on its own) with the added text "All your creatures wish they were as good as Slith Firewalker".
I can also see situations where a deck might play a lot of lands with the intent to use the card draw to end a game they are already winning.
But these situations are almost never going to be in the same deck.
Of particular note - I expect a good number of activations of the card draw ability to be responded to by the opponent killing the Shaman so you draw zero cards, not one (or one instead of two). That will be quite the tempo blowout.
(Not including Haste) the two abilities on this card push in different directions.
One says 'Play me with tokens'. The other says 'Play me in a bigger midrange deck'.
Not really. At 4 mana, it's hard to believe one doesn't have any creatures around to make use of the ability. And if those creatures grow to 4 power, they add to the second ability.
The end result may not be optimal, but they certainly do work together.
(Not including Haste) the two abilities on this card push in different directions.
One says 'Play me with tokens'. The other says 'Play me in a bigger midrange deck'.
Not really. At 4 mana, it's hard to believe one doesn't have any creatures around to make use of the ability. And if those creatures grow to 4 power, they add to the second ability.
The end result may not be optimal, but they certainly do work together.
This might come up once or twice in a hundred games, but most of the time if your other creatures are a baseline of 1 or 2 power and you grow them to 4 with the counters, your opponent is probably at 0 life by now.
Maybe if there's a Constructed-quality 2 power creature printed that's inherently hard to block and that works in the same deck as this guy it might happen a bit more.
Oh and for what it is worth, this guy is the most absurd followup to an unanswered Goblin Rabblemaster ever.
4/2 haste for 3R is flirting with powerful, even by recently powercreeped standards. The triggered ability is no small boon. The activated ability pleases me as a designer, nice to see them finally move into this design space, but I think most players will hate it and it will hurt the dollar value of the card. Players don't like abilities they can't fully use every time they play the card. Even though the creature would be good enough in a mono red deck, nobody will play it in one, because they'll feel they're "missing out" on part of the card. On paper though, great card. Probably has no business being mythic, but that's just how things go nowadays.
Agreed. I actually think people would be more pleased with the card if it didn't have the card draw ability at all. People see an abilty that may never come up, and just assume the card isn't terribly good because they can't profitably use that one ability.
Nevermind that a 4/2 haster that permanently pumps your board is actually incredibly good, particularly in the myriad of decks that run tons of token generation, meaning that you can suicide early and often and profit from it. The one awkward ability that will come up only now and then is actually a deal breaker for quite a few people, regardless of the rest of the text on the card.
No one actually evaluates a card like you two are presuming; at least on the competitive scene. If the card is good enough to make it into a deck despite the fact that the card draw ability isn't/will never come into play then it will. If this doesn't find a home it's likely going to be because it's a 4/2 for 4 with good but not spectacular abilities.
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
It's also fairly common to come up when discussing planeswalkers, where inevitably a good number of people look at the ultimate, see at either unobtainable or not game-winning enough, and call the planeswalker bad for it regardless of any other abilities.
As I said, people really don't like the idea of leaving something unused on a given card, regardless of whatever else is going on. Things like an added ability that may never come up tend to trick people into a certain mindset.
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
Metagames change and so do our evaluations with it.
Were we wrong in dismissing Desecration Demon as unplayable when it was spoiled when it turned out to very much be a staple later on? The card WAS legitimately terrible while Lingering Souls was legal and the environment shifted and it's playability with it. Blood Baron simply was'nt that good of a card and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it turned out being the powerhouse that it was.
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Meta does indeed change the playability of cards. This guy could be really good even without the other clause. But the fact that it survives when you untap is also relevant. It means you may not want to cast another spell again.
Slith Firewalker is okay, but even my casual decks that could use him Strangleroot Geist is better. Starts bigger and survives against a lot of removal (coming back stronger.)
For those interested, here is a fairly strong creature +1/+1 counter deck I have been using in Modern games at home (tier 1.5 and lower decks.) Needless to say the Shaman will find its way in there.
This card will be good. Assuming Heroic is a thing, they usually don't stick too many creatures and they are always attacking, so this guy coupled with rabblemaster is going to be awesome. A turn 2 non hasted knuckleblade with this guy on turn 3 is also going to be house. Especially if you follow it up with a hasty 5 drop.
Unless I am mistaken, the card doesn't have to attack to get the counter buff, so you don't have to ram him into a creature on the turn you play him. You could even wait till turn 5 with stubborn denial if needed. He also works well with the green siege. With 4 mana, you can potentially draw 2 cards a turn (minimum)
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
Baron was terrible until Bonfire rotated and Mizzium Mortars fell out of favor. Then when the red sweepers stopped being played in favor of single target removal, Baron had its chance to shine. But when Baron was spoiled, a 4/4 lifelink pro-white pro-black creature with cute trinket text was not playable outside block. This forum got that right.
This card doesn't have Baron-style trinket text. It instead has two fairly non-synergistic abilities that want to be in different decks to each other.
My assessment is that this card isn't good enough now.
Nevertheless, I still appreciate this card in my Temur Aggro list. T1 Elf. T2 Heir of the Wilds. T3 Knuckleblade / Flamewake Phoenix. T4 this.
Heir of the Wilds hardly gets blocked. Flamewake Phoenix too because of early flyer. Sure, Shaman of the Great Hunt will die to just about anything in combat, but at least some of the guys may benefit from it.
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
Baron was terrible until Bonfire rotated and Mizzium Mortars fell out of favor. Then when the red sweepers stopped being played in favor of single target removal, Baron had its chance to shine. But when Baron was spoiled, a 4/4 lifelink pro-white pro-black creature with cute trinket text was not playable outside block. This forum got that right.
Which is true about Blood Baron, but most people here aren't particularly discussing the actual standard meta game as it currently is, and instead vaguely referencing the potency of the abilities.
The best analogue I can find for the card is Hero of Oxid Ridge, and less so Hellrider, both seeing play during their respective standard tenure in decks attempting to go wide. Of course it isn't a complete analogue, but this sort of creature has been played in the past in decks going wide. It lacks the immediacy of either, but provides a better long-game. In a format where many decks may only be providing 1 relevant blocker at that point, it is not unreasonable to assume some number get through. Even suiciding it into a Courser still provides the benefit to your other creatures, after all. And I would gladly trade this with a courser if it meant 2-3 creatures also getting a +1/+1 counter on them.
This card doesn't have Baron-style trinket text. It instead has two fairly non-synergistic abilities that want to be in different decks to each other.
Which is exactly the problem that rancored_elf and I are trying to address; people are viewing the two abilities as being non-synergistic, and thus you will never be able to utilize them both in the same deck. Which is likely true. I am choosing to completely ignore the card draw ability, which is largely irrelevant, and look at everything else. And what you have is an effect that is more than reasonable for the cost, which works quite well in a number of decks currently played. It benefits Rabblemaster, Hordeling Outburst, and Raise the Alarms most noticeably, all of which see play. Couple this with a relevant body that at least trades with Courser (And has haste, meaning it attacks the same turn Rabblemaster can) means that you can quite likely get a courser off the table and provide a bonus for your going wide strategy. Which is pretty good, and I will say likely good enough to see play in the decks that want this effect.
The card draw is irrelevant, really. It's clunky, in a color combination that isn't particularly strong right now, and likely too slow to matter most of the time. At best it may occasionally draw a card. But frankly, ignore it. It's unimportant. It's not the splashiest mythic when you do look at it that way, but it gives one a much cleaner look at where the card belongs in the current meta game. Which is likely to be in R/W tokens or some such deck that wants to go wide.
My assessment is that this card isn't good enough now.
I disagree, quite obviously. It's not going to go in every red deck. Jeskai Tokens doesn't care about it, as Ascendancy is just better. Some Mardu decks likely don't care as much, as they have both Butcher and Sorin to provide a huge push in power at 4 mana. More aggro versions of Mardu and R/W tokens will likely utilize it immediately. If RDW ever comes back it will also.
This card is powerful and everything, but I find it kind of unsettling. I mean, you can slap a bunch of random abilities onto a creature but eventually it stops making sense. How is some red dude with an axe drawing us cards? Temur is such a flavor fail in general, everything is super clunky.
A red dude with axe is naturally good in drawing BLOOD.
BLOOD is what comes out of you, when you get hit by a CAR.
A CAR is just one letter away from CARD.
Therefore, axe is perfectly good tool to draw cards. Can't argue with logic!
Oh... I get it now, so people here evaluate cards based on the current meta without taking any consideration on the future ? That's ridiculous way to cover your mistakes. It's not like every set is make if the current meta in mind.
If you evaluation of DD is "He is good but not while lingering souls is around" then that's a accurate evaluation of the card. "DD is 1 dollar trash rare" is not and no change of circumstance justifies that miss evaluation and rookie mistake.
This card is pretty good, it won't see much play now for the solely reason green GRx is not a aggro deck, because of the whole Ramp/Courser paradigm and the lack of aggro creatures in those colors. But a creature that has immediate impact and demands immediate answer is precisely what those 30 creature decks wants to play and now they have one. When the plan is play more threats then answers, any threat in your deck may stick for several turns. Those decks don't exist right now, but one will appear sooner or later.
Oh come on, are people talking down this card just to pick it up cheap?
Shaman and another big creature.
Charge in.
You block.
Everything dies.
In response to the blocks, I activate shaman's card draw ability.
Net result, two of my guys die, two of your guys die, I draw two cards. Seems like I just one for oned you and gained card advantage. Follow up with the two drop 4/1 blue creature on second main phase looking at an empty board. Have a nice day.
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UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I never stated that it won't see competitive play because it has the ability, and it's a logical leap to assume it. If you read into what I said, you will actually see that I pretty much said this. If it finds a deck, it will do so regardless of the draw ability, and rater because it's a solid rate for what you initially get, coupled with a relevant and good ability.
I was merely commenting on some of the people who are dismissive of the card in this thread, which there are a number, in no small part to the added ability. The competitive scene is entirely different to what I was commenting on.
I won't say it'll find a home; rather it seems at the least in line with what many decks want to already be doing, and has some potent synergies with the tokens builds. It may not find a deck, but if it doesn't it's because it's not as effective for whatever reason at doing what you want it to actually do, and that's buff your creatures.
So really, bringing up the competitive scene as though I was commenting on how people there have evaluated the card completely misses the point of what we were saying. Most people on this site, and in general, are not particularly competitive players.
When were talking about spoiled cards in here, I just assume we're talking about their applications in a competitive standard environment. You need to have some threshold in which to measure a card or there'd be absolutely no point in evaluating cards at all. It doesn't have to be in regards to PTs and GPs either but simply how it may fair at FNMs or in daily events. So when rancored elf says the activated ability will "hurt the dollar value" or you say "deal breaker for quite a few people" I just find it odd. Anyway, yeah, I think this card is just a slightly more impressive Lightning Elemental, which is to say I don't think it's going to see much play at all. Needing your creatures to connect for the buff on the first ability, even if said buff has a higher ceiling than, let's say, a +1/+1 anthem effect, is still likely worse on average.
If it sees play, which I wouldn't doubt in the least, it's going to be in a build that takes full advantage of it's buff ability. Considering that R/W tokens is actually starting to mature, and various other tokens builds are showing up, I'm going to assume that if it appears anywhere, it will be there. As I stated, it's not a direct replacement for Rabblemaster, only that it synergizes nicely with it. It also has added bonuses with Outburst and Raise the Alarm, given a significant amount of inevitability to the decks. It is not uncommon for the deck to suicide a bit to connect for a few points of damage. The Shaman just allows you to more profitably gain off of such exchanges, as well as provide a good sized body as well. I doubt it will be as important in the various Temur monsters build, which is where it simply just gets outclassed for the rate, and you will only buff 1-2 creature much of the time, if at all.
As for the ability to draw cards affecting some people's evaluation, it' a funny bit of psycology. If a person can't efficiently utilize the whole card, they often overlook the card as a whole. A good many people will try to build around the entirety of the card, get frustrated that it doesn't work, assume the card is bad because they can't get it to work, and drop it. This isn't a very good build around card. It's a card that seemingly slots well into several decks that are played right now, with the added benefit of occasionally drawing a card in the right circumstances. In most decks, I'd be surprised if you ever draw a single card off of it. In the cases where you do, it's likely to be only 1 or 2 at most. But that is still better than not drawing anything, and it comes on a relatively relevant body with a very relevant ability. Plenty of good cards that are just good get ignored because people try too hard to use all the buffalo, and get frustrated when it doesn't work. And then somebody proves it's utility in a competitive scene, and it becomes all the rage.
What I was getting at when I said most people would be more pleased if the card draw was missing is that it would remove the mentality that you *have* to use that aspect. Even among competitive players, it's a subtle trick.
Nor am I saying that my evaluation is correct. It is an opinion after all. I can easily see this slotting into several decks. Or not. The meta may shift significantly with FtR, and what we have going on today may not be as viable.
This is pretty much my only real gripe with it. I had to do a double (and even triple!) take after seeing it, just to make sure my eyes weren't screwed up and I WAS in fact seeing the mythic color on the symbol, and not the rare color. It's not that it isn't strong, it just doesn't feel like it has any particularly interesting effects.
One says 'Play me with tokens'. The other says 'Play me in a bigger midrange deck'.
I can see situations where a deck might play this as a 4/2 haste (worth three mana on its own) with the added text "All your creatures wish they were as good as Slith Firewalker".
I can also see situations where a deck might play a lot of lands with the intent to use the card draw to end a game they are already winning.
But these situations are almost never going to be in the same deck.
Of particular note - I expect a good number of activations of the card draw ability to be responded to by the opponent killing the Shaman so you draw zero cards, not one (or one instead of two). That will be quite the tempo blowout.
Not really. At 4 mana, it's hard to believe one doesn't have any creatures around to make use of the ability. And if those creatures grow to 4 power, they add to the second ability.
The end result may not be optimal, but they certainly do work together.
This might come up once or twice in a hundred games, but most of the time if your other creatures are a baseline of 1 or 2 power and you grow them to 4 with the counters, your opponent is probably at 0 life by now.
Maybe if there's a Constructed-quality 2 power creature printed that's inherently hard to block and that works in the same deck as this guy it might happen a bit more.
Oh and for what it is worth, this guy is the most absurd followup to an unanswered Goblin Rabblemaster ever.
Please. 90% of this site was saying how horrible Blood Baron of Vizkopa was because you'd never use its "When you have 30 or more life" clause. Ignoring that it was a lifelinker that also had protection from the two best colors for removal and a huge ass to protect it from the third.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It's also fairly common to come up when discussing planeswalkers, where inevitably a good number of people look at the ultimate, see at either unobtainable or not game-winning enough, and call the planeswalker bad for it regardless of any other abilities.
As I said, people really don't like the idea of leaving something unused on a given card, regardless of whatever else is going on. Things like an added ability that may never come up tend to trick people into a certain mindset.
Metagames change and so do our evaluations with it.
Were we wrong in dismissing Desecration Demon as unplayable when it was spoiled when it turned out to very much be a staple later on? The card WAS legitimately terrible while Lingering Souls was legal and the environment shifted and it's playability with it. Blood Baron simply was'nt that good of a card and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it turned out being the powerhouse that it was.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Let's not assume anything about the new Shaman.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's not as good as a 3-drop that provides CA and clocks your opponent without any extra investment.
Slith Firewalker is okay, but even my casual decks that could use him Strangleroot Geist is better. Starts bigger and survives against a lot of removal (coming back stronger.)
For those interested, here is a fairly strong creature +1/+1 counter deck I have been using in Modern games at home (tier 1.5 and lower decks.) Needless to say the Shaman will find its way in there.
3 Bloodhall Ooze
4 Bramblewood Paragon
4 Experiment One
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Thrill-Kill Assassin
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mutant's Prey
3 Forest
1 Dismember
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Woodland Cemetery
1 Mountain
1 Fanatic of Xenagos
1 Volt Charge
2 Llanowar Reborn
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
Unless I am mistaken, the card doesn't have to attack to get the counter buff, so you don't have to ram him into a creature on the turn you play him. You could even wait till turn 5 with stubborn denial if needed. He also works well with the green siege. With 4 mana, you can potentially draw 2 cards a turn (minimum)
Baron was terrible until Bonfire rotated and Mizzium Mortars fell out of favor. Then when the red sweepers stopped being played in favor of single target removal, Baron had its chance to shine. But when Baron was spoiled, a 4/4 lifelink pro-white pro-black creature with cute trinket text was not playable outside block. This forum got that right.
This card doesn't have Baron-style trinket text. It instead has two fairly non-synergistic abilities that want to be in different decks to each other.
My assessment is that this card isn't good enough now.
Heir of the Wilds hardly gets blocked. Flamewake Phoenix too because of early flyer. Sure, Shaman of the Great Hunt will die to just about anything in combat, but at least some of the guys may benefit from it.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Which is true about Blood Baron, but most people here aren't particularly discussing the actual standard meta game as it currently is, and instead vaguely referencing the potency of the abilities.
The best analogue I can find for the card is Hero of Oxid Ridge, and less so Hellrider, both seeing play during their respective standard tenure in decks attempting to go wide. Of course it isn't a complete analogue, but this sort of creature has been played in the past in decks going wide. It lacks the immediacy of either, but provides a better long-game. In a format where many decks may only be providing 1 relevant blocker at that point, it is not unreasonable to assume some number get through. Even suiciding it into a Courser still provides the benefit to your other creatures, after all. And I would gladly trade this with a courser if it meant 2-3 creatures also getting a +1/+1 counter on them.
Which is exactly the problem that rancored_elf and I are trying to address; people are viewing the two abilities as being non-synergistic, and thus you will never be able to utilize them both in the same deck. Which is likely true. I am choosing to completely ignore the card draw ability, which is largely irrelevant, and look at everything else. And what you have is an effect that is more than reasonable for the cost, which works quite well in a number of decks currently played. It benefits Rabblemaster, Hordeling Outburst, and Raise the Alarms most noticeably, all of which see play. Couple this with a relevant body that at least trades with Courser (And has haste, meaning it attacks the same turn Rabblemaster can) means that you can quite likely get a courser off the table and provide a bonus for your going wide strategy. Which is pretty good, and I will say likely good enough to see play in the decks that want this effect.
The card draw is irrelevant, really. It's clunky, in a color combination that isn't particularly strong right now, and likely too slow to matter most of the time. At best it may occasionally draw a card. But frankly, ignore it. It's unimportant. It's not the splashiest mythic when you do look at it that way, but it gives one a much cleaner look at where the card belongs in the current meta game. Which is likely to be in R/W tokens or some such deck that wants to go wide.
I disagree, quite obviously. It's not going to go in every red deck. Jeskai Tokens doesn't care about it, as Ascendancy is just better. Some Mardu decks likely don't care as much, as they have both Butcher and Sorin to provide a huge push in power at 4 mana. More aggro versions of Mardu and R/W tokens will likely utilize it immediately. If RDW ever comes back it will also.
A red dude with axe is naturally good in drawing BLOOD.
BLOOD is what comes out of you, when you get hit by a CAR.
A CAR is just one letter away from CARD.
Therefore, axe is perfectly good tool to draw cards. Can't argue with logic!
If you evaluation of DD is "He is good but not while lingering souls is around" then that's a accurate evaluation of the card. "DD is 1 dollar trash rare" is not and no change of circumstance justifies that miss evaluation and rookie mistake.
This card is pretty good, it won't see much play now for the solely reason green GRx is not a aggro deck, because of the whole Ramp/Courser paradigm and the lack of aggro creatures in those colors. But a creature that has immediate impact and demands immediate answer is precisely what those 30 creature decks wants to play and now they have one. When the plan is play more threats then answers, any threat in your deck may stick for several turns. Those decks don't exist right now, but one will appear sooner or later.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Shaman and another big creature.
Charge in.
You block.
Everything dies.
In response to the blocks, I activate shaman's card draw ability.
Net result, two of my guys die, two of your guys die, I draw two cards. Seems like I just one for oned you and gained card advantage. Follow up with the two drop 4/1 blue creature on second main phase looking at an empty board. Have a nice day.