I think their design is OK, just think it's odd this one does not have its clan mechanic.
It's because Delve is the Sultai Clan Mechanic and the Dragon isn't the clan. Mardu and Abzan are using their Dragon's mechanic in FRF. Dash and Bolster sort of evolve into Raid and Outlast, for KTK. Jeskai Temur and Sultai have already developed their own mechanics, but the dragons have a very early, (so early it hasn't even solidified into a mechanic) version of the Mechanic we'll see in DTK. Or my second theory is the Dragons will have Delve and Prowess and Ferocious, but the Brood Mothers/Leaders are moving in a new direction away from these Mechanics and into the new ones we'll see in DTK. Remember FRF was designed last so they already know the new Mechanics for DTK when they made this card
Either way I expect the B/W and R/G dragon to not use Prowess and Ferocious.
I don't think we'll get Doomwake locked into a mechanic, that would just kill aggro
I don't understand what you mean by the dragon isn't the clan. Dash is the Mardu ability for this set, and Bolster is Abzan. One of the concepts of Khans was how the clans each represent an attribute of the dragons. It is weird that they only would show that on some of the dragons.
Nothing represents ruthlessness more than removing something explicitly. "Delve" could show how even death is not enough to prevent you from being used as a dragon/the Sultai see fit.
Ander: Currently, smart money is that there is one mechanic in KTK for each Clan (that we have seen), a different mechanic in DTK for each Brood, and FRF mixes and matches them.
MaRo will be discussing this in his article next week.
Until then, the best guess is that they did not want to have a Limited environment with 10 mechanics in it (either FKK or DDF), and so didn't put all of the KTK and DTK mechanics in FRF.
It's very telling that the first two Dragons spoiled were the two Dragons in the broods with mechanics from DTK.
Also, keep a lookout, but to date, I can't think of any Black cards with Bolster or White cards with Dash. If this holds up, this can be seen as additional evidence that Bolster and Dash are DTK abilities.
The art on these new dragons is bad and the abilities are really bland. Not liking it at all.
I'm definitely liking the art. The technical skill is, as usual, excellent and their appearances have a lot of character while still being dragon-like.
I agree they're mechanically limited, but a lot of people were expecting some dragon tribal to come out of the Tarkir cycle who will be very happy with these dudes. Not everything is meant for everyone.
While I was rather hoping to get a grind/trepanation blade effect off of this, flying and hexproof with potential for removal is nice enough for me to give her a shot in Lazav.
Ander: Currently, smart money is that there is one mechanic in KTK for each Clan (that we have seen), a different mechanic in DTK for each Brood, and FRF mixes and matches them.
MaRo will be discussing this in his article next week.
Until then, the best guess is that they did not want to have a Limited environment with 10 mechanics in it (either FKK or DDF), and so didn't put all of the KTK and DTK mechanics in FRF.
It's very telling that the first two Dragons spoiled were the two Dragons in the broods with mechanics from DTK.
Also, keep a lookout, but to date, I can't think of any Black cards with Bolster or White cards with Dash. If this holds up, this can be seen as additional evidence that Bolster and Dash are DTK abilities.
Using the same mechanic two sets in a row can not result in 10 mechanics.
Bolster shows up by itself.
Dash shows up by itself.
Does that make Doomwake ahead of its time? When x, doomwake opponents' creatures? Not a named mechanic since Delve returns in this set. Does that make hexproof the Sultai based brood"s mechanic? That'd be poor design.
It makes almost no sense to not have this dragon have delve. The recycling of Delve plus the fact that the clans are based on dragons themselves makes it weird.
These dragons are so...un-splashy. I played through Invasion. I played through Kamigawa. I played through Planar Chaos.
ALL OF THOSE dragons are more interesting than any of these. Art (*OMG* the art), Abilities, Uniqueness. I mean they're just so..generic?
These feel like they belong in a CORE set, hardly feel like 'OMG THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF DRAGONS!!" Is it really just me?
I agree completely. They feel french vanilla to me. If they were being that lazy they could have added a new mechanic just for the legendary dragons, which might them feel a little bit special. The Khans are much more distinctive, even Yasova Dragonclaw, another non-mythic rare in the same set.
I know that when someone plays Yasova Dragonclaw at the pre-release an opponent might say, "Oh, Yasova. Nice pull."
When people see these dragons they're going to say "Oh, you got the UB one. What does that do again?" There's no distinctive legendary feel to these.
I don't understand what a legendary creature is suppose to "feel" like.
They are each legendary in every sense of the word. Maybe the design isn't the greatest but they certainly fulfill legendary. Nothing does what they do(obviously you can find similar cards but that applies to every card).
Could they be a little more complex/impactful? Yeah I kind of wish they were more interesting. But they certainly.seem effective.
Ander: Currently, smart money is that there is one mechanic in KTK for each Clan (that we have seen), a different mechanic in DTK for each Brood, and FRF mixes and matches them.
MaRo will be discussing this in his article next week.
Until then, the best guess is that they did not want to have a Limited environment with 10 mechanics in it (either FKK or DDF), and so didn't put all of the KTK and DTK mechanics in FRF.
It's very telling that the first two Dragons spoiled were the two Dragons in the broods with mechanics from DTK.
Also, keep a lookout, but to date, I can't think of any Black cards with Bolster or White cards with Dash. If this holds up, this can be seen as additional evidence that Bolster and Dash are DTK abilities.
Using the same mechanic two sets in a row can not result in 10 mechanics.
Bolster shows up by itself.
Dash shows up by itself.
Does that make Doomwake ahead of its time? When x, doomwake opponents' creatures? Not a named mechanic since Delve returns in this set. Does that make hexproof the Sultai based brood"s mechanic? That'd be poor design.
It makes almost no sense to not have this dragon have delve. The recycling of Delve plus the fact that the clans are based on dragons themselves makes it weird.
You missed my point. The reason that the RB and WG Dragons have a mechanic on them and the other three do not is because those mechanics are associated with DTK (mechanically), not KTK.
I'll put it down point by point.
1) KTK has one mechanic per Clan.
2) DTK has a different mechanic per Brood.
3) WotC chose not to have all ten of these mechanics show up in FRF probably because of complexity concerns in Limited
4) Therefore, they had to choose some but not all of the mechanics from each set to show up in FRF.
5) In FKK, we will have Outlast, Bolster, Prowess, Delve, Raid, Dash, Ferocious, Morph, and Manifest.
6) In DDF, we will have Bolster, Dash, Prowess, Delve, Ferocious, Morph (probably), Manifest, Blue Brood Mechanic, Black Brood Mechanic, Green Brood Mechanic.
It would seem that they were balanced so that there would be a total of ten mechanics in each Draft environment.
Why did everyone think this dragon would have delve? Was it ever stated that it would, or that all of the dragons would have their clan's ability? I haven't been fallowing spoiler season super tightly, but I don't remember reading that anywhere. The first two dragons we saw only had their clan mechanics because it suited the cards well. That wasn't indicative of being part of the cycle at all. They do this all the time, especially with legendary cycles; remember the legends from RtR block? Very few of them had their guild's ability, but a couple did because it played well. People are just getting disappointed because they were spotting patterns where there actually weren't any.
About the card though, I really like these dragons. I really want to find a way to cheat one other dragon out realistically in a UBx (control?) shell with this girl to wreak screw around in an FNM.
Ander: It's slightly disheartening, but the issue is that the Dragons shouldn't have Khan mechanics on them. Now, it's possible that they'll bend it in FRF--after all, we do have non-Dragons with Bolster and Dash--but it remains that this Dragon does not have Delve.
I don't think it needs Delve; it's perfectly fair for its cost.
I will say that I will be incredibly surprised if the GR Dragon has Ferocious or the WU Dragon has Prowess.
Ander: It's slightly disheartening, but the issue is that the Dragons shouldn't have Khan mechanics on them.
I might be missing something, but why? Just because they're enemies? What's to say the Clans couldn't have still copied/stolen their techniques, or perhaps Ugin taught those as well?
I think Shriveling your opponents creatures with each attacking Dragon is plenty impressive. Try playing the card in the environment it was designed for before judging it against the thousands of cards that came before it.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Because the Broods clearly have different abilities than the clans. Dash and Bolster aren't clan abilities, they're brood abilities. (And from a mechanical stand point, it would make very little sense to change 2 of the abilities, but not the other 3. Presumably, we aren't get introduced to the other Brood abilities until DTK, since it would be really hard to have a small pivot set with 10 different mechanics, which all have to work really well with both KTK mechanics AND DTK mechanics).
Also, speaking of brood abilities, anyone notice the brilliance of Dash -> Raid and Bolster -> Outlast? The clans didn't whole sale steal abilities from the dragons, nor did they create evolved versions of the brood's abilities. They adapted to the abilities of the respective dragons that they worshiped. The Mardu found ways to empower themselves when joining the battle after an attack had been made (charging in after, say, a creature that dashes across the field of battle and then leaves the fray until its next strike). The Abzan figured out how to provide their followers with greater power if they were bolstered beyond their normal capabilities (because let's be honest, outlast was only a mechanic so that there was an excuse to have the +1/+1 counter lords).
Considering this, we can probably extrapolate quite a bit about what the U/B, R/G, and U/W broods' abilities will be, since it's likely that they'll be themed in such a way that the correlated clan abilities work in a synergistic manner that builds off of the brood ability. But figuring out exactly what they'll be would be something to talk about over in the speculation thread, not here, so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Sorry for the tangent!
This dragon at 10UB delve would have been cool but I'm glad they (assumingly) aren't using the returning mechanics for temur/jeskai. Just because I can't imagine any good use or flavor for a dragon with Ferocious.
These dragons are so...un-splashy. I played through Invasion. I played through Kamigawa. I played through Planar Chaos.
ALL OF THOSE dragons are more interesting than any of these. Art (*OMG* the art), Abilities, Uniqueness. I mean they're just so..generic?
These feel like they belong in a CORE set, hardly feel like 'OMG THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF DRAGONS!!" Is it really just me?
Nope, it's not just you.
Indeed. It's not that the Dragons are bad, as the ones we've seen are pretty decent and seemingly at least on the verge of playable in standard. However, the billing of the dragons invoked a feeling of Rith, The Awakener, Crosis, The Purger, or Dromar, The Banisher(Conversely, Teneb, The Harvester et al). And what they decided on instead is more in line with Flameblast Dragon or Two-Headed Dragon. The latter aren't bad cards, just underwhelming and not particularly interesting with very linear abilities. The former, while not stellar in every regard, still are unique entities with unique abilities.
I feel they dropped the ball significantly, and didn't do a whole lot to actually make any of the dragons seem unique. The abilities are just "meh". The ones we have seen are fine creatures, but frankly that's all they are. There is nothing particularly thought provoking that makes me squee in delight, or get a sense of their power. I feel they could have done something a bit more tantalizing with them.
Now i have to make a campaing : "Heroclix make a Heroclix-magic set based on the world of Tarkir " man i would love sculpts of Zurgo , the other khans and the Dragons
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I don't understand what you mean by the dragon isn't the clan. Dash is the Mardu ability for this set, and Bolster is Abzan. One of the concepts of Khans was how the clans each represent an attribute of the dragons. It is weird that they only would show that on some of the dragons.
Nothing represents ruthlessness more than removing something explicitly. "Delve" could show how even death is not enough to prevent you from being used as a dragon/the Sultai see fit.
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MaRo will be discussing this in his article next week.
Until then, the best guess is that they did not want to have a Limited environment with 10 mechanics in it (either FKK or DDF), and so didn't put all of the KTK and DTK mechanics in FRF.
It's very telling that the first two Dragons spoiled were the two Dragons in the broods with mechanics from DTK.
Also, keep a lookout, but to date, I can't think of any Black cards with Bolster or White cards with Dash. If this holds up, this can be seen as additional evidence that Bolster and Dash are DTK abilities.
Nope, it's not just you.
Each legendary dragon leads a dragon lineage with its own watermark.
I'm pretty sure Dragons of Tarkir is going to have a bunch of those new watermarks and no Clan watermarks to mirror Khans.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I'm definitely liking the art. The technical skill is, as usual, excellent and their appearances have a lot of character while still being dragon-like.
I agree they're mechanically limited, but a lot of people were expecting some dragon tribal to come out of the Tarkir cycle who will be very happy with these dudes. Not everything is meant for everyone.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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Using the same mechanic two sets in a row can not result in 10 mechanics.
Bolster shows up by itself.
Dash shows up by itself.
Does that make Doomwake ahead of its time? When x, doomwake opponents' creatures? Not a named mechanic since Delve returns in this set. Does that make hexproof the Sultai based brood"s mechanic? That'd be poor design.
It makes almost no sense to not have this dragon have delve. The recycling of Delve plus the fact that the clans are based on dragons themselves makes it weird.
The art on this one is fantastic though. I love the colors and textures of the background. Interesting dragon design too.
U/R Delver
I agree completely. They feel french vanilla to me. If they were being that lazy they could have added a new mechanic just for the legendary dragons, which might them feel a little bit special. The Khans are much more distinctive, even Yasova Dragonclaw, another non-mythic rare in the same set.
I know that when someone plays Yasova Dragonclaw at the pre-release an opponent might say, "Oh, Yasova. Nice pull."
When people see these dragons they're going to say "Oh, you got the UB one. What does that do again?" There's no distinctive legendary feel to these.
They are each legendary in every sense of the word. Maybe the design isn't the greatest but they certainly fulfill legendary. Nothing does what they do(obviously you can find similar cards but that applies to every card).
Could they be a little more complex/impactful? Yeah I kind of wish they were more interesting. But they certainly.seem effective.
You missed my point. The reason that the RB and WG Dragons have a mechanic on them and the other three do not is because those mechanics are associated with DTK (mechanically), not KTK.
I'll put it down point by point.
1) KTK has one mechanic per Clan.
2) DTK has a different mechanic per Brood.
3) WotC chose not to have all ten of these mechanics show up in FRF probably because of complexity concerns in Limited
4) Therefore, they had to choose some but not all of the mechanics from each set to show up in FRF.
5) In FKK, we will have Outlast, Bolster, Prowess, Delve, Raid, Dash, Ferocious, Morph, and Manifest.
6) In DDF, we will have Bolster, Dash, Prowess, Delve, Ferocious, Morph (probably), Manifest, Blue Brood Mechanic, Black Brood Mechanic, Green Brood Mechanic.
It would seem that they were balanced so that there would be a total of ten mechanics in each Draft environment.
It does not give the flavor of the clans being based on aspects of the dragon. It merely presents their mechanics as a gimmick.
Clan mechanics should show up fairly often on dragon cards as well.
I can not call the dragon cycle a true cycle if only 2 of them have clan mechanics and the rest have random effects.
About the card though, I really like these dragons. I really want to find a way to cheat one other dragon out realistically in a UBx (control?) shell with this girl to wreak screw around in an FNM.
But at 6 mana, this is pretty pretty underwhelming and it hurts that this doesnt have Delve.
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I don't think it needs Delve; it's perfectly fair for its cost.
I will say that I will be incredibly surprised if the GR Dragon has Ferocious or the WU Dragon has Prowess.
I might be missing something, but why? Just because they're enemies? What's to say the Clans couldn't have still copied/stolen their techniques, or perhaps Ugin taught those as well?
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Also, speaking of brood abilities, anyone notice the brilliance of Dash -> Raid and Bolster -> Outlast? The clans didn't whole sale steal abilities from the dragons, nor did they create evolved versions of the brood's abilities. They adapted to the abilities of the respective dragons that they worshiped. The Mardu found ways to empower themselves when joining the battle after an attack had been made (charging in after, say, a creature that dashes across the field of battle and then leaves the fray until its next strike). The Abzan figured out how to provide their followers with greater power if they were bolstered beyond their normal capabilities (because let's be honest, outlast was only a mechanic so that there was an excuse to have the +1/+1 counter lords).
Considering this, we can probably extrapolate quite a bit about what the U/B, R/G, and U/W broods' abilities will be, since it's likely that they'll be themed in such a way that the correlated clan abilities work in a synergistic manner that builds off of the brood ability. But figuring out exactly what they'll be would be something to talk about over in the speculation thread, not here, so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Sorry for the tangent!
Indeed. It's not that the Dragons are bad, as the ones we've seen are pretty decent and seemingly at least on the verge of playable in standard. However, the billing of the dragons invoked a feeling of Rith, The Awakener, Crosis, The Purger, or Dromar, The Banisher(Conversely, Teneb, The Harvester et al). And what they decided on instead is more in line with Flameblast Dragon or Two-Headed Dragon. The latter aren't bad cards, just underwhelming and not particularly interesting with very linear abilities. The former, while not stellar in every regard, still are unique entities with unique abilities.
I feel they dropped the ball significantly, and didn't do a whole lot to actually make any of the dragons seem unique. The abilities are just "meh". The ones we have seen are fine creatures, but frankly that's all they are. There is nothing particularly thought provoking that makes me squee in delight, or get a sense of their power. I feel they could have done something a bit more tantalizing with them.