I build a deck that curves out at 6. It wins when I cast the 6 drop. I add an 8 drop. It still wins, but also wins if I cast the 6 drop into the 8 drop. Why did I add the 8 drop. Win more.
No.... that's bad deckbuilding, not win more.
Agreed. Control decks in particular can make good use of expensive finishers if they stall the game out long enough. Without colorless ramp or at the least good topdeck manipulation to ensure you consistently hit land drops Ugin certainly becomes more difficult to cast outside of green. Still, we have seen UB control and to a lesser extent UW control have the ability to stabilize consistently to where they have 8 lands. They can make games go long.
What these decks are missing is a good way to finish the game once they do. And Ugin provides just that. It all depends on what else is printed in the set, but if the format remains as slow and mid-range as it is now I wouldn't be surprised he is a 1-2 of in every control deck.
From a business point of view, there's absolutely zero chance we see Zen fetches in Fate Reforged or Dragons of Tarkir.
Fetches sell a set/block on their own. There's no way the cycle will be milked under a year. Look at the painlands. They're slow releasing it with purpose.
Lastly, Ugin is a walker that is better cast on t8 (or later) rather than as early as possible.
I build a deck that curves out at 6. It wins when I cast the 6 drop. I add an 8 drop. It still wins, but also wins if I cast the 6 drop into the 8 drop. Why did I add the 8 drop. Win more.
That's not what "win more" traditionally means. A "win more" card is a card that's only good when you're already ahead, but bad if you're behind.
If you're behind, Ugin is still good because he's a board wipe. If you're ahead he's good because he's a lightning bolt each turn which can take out creatures or whittle your opponent down.
From a business point of view, there's absolutely zero chance we see Zen fetches in Fate Reforged or Dragons of Tarkir.
Fetches sell a set/block on their own. There's no way the cycle will be milked under a year. Look at the painlands. They're slow releasing it with purpose.
Lastly, Ugin is a walker that is better cast on t8 (or later) rather than as early as possible.
Dragons of Tarkir is a spring set. A large set, but a spring set none the less. Spring set tend to sell far worse than fall sets, regardless of content. Fall sets practically sell themselves; they are drafted singularly for a larger period of time, tend to have the large impact on standard post rotation, and are coming off of the summer lull where people tend to avoid buying much Core Set product. If anything needs help selling, it isn't the fall set. It's by and large the spring sets. This will change in the future due to change in block structure, but as of current Dragons is going to need help to sell itself.
So your argument that it doesn't make financial sense is rather wrong; first sets in a block historically always do well on their own regardless of contents. It's the second, and more prominently third, sets that seriously need help.
funny how Karn totally owns Ugin though lol Still a really really awesome card, love it!
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I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
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People seems to ignore that there are a lot of mana boosters and controls in Standard. This guy could come as early as turn 4 or 5 if you have the proper ramp AND the proper control to keep that ramp going. I mean, you have from ramp auras for lands to lots of early instants to stop attacks. Uginwill see play in standard, I'm sure.
This is wrong. Manadork ramping into a board wrath is a combo that kills you, not the opponent. There's no way this can be played in a mana ramp deck in standard. You have to hit the land drops one by one.
T1- Elvish Mysthic
T2- another dork
T3- Nissa (or Nykthos and Arbor Colossus)
T4- Ugin - clean the field and you still have 2 win con in play
Clean threats when you are already big at t5 is great, he will be amazing in monogreen ramp
edit: this is a little christmas land, but put him T5 will be normal
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Nissa and arbor collossus are coloured permanents. So in this scenario you're paying 8 mana for a lighning strike and literally nothing else.
If you play it out as you say he also exiles the nissa or the arbor colossus.
People seems to ignore that there are a lot of mana boosters and controls in Standard. This guy could come as early as turn 4 or 5 if you have the proper ramp AND the proper control to keep that ramp going. I mean, you have from ramp auras for lands to lots of early instants to stop attacks. Uginwill see play in standard, I'm sure.
This is wrong. Manadork ramping into a board wrath is a combo that kills you, not the opponent. There's no way this can be played in a mana ramp deck in standard. You have to hit the land drops one by one.
T1- Elvish Mysthic
T2- another dork
T3- Nissa (or Nykthos and Arbor Colossus)
T4- Ugin - clean the field and you still have 2 win con in play
Clean threats when you are already big at t5 is great, he will be amazing in monogreen ramp
edit: this is a little christmas land, but put him T5 will be normal
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Nissa and arbor collossus are coloured permanents. So in this scenario you're paying 8 mana for a lighning strike and literally nothing else.
If you play it out as you say he also exiles the nissa or the arbor colossus.
At T4 (or more likely T5) you probably will use X=4. Also, he dont exile Nissa manlands, so they are good toghether. After that, you will already have a good board control and can use Chord of Calling to take something that you need if they try something or to get more value.
I somehow find it tragic when an attacking Traveling Philosopher gets blocked by another Traveling Philosopher, which normally results in two dead philosophers. Shouldn't they just sit aside and start discussing?
"This is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I'm quite dizzy with anticipation . . . Or is it the wind? There really is a lot of that now, isn't there? And wow! Hey! What's this thing suddenly coming toward me very fast? Very, very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide-sounding name like . . . ow . . . ound . . . round . . . ground! That's it! That's a good name- ground! I wonder if it will be friends with me? Hello Ground!"
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the Sprouting Phytohydra as it fell was Oh no, not again.
I think you should go back and read the card. It does not do what you think it does. Chord of calling? Ugin EXILES PERMANENTS. Chord of calling is a convoke spell. Convoke requires PERMANENTS.
You literally just need to read the card man. All of the text.
While it's true that convoke requires creatures, Chord of Calling does not require convoke to be cast. I believe MARPJ was inferring that you'd use all the lands ramped by Nissa to cast Chord. And MARPJ is also correct that Ugin's exile effect uses an X cost to define the range of permanents that can be exiled, which can very well be 4 or less to spare Nissa, Worldwaker and Arbor Colossus.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It seems to me that "Manifest" basically confirms that the original Ugin spoiler was in fact true. Why Wizards changed his ability from something directly associated with him and was unique to yet another board wipe ability is annoying. I'd have much rather seen Ugin turning enemy planeswalkers face down or turning your own lands into 2/2 creatures. His original spoiled card has the Manifest mechanic right there. This would answer the question of "can you unmorph a card morphed with [spoiled] Ugin?" and it would seem 'yes' if his second original ability was 'Manifest'.
Manifest confirms nothing. The "original" card was a hoax. If any changes had been made to Ugin's card during design or development they would have been made years before now, before the art was revealed, before anyone could have gotten a copy and scanned it. This is just like what happened with Varolz.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I build a deck that curves out at 6. It wins when I cast the 6 drop. I add an 8 drop. It still wins, but also wins if I cast the 6 drop into the 8 drop. Why did I add the 8 drop. Win more.
Is someone seriously trying to suggest that a 8cc card, with almost no ways to cheat it into play, will warp the meta so much that decks will be forced to play it or specifically design their decks to counter that specific card? That is the criteria for bannings.
For 8 mana it should do something worthwhile but lets not be hyperbolic here.
This is a win-more card.
it may not see play because of the mana cost, but surely it's not nowhere near win more.
If it doesn't see play because of it's cost because there are cheaper cards that will do the job better...then that's win-more. You don't need the card to win, so it's win-more if you play it.
errrr what?
how's that win more?
so... anything you don't need to win in a given match is win more?
this is a weird definition.... By this definition, even Black Lotus would be "win more" oftentimes.
By your definition, Shock is "win more" because Lightning Bolt exists... you're not making much sense, really.
cards that are too expensive for their effects are inneficient cards, not "win more"
"win more" is stuff that shine when you're already winning but do nothing to help you recover from a bad situation, Ugin is clearly not that.
If adding a card to your deck made you win more often, why wouldn't you put it in?
Win-more cards would be something that between the lines says "If you are ahead when this card is played, become more ahead". Like
(39)R
Split Second
Play this card only if you have 40 or more combined power between your creatures. Exile all opponents' permanents. Discard all hands. Your creatures get trample.
Sure, that's a huge exaggeration but if you're in such a situation, you likely were going to win without it.
I don't think Ugin is a win more card at all. I believe he is a change the tide of the game card just like most of the planeswalkers that are out there now. If you are getting steam rolled and you happen to be able to get out Ugin, he will change the flow of the game most likely. If you are winning and you get him out, it's going to make it harder for your opponent to come back.
It seems to me that "Manifest" basically confirms that the original Ugin spoiler was in fact true. Why Wizards changed his ability from something directly associated with him and was unique to yet another board wipe ability is annoying. I'd have much rather seen Ugin turning enemy planeswalkers face down or turning your own lands into 2/2 creatures. His original spoiled card has the Manifest mechanic right there. This would answer the question of "can you unmorph a card morphed with [spoiled] Ugin?" and it would seem 'yes' if his second original ability was 'Manifest'.
Sorry, but that's false: Manifest only puts the creature face down, doesn't help it get face up if it doesn't have Morph in it, which has the conditions to turn it face up.
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It seems to me that "Manifest" basically confirms that the original Ugin spoiler was in fact true. Why Wizards changed his ability from something directly associated with him and was unique to yet another board wipe ability is annoying. I'd have much rather seen Ugin turning enemy planeswalkers face down or turning your own lands into 2/2 creatures. His original spoiled card has the Manifest mechanic right there. This would answer the question of "can you unmorph a card morphed with [spoiled] Ugin?" and it would seem 'yes' if his second original ability was 'Manifest'.
Sorry, but that's false: Manifest only puts the creature face down, doesn't help it get face up if it doesn't have Morph in it, which has the conditions to turn it face up.
Um, no, read the reminder text (or the Mechanics article on the Mothership) again. You can turn a manifested creature (but not a non-creature) face up by paying its mana cost just as you would a Morph cost.
The real reason ManaRamp is wrong (apart from the annoyingly persistent misconception that WotC has the ability and desire to change cards mere days before official previews, and an apparently unclear understanding of what the word "confirms" means, ok, he's wrong for a lot of reasons) is that the fake Ugin doesn't have the Manifest mechanic because it doesn't say "Manifest". So fake Ugin's -2 would not allow a creature to be turned face up for its mana cost. I would not be surprised to see "Manifest target non-token creature" in this set but "turn target creature face down" is not the same thing and it's difficult to figure out what precise mistake would lead one to the conclusion that it is.
It seems to me that "Manifest" basically confirms that the original Ugin spoiler was in fact true. Why Wizards changed his ability from something directly associated with him and was unique to yet another board wipe ability is annoying. I'd have much rather seen Ugin turning enemy planeswalkers face down or turning your own lands into 2/2 creatures. His original spoiled card has the Manifest mechanic right there. This would answer the question of "can you unmorph a card morphed with [spoiled] Ugin?" and it would seem 'yes' if his second original ability was 'Manifest'.
Manifest confirms nothing. The "original" card was a hoax. If any changes had been made to Ugin's card during design or development they would have been made years before now, before the art was revealed, before anyone could have gotten a copy and scanned it. This is just like what happened with Varolz.
Product, of any king, doesn't just blink into existence the moment before its up for sale. It has to be produced before hand.
The fact that they work two years in advance means everything for this set was already finalized mid 2013 at the latest so they could have this ready for the printers by May 2014. Wizards doesn't have the power, monetarily or physically, to change anything in a set 4 week before its release. And FRF product has already been sitting in distributors waiting areas since the end of November.
@ Bogardan Mage- I think its covered by the Refuge in Audacity trope right?
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The other thing is that Manifest only seems to work on cards that are not on play.
It's not clear to me if this is necessarily true (meaning that the rules could not possibly work with a card that manifested permanents on the battlefield) but assuming that it is, all that would be needed would be to utilise the technology on Jeskai Infiltrator and exile the permanent to be manifested first. In any case, it is the keyword action "manifest" that gives the ability to turn the cards face up again, not some kind of functional change to how face down cards work.
I just realized! Ugin's minus ability actually makes a lot more of sense if we consider the block's focus on Morph and Manifest: Ugin has one card with his name before Nexus, which was his Eye. His eye makes easier to cast colorless creatures, specially colorless Eldrazi creatures. All cards with Changeling are Eldrazi. So, a colorless creature that can be anything, compared with two abilities that make creatures colorless nothings... yeah, I can see why the whole Color Hatred. I realized after noticing the block's main theme is not Wedges but change, which is why Morph came back, with overlay and all, and why we now have Manifest to add to it.
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Agreed. Control decks in particular can make good use of expensive finishers if they stall the game out long enough. Without colorless ramp or at the least good topdeck manipulation to ensure you consistently hit land drops Ugin certainly becomes more difficult to cast outside of green. Still, we have seen UB control and to a lesser extent UW control have the ability to stabilize consistently to where they have 8 lands. They can make games go long.
What these decks are missing is a good way to finish the game once they do. And Ugin provides just that. It all depends on what else is printed in the set, but if the format remains as slow and mid-range as it is now I wouldn't be surprised he is a 1-2 of in every control deck.
Fetches sell a set/block on their own. There's no way the cycle will be milked under a year. Look at the painlands. They're slow releasing it with purpose.
Lastly, Ugin is a walker that is better cast on t8 (or later) rather than as early as possible.
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If you're behind, Ugin is still good because he's a board wipe. If you're ahead he's good because he's a lightning bolt each turn which can take out creatures or whittle your opponent down.
Dragons of Tarkir is a spring set. A large set, but a spring set none the less. Spring set tend to sell far worse than fall sets, regardless of content. Fall sets practically sell themselves; they are drafted singularly for a larger period of time, tend to have the large impact on standard post rotation, and are coming off of the summer lull where people tend to avoid buying much Core Set product. If anything needs help selling, it isn't the fall set. It's by and large the spring sets. This will change in the future due to change in block structure, but as of current Dragons is going to need help to sell itself.
So your argument that it doesn't make financial sense is rather wrong; first sets in a block historically always do well on their own regardless of contents. It's the second, and more prominently third, sets that seriously need help.
funny how Karn totally owns Ugin though lol Still a really really awesome card, love it!
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Nissa and arbor collossus are coloured permanents. So in this scenario you're paying 8 mana for a lighning strike and literally nothing else.
If you play it out as you say he also exiles the nissa or the arbor colossus.
At T4 (or more likely T5) you probably will use X=4. Also, he dont exile Nissa manlands, so they are good toghether. After that, you will already have a good board control and can use Chord of Calling to take something that you need if they try something or to get more value.
You literally just need to read the card man. All of the text.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
If adding a card to your deck made you win more often, why wouldn't you put it in?
Win-more cards would be something that between the lines says "If you are ahead when this card is played, become more ahead". Like
(39)R
Split Second
Play this card only if you have 40 or more combined power between your creatures. Exile all opponents' permanents. Discard all hands. Your creatures get trample.
Sure, that's a huge exaggeration but if you're in such a situation, you likely were going to win without it.
Sorry, but that's false: Manifest only puts the creature face down, doesn't help it get face up if it doesn't have Morph in it, which has the conditions to turn it face up.
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Um, no, read the reminder text (or the Mechanics article on the Mothership) again. You can turn a manifested creature (but not a non-creature) face up by paying its mana cost just as you would a Morph cost.
The real reason ManaRamp is wrong (apart from the annoyingly persistent misconception that WotC has the ability and desire to change cards mere days before official previews, and an apparently unclear understanding of what the word "confirms" means, ok, he's wrong for a lot of reasons) is that the fake Ugin doesn't have the Manifest mechanic because it doesn't say "Manifest". So fake Ugin's -2 would not allow a creature to be turned face up for its mana cost. I would not be surprised to see "Manifest target non-token creature" in this set but "turn target creature face down" is not the same thing and it's difficult to figure out what precise mistake would lead one to the conclusion that it is.
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This confirms time travel.
The fact that they work two years in advance means everything for this set was already finalized mid 2013 at the latest so they could have this ready for the printers by May 2014. Wizards doesn't have the power, monetarily or physically, to change anything in a set 4 week before its release. And FRF product has already been sitting in distributors waiting areas since the end of November.
@ Bogardan Mage- I think its covered by the Refuge in Audacity trope right?
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I think you'd have to invoke Poe's Law for that to make sense.
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It's not clear to me if this is necessarily true (meaning that the rules could not possibly work with a card that manifested permanents on the battlefield) but assuming that it is, all that would be needed would be to utilise the technology on Jeskai Infiltrator and exile the permanent to be manifested first. In any case, it is the keyword action "manifest" that gives the ability to turn the cards face up again, not some kind of functional change to how face down cards work.
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