No, you're not the only one to dislike the new Etched Champion. I dislike most of these computer generated arts, especially 3D ones. I absolutely loathe this 3D route Wizards seems to be taking, however things have improved with Tarkir. They had reached an all time level of bad with stuff like hundred-handed one, or Polis Crusher. Ugh, hundred handed one was so hideous I actually had to go against my mind to play him in limited.
I, too hate artwork that looks like a computer game. I hope they're not going to reprint Damnation and put some hideous new art on it.
First with regard to value, I would say monetary value influences intrinsic value and intrinsic value influences monetary value. Once you are with in a system (format) the various values of cards influence each other. And your right, scarcity doesn't create value in a deck, but it doesn't have to, unless your talking about limited...
It does if intrinsic value is value in a deck and your claim that scarcity creates intrinsic value is true. So therefore that's not what intrinsic value is or your claim is false. This is a pretty good example of why "intrinsic" is a bad word to use here, because there is clearly not agreement even in your own arguments of what precisely it means.
As to the specific series of definitions, I'm trying to create a linear, understandable interpretation of how the system evolved. The thing is it isn't linear and the number of moving parts to it is almost impossible to nail down.
Which makes it even more imperative that you avoid ambiguity, because if you talk about necessary simplifications as though they were set in stone truths at the very least you're going to be misunderstood.
I think one of the most frustrating things about this is that there is so much ambiguity in the system. I mean there are no "truths" that cannot change in a day. All you can kinda watch are the trends.
Here let me try something with my original post to see if it helps to clear things up. I'm going to add a couple things that I initially should have added but didn't out of haste or just plain missing them:
"WotC and Hasbro want to create something that holds people's interest. The easiest way to do that is to make them invest, and by invest I mean monetarily, temporally and emotionally, in it. And the way to get people to invest in something is to show, by show I mean to present or advertise it as such that it in fact has intrinsic value. The easiest most efficient way, read cost effective way, to create intrinsic value is to generate the illusion of scarcity. Now, since they have done that, why would they undo it?"
Ok give that a look. Everything I italicized is new.
That doesn't really address any of the objections I have with it. The most ambiguous term you keep using is "intrinsic", you come close to resolving that by suggesting that what WotC is really trying to do is present there as being intrinsic value but you undo that in the next sentence by claiming that the illusion is of scarcity and that the intrinsic value is genuinely created. I'm actually wondering if this is a typographical error since it doesn't make much sense to me. A) Did you mean "...to create the illusion of intrinsic value is to generate scarcity"?
B) My other objection is that you're apparently ignoring WotC's actual strategy for holding people's interest which is, as I discussed in one of my earlier posts, creating and maintaining a healthy and enjoyable game. In many situations this is mutually exclusive with the strategy you propose and since there is evidence that they actually try to implement this one and none that they try to implement yours, it seems clear to me how those scenarios at least resolve themselves.
A) Ok. First thing is, beyond everything else, Magic has become games with in a game. Its a perfect microcosm of the world we live in. I don't think the intrinsic value of cards is an illusion though. The scarcity likely is but the essential value of certain cards for certain decks in certain formats is very very real. There is no replacement for LotV or Tarmogoyf in GB Rock decks. Just like Delver requires Delver of Secrets or burn needs lightning bolt. Now, is it any coincidence that cards like tarmogoyf and LotV are more expensive cards but have an intrinsic value equal to dollar cards like Delver and bolt? Which leads me to B).When WotC prints a set they are paying little to no attention on extended formats. Period. When they print a new set, their focus is that set. They want that set to be fun and enjoyable. To make that possible they use scarcity by way of card rarity. Thats why we saw tarmogoyf among others moved from rare to mythic. Then later if the new card is too powerful they ban it. They don't try to implement my system. In fact it isn't my system I'm talking about. I'm talking about their system. And in their system one of the indicators of a healthy, enjoyable game is expensive cards.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I find it amusing how ppl stills try to treat magic cards like they were stocks.
Well, there's several reasons for that. One is simply that it's easier for a lot of people to justify spending tons of money on cards if they feel like they can get that money back later once they decide that it isn't for them anymore. Most of these people understand that it's not a sure thing, but a few feel entitled to getting that money back. They feel that they entered some sort of covenant with WotC when buying the singles, where WotC will protect their "investment" and in return, they will spend large amounts of money on singles. This is especially prevalent if you are talking about the Reserved List, but that's a whole other can of worms. Basically, the issue is that a few players feel like they are only lending money to WotC (Who don't see any profits from purchases of singles that aren't in print) when buying cards, and they feel "cheated" when their investment turns out to actually be a purchase much like a new computer or car. These people are also, ironically, the ones who will yell the loudest about "entitlement" and how no one is "entitled" to play Magic. Which is entirely correct, entirely beside the point and entirely hypocritical.
There's also the speculators. People who buy up tons of a card - like Bloodbraid Elf right now since it's possible that it might get unbanned tomorrow - and then sell it back onto the market, often for ridiculously low profit margins. Again, most are completely okay with and realise that they risk losing money on such a venture, but some will throw a tantrum if a card they thought was safe from reprints goes and gets reprinted.
While I don't disagree with anything you've said here, you must take into account the phenomena of hobbies lasting longer and becoming more sustainable lines up directly with their fiscal security. The more secure the money that you put into a hobby is, the more money your willing to invest in said hobby. People joke about those who invest in Magic while they sit in do exactly that. They may lie to themselves and say "well I'm only spending a little bit of money and a little bit of time and sure I get a little emotionally invested in games" etc. But over time, that little bit here and little bit there becomes a lot. Simple example: say you spend $100 a year on magic and have been playing since the beginning. That's a pretty low number and pretty easy to put that into magic. Well you would now have over $2000 invested in the game and likely thousands upon thousands of hours. Now there is no way to recoup that money entirely and those hours are gone forever. But WotC can mitigate the monetary investment by using a careful reprint strategy. As they should. No the ones that are fantasizing are the ones saying they aren't invest in the game. You are, you just don't know it yet.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
While I don't disagree with anything you've said here, you must take into account the phenomena of hobbies lasting longer and becoming more sustainable lines up directly with their fiscal security. The more secure the money that you put into a hobby is, the more money your willing to invest in said hobby. People joke about those who invest in Magic while they sit in do exactly that. They may lie to themselves and say "well I'm only spending a little bit of money and a little bit of time and sure I get a little emotionally invested in games" etc. But over time, that little bit here and little bit there becomes a lot. Simple example: say you spend $100 a year on magic and have been playing since the beginning. That's a pretty low number and pretty easy to put that into magic. Well you would now have over $2000 invested in the game and likely thousands upon thousands of hours. Now there is no way to recoup that money entirely and those hours are gone forever. But WotC can mitigate the monetary investment by using a careful reprint strategy. As they should. No the ones that are fantasizing are the ones saying they aren't invest in the game. You are, you just don't know it yet.
Well, yes. The big difference is that I'm not expecting to get it back. I mean, I spent a ton of money on computers to play video games on over the years. All those thousands of dollars are gone. I'm not getting them back. I'm fine with that. In fact, my current PC needs to be replaced soon, and I expect to spend yet more money to do so. That's the thing. I have invested tons of time and resources into Magic, my PC and other things. But to me, that money is gone. I've sold some of my cards once when I needed some cash. It's definitely nice that I was able to do so, but it's not something I really expect. It's just a nice bonus. If I was suddenly unable to sell my cards when I want to, I'd be annoyed, but I wouldn't stop playing. I mean, look at Hearthstone. It doesn't have a secondary market, nor does it even allow for trading. Yet people still spend lots of money on that game. So clearly it's not as integral to the game's success as, say, supporters of the Reserved List would have you believe.
Now, do you believe hearthstone will be around in 20 years? Hell, I'm fairly certain Richard Garfield wasn't expecting MTG to be around in 20 years, well, who knows, maybe he did... The secondary market in MTG has become just another aspect of the game as a whole. And it is nice to have cards retain their value, at least in degrees.
I would pose this question though to all those who want reprintings of the big money cards: Why? And before you say WotC would make money from the venture, remember, they are already making a ton of money not printing those cards. Why would they risk angering a portion of their oldest, most stable constituency to appease a younger more volatile one? To me, all they are doing is mitigating their risks.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
While I don't disagree with anything you've said here, you must take into account the phenomena of hobbies lasting longer and becoming more sustainable lines up directly with their fiscal security. The more secure the money that you put into a hobby is, the more money your willing to invest in said hobby. People joke about those who invest in Magic while they sit in do exactly that. They may lie to themselves and say "well I'm only spending a little bit of money and a little bit of time and sure I get a little emotionally invested in games" etc. But over time, that little bit here and little bit there becomes a lot. Simple example: say you spend $100 a year on magic and have been playing since the beginning. That's a pretty low number and pretty easy to put that into magic. Well you would now have over $2000 invested in the game and likely thousands upon thousands of hours. Now there is no way to recoup that money entirely and those hours are gone forever. But WotC can mitigate the monetary investment by using a careful reprint strategy. As they should. No the ones that are fantasizing are the ones saying they aren't invest in the game. You are, you just don't know it yet.
Well, yes. The big difference is that I'm not expecting to get it back. I mean, I spent a ton of money on computers to play video games on over the years. All those thousands of dollars are gone. I'm not getting them back. I'm fine with that. In fact, my current PC needs to be replaced soon, and I expect to spend yet more money to do so. That's the thing. I have invested tons of time and resources into Magic, my PC and other things. But to me, that money is gone. I've sold some of my cards once when I needed some cash. It's definitely nice that I was able to do so, but it's not something I really expect. It's just a nice bonus. If I was suddenly unable to sell my cards when I want to, I'd be annoyed, but I wouldn't stop playing. I mean, look at Hearthstone. It doesn't have a secondary market, nor does it even allow for trading. Yet people still spend lots of money on that game. So clearly it's not as integral to the game's success as, say, supporters of the Reserved List would have you believe.
Now, do you believe hearthstone will be around in 20 years? Hell, I'm fairly certain Richard Garfield wasn't expecting MTG to be around in 20 years, well, who knows, maybe he did... The secondary market in MTG has become just another aspect of the game as a whole. And it is nice to have cards retain their value, at least in degrees.
I would pose this question though to all those who want reprintings of the big money cards: Why? And before you say WotC would make money from the venture, remember, they are already making a ton of money not printing those cards. Why would they risk angering a portion of their oldest, most stable constituency to appease a younger more volatile one? To me, all they are doing is mitigating their risks.
Because the reserve list puts every "collector" on notice. Your cards that are not on this list are fair game to be reprinted, and they have no problem mass printing them and cutting their value 50+%. Meaning anyone who gets mad about it is has no leg to stand on aside from personal greed.
They aren't going to reprint cards for no reason, but they'll absolutely reprint them to drive sales on a set.
Well that's obvious isn't it? What's ambiguous is why haven't they done it more? Maybe its flavor related. Maybe its to print those cards in a limited capacity like MM whereas its perceived they are reprinting cards(and by that giving into a certain demographic) but all they are actually doing is printing just enough to wet the taste of players on the fence of joining an extended format and by doing so are creating a wider base which necessarily creates greater demand.(Remember the price of tarmogoyf, clique and bob among others all substantially increased in the long term with the MM printing) One of the unstated rules of marketing is never give your customer exactly what they want because then they will move on to something else. You give them just enough to satisfy them for a period of time but not enough that they won't come crawling back for more.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Now, do you believe hearthstone will be around in 20 years? Hell, I'm fairly certain Richard Garfield wasn't expecting MTG to be around in 20 years, well, who knows, maybe he did... The secondary market in MTG has become just another aspect of the game as a whole. And it is nice to have cards retain their value, at least in degrees.
I would pose this question though to all those who want reprintings of the big money cards: Why? And before you say WotC would make money from the venture, remember, they are already making a ton of money not printing those cards. Why would they risk angering a portion of their oldest, most stable constituency to appease a younger more volatile one? To me, all they are doing is mitigating their risks.
So you're basically making the claim that the secondary market is what has kept Magic around for this long?
Interesting claim. Care to back that up with some sources, or..?
I wish I had some concrete sources that could not also be described as purely circumstantial. I mean MTG is a unique game and a unique entity beyond the game aspect. Two very different things converge in it, namely a component based tabletop game and a long standing collectible entity i.e. trading cards. One thing is certain, MTG survived and blossomed in a time when trading cards of other sorts were nearly printed into oblivion. And from there it has only grown. Now what do we know about the secondary market? What does it do for the game? Well primarily it creates its own reason for stores to carry the product, independent of anything else. I suppose its sort of a branding thing. I mean what would a professional athletic team be, without the league its in supporting it? MTG is kind of self sustaining and the presence and very existence of the secondary market is a bi-product of that. And it, in turn supports the existence of extend formats. At least that's how I see it.
I wish I had some real hard stats on this but I'm not sure any exist. I mean I think it would be interesting to plot the growth of the secondary market venders in comparison to the overall growth of the game but alas I don't know of any place those numbers could be found.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I wish I had some concrete sources that could not also be described as purely circumstantial. I mean MTG is a unique game and a unique entity beyond the game aspect. Two very different things converge in it, namely a component based tabletop game and a long standing collectible entity i.e. trading cards. One thing is certain, MTG survived and blossomed in a time when trading cards of other sorts were nearly printed into oblivion. And from there it has only grown. Now what do we know about the secondary market? What does it do for the game? Well primarily it creates its own reason for stores to carry the product, independent of anything else. I suppose its sort of a branding thing. I mean what would a professional athletic team be, without the league its in supporting it? MTG is kind of self sustaining and the presence and very existence of the secondary market is a bi-product of that. And it, in turn supports the existence of extend formats. At least that's how I see it.
I wish I had some real hard stats on this but I'm not sure any exist. I mean I think it would be interesting to plot the growth of the secondary market venders in comparison to the overall growth of the game but alas I don't know of any place those numbers could be found.
Okay, well, here's what I think caused the game to far outlive expectations. Expansions. Namely, that new sets are simply expansions to the game as a whole, rather than being games onto themselves. In terms of card games, this was a fairly novel idea at the time, borrowed from games like D&D which Magic was at least somewhat inspired by. It wasn't even the original intention. We've all heard of the purple card backs that Arabian Nights almost got. But the fact that they decided to pull that idea and instead turn Magic into an ever-expanding game is what kept people collecting. The fact that you didn't have to make a new collection every time a new set came out meant that people fell into the sunk cost fallacy.
This is also a lot of what drives the investment mentality in the secondary market. People have already invested hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars into the game, they might as well keep going. For some, this is a source of regret, in a way. We're all brought up to think of frivolous spending as a bad thing. "Just think, you could've bought a car with that money!" Some people can reconcile this with their feelings and realise that the money is gone and it was spent on something they like, so who cares? But a minority cannot stop feeling guilty about it unless they have that comforting thought of "Well, I can always sell them later and get my investment back with interest". A few people do this, but the number of people who actually cash out vs. the number of people who merely want to have the option but never actually do so seems quite disproportionate. Unless they're actually looking to buy in and cash out, it seems like a silly thing to get upset over this opportunity being removed. It's a sense of entitlement.
That being said, the expansion idea, while being good and keeping the game running for longer than it would have initially, comes at a price. That price being that people who missed the expansions of the past end up not only feeling left out, but also having a much higher bar of entry to playing with those expansions since prices go up over time. To that end, Standard, as much as I personally loathe it for many reasons, is an excellent tool for getting your foot in the door at your local competitive scene. Compared to Modern or Legacy, it's cheap and the cards are easily accessible. It's easy to find a Xenagos, God of Revels in someone's binder locally. It's much harder to find an Ensnaring Bridge. If you wanna get into Modern, the only real option is to fork over the cash. And it's expensive. Very expensive. I was in luck when I started playing Modern, I already had a decently-sized Legacy collection, of which I could turn the cards that weren't legal into Modern cards that I was missing.
But for a new player who's tired of Standard and wants to play Modern? It's hard. It's really hard. Sure, it's a luxury product. No one has to play Modern. But I like to think that if the format was more accessible in terms of price, we would see a larger influx of new players and a higher interest in the format. People cash out of Vintage, legacy and Modern every year. It's not many people that do it, but it's enough that the formats will stagnate in the short run and die in the long one. Vintage and Legacy have to deal with the Reserved List for this - they have very little chance of ever recovering. But in Modern, there's nothing keeping reprints of expensive cards out of the question. In Modern, if a card's availability ever becomes an issue, there is a solution besides just throwing up our arms and saying "Oh well". If they could reduce the prices of Modern cards in general by, say, 30 % (More on some expensive staples like the infamous Goyf), I think we'd see a lot more new players and a much more vibrant and active format. There is a problem here - it's one that's easy to solve. People just need to be less scared about the thought of their spent money not being recoverable.
Is it not also a sense of entitlement that cards others have spent money on, a lot of money on, should be reduced purely to allow an easier entry for folks that missed the boat? I mean it kinda is, though I too feel for younger players trying to get in. But through that struggle, through that cost, don't you also think one gains some appreciation for the game. Doesn't the face value of the game itself increase with the amount of difficulty it is to attain that level of competitiveness? Here's a bit different metaphor: Who values a fit body more, the one naturally gifted with it or the one who has to strive to attain it? Or another one: its not the treasure but the quest were in true value is to be found.
And you say there is nothing stopping reprints, but there clearly is since we don't have them. They might not seem like great reasons to use but surely they must be there. I mean if all that was at stake was money to be made, any business would grab at the opportunity. However there must be something else there that the casual onlooker misses.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Now, do you believe hearthstone will be around in 20 years? Hell, I'm fairly certain Richard Garfield wasn't expecting MTG to be around in 20 years, well, who knows, maybe he did... The secondary market in MTG has become just another aspect of the game as a whole. And it is nice to have cards retain their value, at least in degrees.
I would pose this question though to all those who want reprintings of the big money cards: Why? And before you say WotC would make money from the venture, remember, they are already making a ton of money not printing those cards. Why would they risk angering a portion of their oldest, most stable constituency to appease a younger more volatile one? To me, all they are doing is mitigating their risks.
So you're basically making the claim that the secondary market is what has kept Magic around for this long?
Interesting claim. Care to back that up with some sources, or..?
I know dozens of people that have walked away from Hearthstone because of how hard it is to get certain 'extra' cards (no secondary market), there is no tournament play, its a game of fun and nothing else. They would rather play Magic then Hearthstone. I am sure Hearthstone appeals to a certain demographic but it is not getting all it can because of how its run.
The only thing I would add is you actually kind of hi-lite one of the exact reasons to keep prices high in your response. Extended formats cannot ever surpass standard, ever. Truly it is a delicate balance and your right, there are certain people who simply won't make the leap. But to those who truly want to play at the higher levels, they will make the investment.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think Wotc generally does care somewhat about Modern, after all demand for new modern staples (fetches and others) in Khans probably pushed sales much higher than they otherwise would have made than if Khans were like Theros in terms of power level. However, it's quite understandable that they don't want it to overshadow Standard. I got back into the game during the Innistrad-Ravnica Standard season and absolutely had a blast during that time, but once rotation happened and Theros came in, I wasn't impressed and switched to Modern. Now that I'm so heavily invested inModern, I won't go back to Standard no matter how good the new sets are, and Khans definitely is a good one. I think this is what Wotc is afraid of.
No, you're not the only one to dislike the new Etched Champion. I dislike most of these computer generated arts, especially 3D ones. I absolutely loathe this 3D route Wizards seems to be taking, however things have improved with Tarkir. They had reached an all time level of bad with stuff like hundred-handed one, or Polis Crusher. Ugh, hundred handed one was so hideous I actually had to go against my mind to play him in limited.
Biggest deal with the 3D graphic is that the card image is simply too small to show details, so the image looks unnatural.
But in the end i can stand your examples of hundred-handed one, or Polis Crusher ; they are "ok" at least.
The Etched Champion Art however is even worse, it just looks bad, like a Prototype computer game ; really crap.
I feel you all. I'm disappointed as well with newer cards being CG. The biggest offender of this to me is Unflinching Courage .
... and was a worse version of Armadillo Cloak (which was a common not an uncommon).
To be fair, lifelink gains you the life at the same time damage resolves, so you can use it on a blocker to survive an attack. Armadillo Cloak (and other old "spirit link" cards) have a triggered ability that won't resolve until after you've been damaged. Sometimes Unflinching Courage is better than Armadillo Cloak, even if its effect doesn't stack. Also, Armadillo Cloak was a pretty ridiculous common.
They could reprint it at uncommon and the price would surely go down to the 10-20 level were a stupid vanilla creature that happens to be the best beatdown option, is supposed to be. Goyf was splashed into Twin and into affinity, with huge success. That card is as busted as lightning bolt and should be available as a lightning bolt.
Amulet of Vigor is 3$. What are you talking about??!?
Well, I don't believe you. You are only afraid of your precious Tarmo losing value. That's why you suggest reprinting cards nobody really needs, so new players always have to go for stupid gimmick decks like boogles, while playing the real game is without their grasp.
Reprint Tarmogoyf at uncommon, and the format is open for everybody.
If Goyf was splashed into Affinity and was so successful, then when is there zero decks playing it? It doesn't work in the deck. Why would the best beater in the format ever be an uncommon? The card is way too good for Uncommon and probably too good for Rare.
Amulet of Vigor the deck not the card. Azusa is $25 right now.
The people that cannot afford goyf are not the ones that put Boggles where it is. The pros got boggles, scapeshift, etc to work. They aren't gimmick decks. Some decks like Boggles and Infect just don't have enough support cards to be Tier 1.
The "real game" isn't even using goyf right now which is why he is dropping in price.
I'm hoping that there are less bad rares this time around. Reprint the following
Now, if I want to build an affinity deck? Nope. Mox Opal is certainly a Mox.
What if I what to build a boggles deck? That might be cheap huh? NOPE. 4x Daybreak Coronet says hi.
Elfball? Regal Force.
Amulet of Vigor? Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Primeval Titan? are u nuts?
Reanimator? With Iona, Elesh-Norn, Griseldad and friends? hahaha
The Mox needs reprint, but why not reprint him along with Goyf?
Boggles only has Daybreak, that's it. A Playset of those is about 1 (!!) Goyf (actually less). And this card is just played in one cheesy deck, so demand is lower.
Elfball? Regal Force costs 15 bucks on CHF. One booster of MM2015 has a mrsp of 10$. There is actually next to no reason to reprint a card that's worth less before reprint than the boosters of MM2015 will actually be sold at.
Amulet of Vigor is 3$. What are you talking about??!?
Amulet of Vigor DECK runs 4 Azusa and 4 Primeval Titans I guess you need new glasses
And just for you to know, of those cards. I own only a single Tarmo-chan. And I don't even play her in Modern.
I'm not here just *****ing like if I want my collection to be high value and don't give a ***** about other players. Exactly the opposite, I want cards from the use-to-be low-budget decks to become once more low-budget, and help people to get into modern.
Well, I don't believe you. You are only afraid of your precious Tarmo losing value. That's why you suggest reprinting cards nobody really needs, so new players always have to go for stupid gimmick decks like boogles, while playing the real game is without their grasp.
Reprint Tarmogoyf at uncommon, and the format is open for everybody.
Well, I don't think anyone here even cares about what you believe.
You are being irrational, not everybody in the world wants to play with tarmogoyf in decks that lately don't win anything. But if a person with a light budget wants to play modern, the use-to-be cheap and good decks are now "slightly" expensive. (*excluding Delver decks which are cheap and win a lot)
Now, If I really had lots of Tarmogoyfs and friends I wouldn't be losing my time discussing with irrational people like yourself in this forum.
You really think wizards will reprint Tarmogoyf at uncommon? (Specially after reprinting it as a mythic) lol
[sarcasm] Do you want black lotuses at uncommon too? Or maybe you want wizards to deliver every mtg player the complete collection of magic cards? Viva la MTG revolución! Socialism in Magic now![/sarcasm]
WAKE UP! Wizards only cares about profit, they would *never print tarmogoyfs at uncommon (*well maybe in a world were tamogoyf is banned from every format and nobody cares about her anymore).
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Meowth~
I secretly ship Ral x Jace... and Nissa x Chandra... :">
A) Ok. First thing is, beyond everything else, Magic has become games with in a game. Its a perfect microcosm of the world we live in. I don't think the intrinsic value of cards is an illusion though. The scarcity likely is but the essential value of certain cards for certain decks in certain formats is very very real. There is no replacement for LotV or Tarmogoyf in GB Rock decks. Just like Delver requires Delver of Secrets or burn needs lightning bolt. Now, is it any coincidence that cards like tarmogoyf and LotV are more expensive cards but have an intrinsic value equal to dollar cards like Delver and bolt?
Ok, so it wasn't a typo. That just means it doesn't address the objection. You're using "intrinsic" in an ambiguous and, I think, internally inconsistent manner. Your alterations to your original post do not resolve this in the slightest. If anything, they amplify it. "Intrinsic value is created by illusory scarcity" is a nonsensical statement and you've not explained what you mean by it.
Which leads me to B).When WotC prints a set they are paying little to no attention on extended formats. Period. When they print a new set, their focus is that set. They want that set to be fun and enjoyable. To make that possible they use scarcity by way of card rarity. Thats why we saw tarmogoyf among others moved from rare to mythic. Then later if the new card is too powerful they ban it. They don't try to implement my system. In fact it isn't my system I'm talking about. I'm talking about their system. And in their system one of the indicators of a healthy, enjoyable game is expensive cards.
This is just a mess of confusions. They didn't "move" Tarmogoyf to mythic in any sense that would work in the context you're using; Future Sight Tarmogoyfs didn't become any rarer by it being reprinted at a higher rarity. It is true that for Standard-legal sets they focus on Standard, but they release other products with an eye to supporting non-rotating formats like, oh, Modern Masters, the very topic of this thread. If "expensive cards" was a goal unto itself then they'd just never reprint anything. They may as well keep adding stuff to the Reserved List, in fact. Having staples cost four figures is healthy, apparently, and therefore desirable in its own right. This is a confusion of demand- and supply-side pressures. When a card is so good that it's played in multiples in a large number of decks, that puts demand-side pressure on the price. This is a mark of a healthy game. When a card is limited because it was only sold in a very short print run to the Asia Pacific region in 1998, that's supply-side pressure and it's not healthy. You can't just decree high prices to be good for the game without examining the factors that go into them, and there is zero evidence that WotC takes this view.
Oh, it's not as complicated as one would think, really. The reprints that the format needs/needed in order to function were shocks and fetches. Lands. As long as you have the manabases covered, there's always gonna be cheaper options for decks. Not every deck needs a Goyf, and the price of decks like Burn and Delver probably contributed a lot to their popularity over the last long while
the thing is: play rogue decks if you don't want to spend money on ur cards
i've made a $100 dollar deck that plays well versus the majority of the field, beats the crap out of $2000 bgs, and of course, has its weaknesses, but it plays like the tier decks of my state, i went in ptqs here and my results were among the highest of my friends and people in my city
the beauty of magic is that it has so many options that you can escape those cards with absurd prices by replacing or crating budget decks that work
ad nauseam is probably the strongest deck in this delver meta and is absurdely cheap compared to the tier decks.
the thing is: most people prefer to copy decks, if everybody wants to do so, then the same cards will have an absurd price, demand and offer is the law
now if you make an out of the box deck, you will pay cheaper, have the surprise effect AND you will have a lot of information of other people decks
make your own deck, it's hard, but fun and if you score well on a big tourney, you will be proud of your creativity and skill, just look at the death's shadow deck that showed out on top8, just look at the hive mind deck that turned into the bloom titan.
Well, scratch Birthing Pod off the list, it's been banned. Dredge's former and future heavyweight boxing champion is getting back in the league, and will probably tag-team with Tarmogoyf in more than a few green wrestling matches. GREEN BODY SLAM!
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
I don't think you could do goyf at uncommon because of the historical value it has, but rare would be really appropriate.
I own 5 and I want them to drop in price just so people shut up about it already. If you were able to actually cast goyfs, you would realize that youre playing with a conditional vanilla 2 drop that you have to set up in order for it not to die to bolt on turn 2, and gets completely wrecked by rest in peace .
Also, goyf with affinity was never actually a thing. It popped up on time, as a meta call, and surprised people. Japanese players do wonky stuff all the time. Please stop using that as an example.
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I, too hate artwork that looks like a computer game. I hope they're not going to reprint Damnation and put some hideous new art on it.
A) Ok. First thing is, beyond everything else, Magic has become games with in a game. Its a perfect microcosm of the world we live in. I don't think the intrinsic value of cards is an illusion though. The scarcity likely is but the essential value of certain cards for certain decks in certain formats is very very real. There is no replacement for LotV or Tarmogoyf in GB Rock decks. Just like Delver requires Delver of Secrets or burn needs lightning bolt. Now, is it any coincidence that cards like tarmogoyf and LotV are more expensive cards but have an intrinsic value equal to dollar cards like Delver and bolt? Which leads me to B).When WotC prints a set they are paying little to no attention on extended formats. Period. When they print a new set, their focus is that set. They want that set to be fun and enjoyable. To make that possible they use scarcity by way of card rarity. Thats why we saw tarmogoyf among others moved from rare to mythic. Then later if the new card is too powerful they ban it. They don't try to implement my system. In fact it isn't my system I'm talking about. I'm talking about their system. And in their system one of the indicators of a healthy, enjoyable game is expensive cards.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
While I don't disagree with anything you've said here, you must take into account the phenomena of hobbies lasting longer and becoming more sustainable lines up directly with their fiscal security. The more secure the money that you put into a hobby is, the more money your willing to invest in said hobby. People joke about those who invest in Magic while they sit in do exactly that. They may lie to themselves and say "well I'm only spending a little bit of money and a little bit of time and sure I get a little emotionally invested in games" etc. But over time, that little bit here and little bit there becomes a lot. Simple example: say you spend $100 a year on magic and have been playing since the beginning. That's a pretty low number and pretty easy to put that into magic. Well you would now have over $2000 invested in the game and likely thousands upon thousands of hours. Now there is no way to recoup that money entirely and those hours are gone forever. But WotC can mitigate the monetary investment by using a careful reprint strategy. As they should. No the ones that are fantasizing are the ones saying they aren't invest in the game. You are, you just don't know it yet.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Now, do you believe hearthstone will be around in 20 years? Hell, I'm fairly certain Richard Garfield wasn't expecting MTG to be around in 20 years, well, who knows, maybe he did... The secondary market in MTG has become just another aspect of the game as a whole. And it is nice to have cards retain their value, at least in degrees.
I would pose this question though to all those who want reprintings of the big money cards: Why? And before you say WotC would make money from the venture, remember, they are already making a ton of money not printing those cards. Why would they risk angering a portion of their oldest, most stable constituency to appease a younger more volatile one? To me, all they are doing is mitigating their risks.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Because the reserve list puts every "collector" on notice. Your cards that are not on this list are fair game to be reprinted, and they have no problem mass printing them and cutting their value 50+%. Meaning anyone who gets mad about it is has no leg to stand on aside from personal greed.
They aren't going to reprint cards for no reason, but they'll absolutely reprint them to drive sales on a set.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I wish I had some concrete sources that could not also be described as purely circumstantial. I mean MTG is a unique game and a unique entity beyond the game aspect. Two very different things converge in it, namely a component based tabletop game and a long standing collectible entity i.e. trading cards. One thing is certain, MTG survived and blossomed in a time when trading cards of other sorts were nearly printed into oblivion. And from there it has only grown. Now what do we know about the secondary market? What does it do for the game? Well primarily it creates its own reason for stores to carry the product, independent of anything else. I suppose its sort of a branding thing. I mean what would a professional athletic team be, without the league its in supporting it? MTG is kind of self sustaining and the presence and very existence of the secondary market is a bi-product of that. And it, in turn supports the existence of extend formats. At least that's how I see it.
I wish I had some real hard stats on this but I'm not sure any exist. I mean I think it would be interesting to plot the growth of the secondary market venders in comparison to the overall growth of the game but alas I don't know of any place those numbers could be found.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Is it not also a sense of entitlement that cards others have spent money on, a lot of money on, should be reduced purely to allow an easier entry for folks that missed the boat? I mean it kinda is, though I too feel for younger players trying to get in. But through that struggle, through that cost, don't you also think one gains some appreciation for the game. Doesn't the face value of the game itself increase with the amount of difficulty it is to attain that level of competitiveness? Here's a bit different metaphor: Who values a fit body more, the one naturally gifted with it or the one who has to strive to attain it? Or another one: its not the treasure but the quest were in true value is to be found.
And you say there is nothing stopping reprints, but there clearly is since we don't have them. They might not seem like great reasons to use but surely they must be there. I mean if all that was at stake was money to be made, any business would grab at the opportunity. However there must be something else there that the casual onlooker misses.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I know dozens of people that have walked away from Hearthstone because of how hard it is to get certain 'extra' cards (no secondary market), there is no tournament play, its a game of fun and nothing else. They would rather play Magic then Hearthstone. I am sure Hearthstone appeals to a certain demographic but it is not getting all it can because of how its run.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
They are about as safe an investment as stocks are. :/
I feel you all. I'm disappointed as well with newer cards being CG. The biggest offender of this to me is Unflinching Courage .
To be fair, lifelink gains you the life at the same time damage resolves, so you can use it on a blocker to survive an attack. Armadillo Cloak (and other old "spirit link" cards) have a triggered ability that won't resolve until after you've been damaged. Sometimes Unflinching Courage is better than Armadillo Cloak, even if its effect doesn't stack. Also, Armadillo Cloak was a pretty ridiculous common.
If Goyf was splashed into Affinity and was so successful, then when is there zero decks playing it? It doesn't work in the deck. Why would the best beater in the format ever be an uncommon? The card is way too good for Uncommon and probably too good for Rare.
Amulet of Vigor the deck not the card. Azusa is $25 right now.
The people that cannot afford goyf are not the ones that put Boggles where it is. The pros got boggles, scapeshift, etc to work. They aren't gimmick decks. Some decks like Boggles and Infect just don't have enough support cards to be Tier 1.
The "real game" isn't even using goyf right now which is why he is dropping in price.
I'm hoping that there are less bad rares this time around. Reprint the following
Auriok Champion
Crucible of Worlds
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Threads of Disloyalty
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Dark Depths
Aven Mindcensor
Daybreak Coronet
Noble Hierarch
Bitterblossom
Fulminator Mage
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Mox Opal
Karn Liberated
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Amulet of Vigor DECK runs 4 Azusa and 4 Primeval Titans
I guess you need new glassesWell, I don't think anyone here even cares about what you believe.
You are being irrational, not everybody in the world wants to play with tarmogoyf in decks that lately don't win anything. But if a person with a light budget wants to play modern, the use-to-be cheap and good decks are now "slightly" expensive. (*excluding Delver decks which are cheap and win a lot)
Now, If I really had lots of Tarmogoyfs and friends I wouldn't be losing my time discussing with irrational people like yourself in this forum.
You really think wizards will reprint Tarmogoyf at uncommon? (Specially after reprinting it as a mythic) lol
[sarcasm] Do you want black lotuses at uncommon too? Or maybe you want wizards to deliver every mtg player the complete collection of magic cards?
Viva la MTG revolución! Socialism in Magic now![/sarcasm]
WAKE UP! Wizards only cares about profit, they would *never print tarmogoyfs at uncommon (*well maybe in a world were tamogoyf is banned from every format and nobody cares about her anymore).
I secretly ship Ral x Jace... and Nissa x Chandra... :">Because Temporal Trespass and Dig Through Time are so complex they need to be at Rare and Mythic?
I would argue that Dig is fairly complex. Trespass is mythic because MaRo has stated that taking extra turns feels mythic.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Ok, so it wasn't a typo. That just means it doesn't address the objection. You're using "intrinsic" in an ambiguous and, I think, internally inconsistent manner. Your alterations to your original post do not resolve this in the slightest. If anything, they amplify it. "Intrinsic value is created by illusory scarcity" is a nonsensical statement and you've not explained what you mean by it.
This is just a mess of confusions. They didn't "move" Tarmogoyf to mythic in any sense that would work in the context you're using; Future Sight Tarmogoyfs didn't become any rarer by it being reprinted at a higher rarity. It is true that for Standard-legal sets they focus on Standard, but they release other products with an eye to supporting non-rotating formats like, oh, Modern Masters, the very topic of this thread. If "expensive cards" was a goal unto itself then they'd just never reprint anything. They may as well keep adding stuff to the Reserved List, in fact. Having staples cost four figures is healthy, apparently, and therefore desirable in its own right. This is a confusion of demand- and supply-side pressures. When a card is so good that it's played in multiples in a large number of decks, that puts demand-side pressure on the price. This is a mark of a healthy game. When a card is limited because it was only sold in a very short print run to the Asia Pacific region in 1998, that's supply-side pressure and it's not healthy. You can't just decree high prices to be good for the game without examining the factors that go into them, and there is zero evidence that WotC takes this view.
the thing is: play rogue decks if you don't want to spend money on ur cards
i've made a $100 dollar deck that plays well versus the majority of the field, beats the crap out of $2000 bgs, and of course, has its weaknesses, but it plays like the tier decks of my state, i went in ptqs here and my results were among the highest of my friends and people in my city
the beauty of magic is that it has so many options that you can escape those cards with absurd prices by replacing or crating budget decks that work
ad nauseam is probably the strongest deck in this delver meta and is absurdely cheap compared to the tier decks.
the thing is: most people prefer to copy decks, if everybody wants to do so, then the same cards will have an absurd price, demand and offer is the law
now if you make an out of the box deck, you will pay cheaper, have the surprise effect AND you will have a lot of information of other people decks
make your own deck, it's hard, but fun and if you score well on a big tourney, you will be proud of your creativity and skill, just look at the death's shadow deck that showed out on top8, just look at the hive mind deck that turned into the bloom titan.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
it will be mythic if you don't need to flip/transform him,
this is one brilliant idea Wizards/MaRo should know.
I own 5 and I want them to drop in price just so people shut up about it already. If you were able to actually cast goyfs, you would realize that youre playing with a conditional vanilla 2 drop that you have to set up in order for it not to die to bolt on turn 2, and gets completely wrecked by rest in peace .
Also, goyf with affinity was never actually a thing. It popped up on time, as a meta call, and surprised people. Japanese players do wonky stuff all the time. Please stop using that as an example.