Modern is approaching legacy tier prices. I was able to trade bloom titan and goyfless junk for Death and Taxes straight up. Why on earth would you "invest" in modern, if you have the funds to do so, its really not all that much more to get into a much better format, and one where your investment is assured.
I think that the low print run is appalling, Goyf should be 50 dollars at most, there is no reason aside from price tag that its a mythic. And that's ridiculus. Does WOTC not get that the reason recent modern staples are not 60 dollars or more is because print runs since INN are massive?. I personally think it would be reasonable to increase the supply of each card in proportion to the number of new players who are playing, especially when they banned the other midrange deck that didn't need goyfs or lillies. Seriously, that ban took out half of the modern players at my LGS.
And I highly doubt that lowered goyf prices would spell the doom for magic. It seems to me that stores make far more money off of the little 6 or 10 dollar impulse purchases that you need for your sideboard, than the goyfs, bobs, and cliques.
I'm also convinced that the increased MSRP is wizards going "eh, the scalpers are going to win this(and then complain if we do something reasonable), lets get our cut of the secondary market"
that is just wrong.
in my local store we rotate between standard,draft and modern. so in order to play standard, i would still need to buy standard cards and that is what i currently do. i play both formats.
and why would wizards lose money. they wont care if i buy a box of prodact A or product B. they still sold a box.
and regarding the collectors. sorry, whats wrong with you, if you collect colored paper and think it has any value? i am player and i love to play tournaments. so that is why i want me and also my opponents to realize their strategies without any problems. i dont care if the card i wanna play is worth 10$ or 100$. its still one of the 60/75 cards of my concept. so the moment i have the card and use it, i dont care about its value, since i wont sell it. you get what i wanna say?
over the past years i had plenty of cards lose value. this happens in magic all the time.
the value we add to these cards is one of this communities mistakes. this community is raising the prices for some cards ridicolous high and now we are afraid they lose this value?
12 years ago exalted angel was a good card and is now worth nothn. no one cries about this anymore. i am sure some day we will stop cry about tarmos losing some value.
ask a starving kid in africa, what has more value. a bottle of water and a bread or a playset tarmogoyfs.
so i should not go into business you say. cause i cant take care of all people. ... let me compare this with my local stores community. there are 2 players with tarmogoyfs. but 20 would like to have it. now make a guess, about whos interests i would care ? will the 2 people cry when i sell the other 20 people tarmos ? maybe, but only if they are egoistic bad people, who dont want others to have what they have. what will happen to the other 20 people ? they are thankful about even out the chances at each tournament and i got 20 happy customer ^^
but as it is now, i got 20 unhappy customer, who say the product is overpriced and may leave the game, cause they cant compete anymore and the other 2 players stop playn, cause there are no opponents anymore. the game is dead
this is how u ruin your business...
but yea. you must be right. it must be far better for wizards to count on a few stupid people, who are willing to buy a overpriced product instead of selling it to a more fair price to wider player base.
you know wizards income is the number of boxes times the price. yes you can go 10.000x250$ and earn 2.5M or you can sell 50.000x100$ and make 5M
so if you wanna give me another advice about not running a business, value of sold products which wizards most likely doesnt care about, feel free to talk to me
I got news for you, man. Life is unfair. Deal with it.
How about wizards/LGS stores allow for pre-ordering of individual packs instead of just boxes? I mean this would allow all parties to have a piece of the Modern Masters pie in quantities that they feel comfortable with.
That would be a cluster**** for stores. Can you imagine keeping track of several hundred preorders when you're not set up to do so? And realistically, I can assure you that these stores aren't set up with a system like gamestop or anything, they're not prepared to handle a large number of preorders. Plus, where is the business advantage in selling single packs via preorder? The reason you can preorder a case at slightly over MSRP is that it moves a large quantity, quickly, allowing you to replenish capital, which is very important when you're ordering a product that is more than twice what you normally pay on a per box basis for a smaller amount. Any stores letting people preorder under MSRP are just being silly, and fully deserve to get taken advantage of.
If you hit up your LGS on 5/22, I'd say you stand a phenomenal chance at getting some product. Hit up 3-4-5-6 stores, you'll probably be able to walk away with at least one box of product. Modern Masters isn't a product that will be sold out from the get go, it's a limited-time opportunity, and that's clearly the way WotC wants it.
How about wizards/LGS stores allow for pre-ordering of individual packs instead of just boxes? I mean this would allow all parties to have a piece of the Modern Masters pie in quantities that they feel comfortable with.
That would be a cluster**** for stores. Can you imagine keeping track of several hundred preorders when you're not set up to do so? And realistically, I can assure you that these stores aren't set up with a system like gamestop or anything, they're not prepared to handle a large number of preorders. Plus, where is the business advantage in selling single packs via preorder? The reason you can preorder a case at slightly over MSRP is that it moves a large quantity, quickly, allowing you to replenish capital, which is very important when you're ordering a product that is more than twice what you normally pay on a per box basis for a smaller amount. Any stores letting people preorder under MSRP are just being silly, and fully deserve to get taken advantage of.
There's a big difference between ecommerce and brick and mortar. If I was running an e-commerce site with MTG as a product offering, I'd probably allow for preordering of packs as well, but in a brick and mortar? That's a lot of work for profit/revenue that will be generated regardless of if you offer preorders or not.
There's a big difference between ecommerce and brick and mortar. If I was running an e-commerce site with MTG as a product offering, I'd probably allow for preordering of packs as well, but in a brick and mortar? That's a lot of work for profit/revenue that will be generated regardless of if you offer preorders or not.
But look at the other side of the coin, store owners that did this would get a lot more foot traffic going into their stores. Every visitor to a store is a possible impulse purchase even if they do only pre-order a pack or two.
But I will agree with you that currently this could lead to a nightmare if the supply is the same as last time and stores had to reimburse pre-orders they could not hold up. But then again since we do not know how much we are getting, again, it makes me concerned if pre-ordering is even going to work for everyone that is doing so. Which again makes me feel that Wizards should be willing to work on a better release strategy.
But look at the other side of the coin, store owners that did this would get a lot more foot traffic going into their stores. Every visitor to a store is a possible impulse purchase even if they do only pre-order a pack or two.
But I will agree with you that currently this could lead to a nightmare if the supply is the same as last time and stores had to reimburse pre-orders they could not hold up. But then again since we do not know how much we are getting, again, it makes me concerned if pre-ordering is even going to work for everyone that is doing so. Which again makes me feel that Wizards should be willing to work on a better release strategy.
That's a good point. I suppose if a store owner has his stuff together and is keeping both computer and paper records of preordered packs, they could do this and accept that getting people in the door is a great way to drive foot traffic. That is a great point which I agree would justify the extra work provided they don't screw up.
It seems like most stores know how much they're getting at this point, or at least a range. I think that's what's led to the spike in preordered product available over the past couple weeks, and the concurrent fall of prices from $275 to $250.
My favorite game about modern masters discussions are every new page, count to see how many words before money is mentioned This page is 12. 12 words.
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I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
Your logic is flawed because even if the MSRP is like MM1 at $6 the stores will mark it to meet the EV. It is safe to say that there will be 4x more product available than MM1 (just going by the tri-GP alone).
We don't know how much more of MM15 there will be compared to MM1, or do you have a reliable source? In any case, just make the print run multiplier of MM15 high enough that stores can't price gouge MM15. It's really very simple.
edit: if the multiplier for MM15 is in fact 4x, I think it would have a very healthy impact on the prices of the most expensive reprints in the set. I'd be happy with that.
The GPs (if all 3 are at max) will equal 4x more product than GP Vegas 2013. While it may not be slam dunk that everything else is 4x, I think it will be a pretty safe bet. One of the places I go got in one case (3 boxes) last time (he isn't a magic store, doesn't have events, etc). He is expecting/hoping for 3 cases this time which is 12 boxes.
Just because it got more EXPENSIVE doesn't mean it got less ACCESSIBLE.
Oh Lord not again!
We live in the days of online shopping. You can get any card you want, as long as you have the money for it. There is absolutly NO ACCESSIBILITY problems, as long as you have the cash (and are able to open a browser, which you seem to be!).
We already had all this nonsense about making a difference between price and accessibility in this thread before. It was already found out that that it is wrong to do so. Please not another round.
If you read i again that's exactly what I just said, don't worry
They have grown the print run to accommodate the larger market. Modern IS more accessible because of MM1. Is it more inexpensive for you? Not necessarily, but in some cases yes it is. Are there more of the cards that were damaged, destroyed, or otherwise just hard to find? Yes, yes there are. They introduced new product into the market and the people who were willing to put some money into it got to build decks. Just because it got more EXPENSIVE doesn't mean it got less ACCESSIBLE. There are infinitely more people playing Modern as a result of the original product, and the same thing will no doubt happen again. Plan accordingly and buy BEFORE the mythic spikes, etc. Be SMART WITH YOUR MONEY and it won't be an issue.
Can you actually back this up with information because at my local LGS no one has even tried to have a modern format game. So please understand that I am not seeing this infinitely larger player base of modern.
Also the problem a lot of us are having is that paying out $250 or higher up front for a box of something we are not sure we are even going to fully want in such a quantity is a bit too much. Buying something you have little to no information of is not being smart with your money. But this does give me an idea.
How about wizards/LGS stores allow for pre-ordering of individual packs instead of just boxes? I mean this would allow all parties to have a piece of the Modern Masters pie in quantities that they feel comfortable with.
1) Your store alone is not a fair sample, especially if Modern still doesn't fire. In each store I visited when Modern was first announced and for the months following, a few people would build decks and play against each other. Once Modern Masters was announced, people streamed into the store to buy boxes and draft all night. These gave people access to cards for Burn, Pyromancer Ascension, Affinity, Faeries (lol), Jund, Blue Moon (not invented yet), and plenty of other decks. After that, actual Modern FNMs started to fire and the format took off.
2) Here's the deal: DON'T BUY BOXES. If you're actually "playing for fun" or "for the game", and you don't have the money, you NEED to buy singles and NOT packs. Sure it's less fun, but if you're paying for product, you should be drafting it and attempting to win prize support because that's fiscally responsible and increases your chance of that gamble paying off. Nobody is asking you to buy a box. Just wait til a month after release and buy the singles you need for a deck.
3) That's hard for store owners who have built their own inventories but it's a possibility. The point is, your smart money is on avoiding packs altogether unless you're drafting. It's never a good idea unless you can get this kind of product at MSRP and want to sell all of it to make a small margin.
I'm legitimately curious if there are any hard numbers somewhere on the affect Modern Masters had on Modern. Not some marketing manipulation or hype machine propaganda, but real, honest numbers. Cost of decks before and after, number of tournaments, tournament attendance, that kind of thing. And when I talk about number of tournaments/attendance, I mean in a per capita-style sense. I understand Magic is more popular than a year (or five) ago, so a strict comparison in the actual numbers may not be appropriate, but if we know how many tournaments fire for every player of magic before and after MM1, it would actually provide useful data as to the success that MM1 had (or didn't) in bringing new players to the format.
I think we all understand that, from Wizard's perspective, MM1 was a rousing success. Even from the perspective of players and businesses, it was successful; what with being one of the best draft environments in the history of the game and allowing for 300+% profit margins, respectively. The question I think everyone is missing is, should we even be looking at the MM series of sets as a goal to reduce the barrier to entry into the format, or should we be looking at it as a short term great draft environment that also gives us a shot at a money card or two? Regardless of what Wizards says they want, what are they actually showing us.
I'm legitimately curious if there are any hard numbers somewhere on the affect Modern Masters had on Modern. Not some marketing manipulation or hype machine propaganda, but real, honest numbers. Cost of decks before and after, number of tournaments, tournament attendance, that kind of thing. And when I talk about number of tournaments/attendance, I mean in a per capita-style sense. I understand Magic is more popular than a year (or five) ago, so a strict comparison in the actual numbers may not be appropriate, but if we know how many tournaments fire for every player of magic before and after MM1, it would actually provide useful data as to the success that MM1 had (or didn't) in bringing new players to the format.
I think we all understand that, from Wizard's perspective, MM1 was a rousing success. Even from the perspective of players and businesses, it was successful; what with being one of the best draft environments in the history of the game and allowing for 300+% profit margins, respectively. The question I think everyone is missing is, should we even be looking at the MM series of sets as a goal to reduce the barrier to entry into the format, or should we be looking at it as a short term great draft environment that also gives us a shot at a money card or two? Regardless of what Wizards says they want, what are they actually showing us.
Tarmogoyf/Bob/Clique/etc. all went up in price while also going up in supply. If there is an increase in supply, prices should drop, unless there is also an increase in in demand. Because prices did increase on the best cards, it is a pretty easy conclusion that demand had to go up more than supply went up.
We also know that WOTC cancelled the Modern PT, and due to community pressure (maybe from a vocal minority), they changed their mind and re-instituted the Modern PT.
This is obviously not "hard" evidence, but it is very strong evidence that there was a higher demand for Modern after MM than there was before it.
But look at the other side of the coin, store owners that did this would get a lot more foot traffic going into their stores. Every visitor to a store is a possible impulse purchase even if they do only pre-order a pack or two.
But I will agree with you that currently this could lead to a nightmare if the supply is the same as last time and stores had to reimburse pre-orders they could not hold up. But then again since we do not know how much we are getting, again, it makes me concerned if pre-ordering is even going to work for everyone that is doing so. Which again makes me feel that Wizards should be willing to work on a better release strategy.
That's a good point. I suppose if a store owner has his stuff together and is keeping both computer and paper records of preordered packs, they could do this and accept that getting people in the door is a great way to drive foot traffic. That is a great point which I agree would justify the extra work provided they don't screw up.
It seems like most stores know how much they're getting at this point, or at least a range. I think that's what's led to the spike in preordered product available over the past couple weeks, and the concurrent fall of prices from $275 to $250.
Oh, I did not hear that the prices are going towards MSRP to such a degree. This does make me feel more positive about how this next installment will go. thanks for that bit of information.
Sales consultant. I'm the one you bring in when you can't figure out why your store is failing. I also have the education and, more importantly, real world experience to back up what I'm saying. Which is inevitably going to turn this into a johnson-measuring contest, but whatever.
Look, anything tagged with 'Modern Masters' on it was going to get hype, even if the entire set was spoiled tomorrow and it was only second-tier reprints. The fact that it does have a hype train behind it by carrying some top-tier reprints is great...if it were for Wizards to make money on said hype. Easy profits, like you said. Limiting the product is plain stupid. LGS's get thrown a bone in terms of easy profits in a set like this, where the hype is there. Let's draft it, let's play the goyf lottery, let's buy a box. That's real hype. Limiting the product, having the LGS calling his distributor saying 'i love this! my players love this! I want more!' and saying 'no, sorry, sold out' - that's artificial hype.
We already have a precedent with Modern Masters in terms of what the 'limited supply' did to the product. It launched, people got excited about the product, it raised hype, people went to buy. At launch it was $10 a pack, if you were lucky, due to dealers finding out how little they could reorder from the distributor the week they got their product (yes, the notice was that short...everyone knew it was limited, but HOW limited they kept LGS's completely in the dark about). I watched the threshold of what the market could bear in the Charlotte metro area. Different numbers might apply city to city, I remember when I was working in Cleveland, it was higher, Buffalo was a lot lower. But basically, $12 was okay. $15 slowed everyone down. $17 and no one bought it. $20 and the packs behind the counter literally have dust on them now. Boxes are still out there, hoarded, but the price per box now is so high that if any one of 6 retailers in the metro area were to drop prices in the hopes of turning them over fast, another shop would just do a run on them and clear their stock, and hoard them (SCG does this exact thing, on a much bigger scale), and the price would remain at $20. It's like a Mexican Standoff between the retailers, no one is blinking, and players aren't buying.
So Cryptic dropped down to $25, soared past it's old price and settled at $60. Because of a reprint? Wizards answer: limit the product once again, but not as much. Jack the MSRP. Well, at least they're showing they're not completely brain damaged and are actually cashing in on this hype somewhat this time. But with 2 years between releases and this enormous yo-yo effect in prices, they're running a risk of exhausting the player base. You can't say the long-term effects of this 'sorry the reprints caused a price spike instead of a decline, better luck next time' isn't going to eventually cause buzz around the format to wane.
Just trying to be a tad pragmatic here. I mean, seriously, man...who the hell wants to pay $60 for a draft and get a Skeletal Vampire?
I mean, look outside the reprints for 2 seconds. Linvala, Pontiff, and Archangel of Thune all took 20-50% hits in value with the Birthing Pod ban. Are you going to tell me LGS's were outside WoTC's offices with pitchforks over the lost revenue? No, they have other avenues. The players rocking that deck with no warning whatsoever the ban was coming are now finding that their investment in the format has not only taken a hit, but such a massive one the deck in it's entirety is now barely worth a down payment on a new one - that's hype, too, don't forget that, just all the wrong kind.
We're talking about sustainability here. The new, young player base, the Standard kids blowing mom's money or Burger King paychecks on Sarkhan Unbroken, they aren't like either of us. They're not older, established, and have long-term views. They look at us like 'the old guys with the expensive cards'. I drop a Verdant, fetch a Temple Garden, drop a Noble Hierarch. You see me making a turn 1 play to a mana dork. They see I just dropped more money on the table than they make in a week. (As a side note, I see me dropping my cards I got when they were 25% of their current value, because I was lucky enough to play them Standard-legal) If they keep that perspective, that Modern is a millionaire's club, well - you know how it goes. You tell 1 person about a great experience, you tell 10 about a bad one. Expanding the player base is growth. Locking them out of it isn't a long-term strategy, unless that strategy is to stress-test your customers and see if they break.
So what's the best way to deal with MM2015. Buy a box, and draft as much as you can, or something like that? I'm kinda inbetween jobs right now, the one I have now is ending, but chances are I'll be able to go from a part time programming job to full time one. Though my dad will get mad at if I spend to much on boxes, since for some reason my dad thinks it's a kids game.
Yea, a real Mexican standoff indeed. It's not uncommon for many LGS to be holding all the white elephants in the room. A product that is not sold has less chances of being open.
It's a practice which Wizards shouldn't encourage; I definitely think hoarding should be taken into account. It's hard to quantify, but I believe Wizards have enough data to tabulate a decent prediction.
The potential problem is that Wizards are still overly cautious, and thus one may still find MM2015 to be more conservative than expected.
If they keep that perspective, that Modern is a millionaire's club, well - you know how it goes. You tell 1 person about a great experience, you tell 10 about a bad one. Expanding the player base is growth. Locking them out of it isn't a long-term strategy, unless that strategy is to stress-test your customers and see if they break.
What he said. Games live through flow of new players. Stop that flow and the game's dead.
So what's the best way to deal with MM2015. Buy a box, and draft as much as you can, or something like that? I'm kinda inbetween jobs right now, the one I have now is ending, but chances are I'll be able to go from a part time programming job to full time one. Though my dad will get mad at if I spend to much on boxes, since for some reason my dad thinks it's a kids game.
With a box you can play a single draft (24 boosters per box, 8 players get 3 boosters each to draft with). I wouldn't pay 300$ (or 250$) to just feed a draft pod, honestly...
But basically, $12 was okay. $15 slowed everyone down. $17 and no one bought it. $20 and the packs behind the counter literally have dust on them now. Boxes are still out there, hoarded, but the price per box now is so high that if any one of 6 retailers in the metro area were to drop prices in the hopes of turning them over fast, another shop would just do a run on them and clear their stock, and hoard them (SCG does this exact thing, on a much bigger scale), and the price would remain at $20. It's like a Mexican Standoff between the retailers, no one is blinking, and players aren't buying.
So the market price has stabilized at around $17 to $20 per pack of MM1. If retailers want to have MM1 inventory in stock, they keep it at that level. If the want/need to sale/liquidate then they drop the price to around $12 to $15 per pack of MM1. Whether it's other retailers or players who buy at that point is irrelevant, it's whoever wants to purchase the product.
We're talking about sustainability here. The new, young player base, the Standard kids blowing mom's money or Burger King paychecks on Sarkhan Unbroken, they aren't like either of us. They're not older, established, and have long-term views. They look at us like 'the old guys with the expensive cards'. I drop a Verdant, fetch a Temple Garden, drop a Noble Hierarch. You see me making a turn 1 play to a mana dork. They see I just dropped more money on the table than they make in a week. (As a side note, I see me dropping my cards I got when they were 25% of their current value, because I was lucky enough to play them Standard-legal) If they keep that perspective, that Modern is a millionaire's club, well - you know how it goes. You tell 1 person about a great experience, you tell 10 about a bad one. Expanding the player base is growth. Locking them out of it isn't a long-term strategy, unless that strategy is to stress-test your customers and see if they break.
Magic has always been an expensive hobby. Most players start when they are somewhat younger, they may leave the game and come back again. For the ones that are lucky enough to get their Abrupt Decays, Temple Gardens, Flooded Strands, Polluted Deltas, Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs, etc., etc. when they were Standard-legal and 25% of their future value then one day they'll be in the Modern millionaire's club too. And the beat goes on.
But basically, $12 was okay. $15 slowed everyone down. $17 and no one bought it. $20 and the packs behind the counter literally have dust on them now. Boxes are still out there, hoarded, but the price per box now is so high that if any one of 6 retailers in the metro area were to drop prices in the hopes of turning them over fast, another shop would just do a run on them and clear their stock, and hoard them (SCG does this exact thing, on a much bigger scale), and the price would remain at $20. It's like a Mexican Standoff between the retailers, no one is blinking, and players aren't buying.
So the market price has stabilized at around $17 to $20 per pack of MM1. If retailers want to have MM1 inventory in stock, they keep it at that level. If the want/need to sale/liquidate then they drop the price to around $12 to $15 per pack of MM1. Whether it's other retailers or players who buy at that point is irrelevant, it's whoever wants to purchase the product.
We're talking about sustainability here. The new, young player base, the Standard kids blowing mom's money or Burger King paychecks on Sarkhan Unbroken, they aren't like either of us. They're not older, established, and have long-term views. They look at us like 'the old guys with the expensive cards'. I drop a Verdant, fetch a Temple Garden, drop a Noble Hierarch. You see me making a turn 1 play to a mana dork. They see I just dropped more money on the table than they make in a week. (As a side note, I see me dropping my cards I got when they were 25% of their current value, because I was lucky enough to play them Standard-legal) If they keep that perspective, that Modern is a millionaire's club, well - you know how it goes. You tell 1 person about a great experience, you tell 10 about a bad one. Expanding the player base is growth. Locking them out of it isn't a long-term strategy, unless that strategy is to stress-test your customers and see if they break.
Magic has always been an expensive hobby. Most players start when they are somewhat younger, they may leave the game and come back again. For the ones that are lucky enough to get their Abrupt Decays, Temple Gardens, Flooded Strands, Polluted Deltas, Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs, etc., etc. when they were Standard-legal and 25% of their future value then one day they'll be in the Modern millionaire's club too. And the beat goes on.
You're absolutely right. Magic has always been expensive. It's always been $600 to build a 'budget' deck. There hasn't been any surge in prices to levels that are both artificial and unsustainable in the long term. And screw the people wanting to get into modern now. If they wait long enough, sometime in their 20's when they come back to the game, their old cards in their closet might be worth playing. I am so done with arguing against the counterpoint when it is this self-entitled and positively stupid.
I often wonder what goes through the mind of people that see something I post and decide to quote it and reply. 'Hey, let me remind him of the valid point that people not entering the format because they can't afford it can go screw, prices are fine where they are and the game will live on without them'...yes, congratulations, that's a valid point. 'I should also point out that if retailers in your area want to sell them, they can drop the price and someone will buy them'...also wonderfully valid, albeit painfully obvious and not in any way the point. At least your post count went up, so there's that.
good Lord, please just give us spoilers already! this endless loop of economics and ethics and doomsaying is really getting boring. I hope Bob is in it again, it would be cool to own a playset, I don't care asbout Goyf, it does not impress me, but Bob opens up so much room to brew
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Tarmogoyf/Bob/Clique/etc. all went up in price while also going up in supply. If there is an increase in supply, prices should drop, unless there is also an increase in in demand. Because prices did increase on the best cards, it is a pretty easy conclusion that demand had to go up more than supply went up.
We also know that WOTC cancelled the Modern PT, and due to community pressure (maybe from a vocal minority), they changed their mind and re-instituted the Modern PT.
This is obviously not "hard" evidence, but it is very strong evidence that there was a higher demand for Modern after MM than there was before it.
None of this actually illustrates what I am looking for. A few money cards went up in price, (maybe) but that doesn't automatically mean the cost of a deck went up, nor that the barrier to entry is higher. Just because there was public pressure to bring back a Modern PT also doesn't mean that there are more players playing a format. There may have just been an already large, vocal player base for the format.
I often wonder what goes through the mind of people that see something I post and decide to quote it and reply. 'Hey, let me remind him of the valid point that people not entering the format because they can't afford it can go screw, prices are fine where they are and the game will live on without them'...yes, congratulations, that's a valid point. 'I should also point out that if retailers in your area want to sell them, they can drop the price and someone will buy them'...also wonderfully valid, albeit painfully obvious and not in any way the point. At least your post count went up, so there's that.
Well Mr. Sales Consultant offering unsolicited advice on a message board to WOTC about how they are messing up with their Modern format... the thought is this is a message board where other people are free to comment on the topic. That is no doubt painfully obvious to you as well. But hey, you asked.
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I think that the low print run is appalling, Goyf should be 50 dollars at most, there is no reason aside from price tag that its a mythic. And that's ridiculus. Does WOTC not get that the reason recent modern staples are not 60 dollars or more is because print runs since INN are massive?. I personally think it would be reasonable to increase the supply of each card in proportion to the number of new players who are playing, especially when they banned the other midrange deck that didn't need goyfs or lillies. Seriously, that ban took out half of the modern players at my LGS.
And I highly doubt that lowered goyf prices would spell the doom for magic. It seems to me that stores make far more money off of the little 6 or 10 dollar impulse purchases that you need for your sideboard, than the goyfs, bobs, and cliques.
I'm also convinced that the increased MSRP is wizards going "eh, the scalpers are going to win this(and then complain if we do something reasonable), lets get our cut of the secondary market"
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Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I got news for you, man. Life is unfair. Deal with it.
That would be a cluster**** for stores. Can you imagine keeping track of several hundred preorders when you're not set up to do so? And realistically, I can assure you that these stores aren't set up with a system like gamestop or anything, they're not prepared to handle a large number of preorders. Plus, where is the business advantage in selling single packs via preorder? The reason you can preorder a case at slightly over MSRP is that it moves a large quantity, quickly, allowing you to replenish capital, which is very important when you're ordering a product that is more than twice what you normally pay on a per box basis for a smaller amount. Any stores letting people preorder under MSRP are just being silly, and fully deserve to get taken advantage of.
If you hit up your LGS on 5/22, I'd say you stand a phenomenal chance at getting some product. Hit up 3-4-5-6 stores, you'll probably be able to walk away with at least one box of product. Modern Masters isn't a product that will be sold out from the get go, it's a limited-time opportunity, and that's clearly the way WotC wants it.
Well, have a look at this then: https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Boosters/Modern Masters 2015 Booster
My Modern Decks:
BGWAbzan MidrangeWGB
UWRJeskai NahiriRWU
BRUGrixis ControlURB
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
There's a big difference between ecommerce and brick and mortar. If I was running an e-commerce site with MTG as a product offering, I'd probably allow for preordering of packs as well, but in a brick and mortar? That's a lot of work for profit/revenue that will be generated regardless of if you offer preorders or not.
But look at the other side of the coin, store owners that did this would get a lot more foot traffic going into their stores. Every visitor to a store is a possible impulse purchase even if they do only pre-order a pack or two.
But I will agree with you that currently this could lead to a nightmare if the supply is the same as last time and stores had to reimburse pre-orders they could not hold up. But then again since we do not know how much we are getting, again, it makes me concerned if pre-ordering is even going to work for everyone that is doing so. Which again makes me feel that Wizards should be willing to work on a better release strategy.
That's a good point. I suppose if a store owner has his stuff together and is keeping both computer and paper records of preordered packs, they could do this and accept that getting people in the door is a great way to drive foot traffic. That is a great point which I agree would justify the extra work provided they don't screw up.
It seems like most stores know how much they're getting at this point, or at least a range. I think that's what's led to the spike in preordered product available over the past couple weeks, and the concurrent fall of prices from $275 to $250.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
The GPs (if all 3 are at max) will equal 4x more product than GP Vegas 2013. While it may not be slam dunk that everything else is 4x, I think it will be a pretty safe bet. One of the places I go got in one case (3 boxes) last time (he isn't a magic store, doesn't have events, etc). He is expecting/hoping for 3 cases this time which is 12 boxes.
If you read i again that's exactly what I just said, don't worry
1) Your store alone is not a fair sample, especially if Modern still doesn't fire. In each store I visited when Modern was first announced and for the months following, a few people would build decks and play against each other. Once Modern Masters was announced, people streamed into the store to buy boxes and draft all night. These gave people access to cards for Burn, Pyromancer Ascension, Affinity, Faeries (lol), Jund, Blue Moon (not invented yet), and plenty of other decks. After that, actual Modern FNMs started to fire and the format took off.
2) Here's the deal: DON'T BUY BOXES. If you're actually "playing for fun" or "for the game", and you don't have the money, you NEED to buy singles and NOT packs. Sure it's less fun, but if you're paying for product, you should be drafting it and attempting to win prize support because that's fiscally responsible and increases your chance of that gamble paying off. Nobody is asking you to buy a box. Just wait til a month after release and buy the singles you need for a deck.
3) That's hard for store owners who have built their own inventories but it's a possibility. The point is, your smart money is on avoiding packs altogether unless you're drafting. It's never a good idea unless you can get this kind of product at MSRP and want to sell all of it to make a small margin.
I think we all understand that, from Wizard's perspective, MM1 was a rousing success. Even from the perspective of players and businesses, it was successful; what with being one of the best draft environments in the history of the game and allowing for 300+% profit margins, respectively. The question I think everyone is missing is, should we even be looking at the MM series of sets as a goal to reduce the barrier to entry into the format, or should we be looking at it as a short term great draft environment that also gives us a shot at a money card or two? Regardless of what Wizards says they want, what are they actually showing us.
Tarmogoyf/Bob/Clique/etc. all went up in price while also going up in supply. If there is an increase in supply, prices should drop, unless there is also an increase in in demand. Because prices did increase on the best cards, it is a pretty easy conclusion that demand had to go up more than supply went up.
We also know that WOTC cancelled the Modern PT, and due to community pressure (maybe from a vocal minority), they changed their mind and re-instituted the Modern PT.
This is obviously not "hard" evidence, but it is very strong evidence that there was a higher demand for Modern after MM than there was before it.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Oh, I did not hear that the prices are going towards MSRP to such a degree. This does make me feel more positive about how this next installment will go. thanks for that bit of information.
This.
Sales consultant. I'm the one you bring in when you can't figure out why your store is failing. I also have the education and, more importantly, real world experience to back up what I'm saying. Which is inevitably going to turn this into a johnson-measuring contest, but whatever.
Look, anything tagged with 'Modern Masters' on it was going to get hype, even if the entire set was spoiled tomorrow and it was only second-tier reprints. The fact that it does have a hype train behind it by carrying some top-tier reprints is great...if it were for Wizards to make money on said hype. Easy profits, like you said. Limiting the product is plain stupid. LGS's get thrown a bone in terms of easy profits in a set like this, where the hype is there. Let's draft it, let's play the goyf lottery, let's buy a box. That's real hype. Limiting the product, having the LGS calling his distributor saying 'i love this! my players love this! I want more!' and saying 'no, sorry, sold out' - that's artificial hype.
We already have a precedent with Modern Masters in terms of what the 'limited supply' did to the product. It launched, people got excited about the product, it raised hype, people went to buy. At launch it was $10 a pack, if you were lucky, due to dealers finding out how little they could reorder from the distributor the week they got their product (yes, the notice was that short...everyone knew it was limited, but HOW limited they kept LGS's completely in the dark about). I watched the threshold of what the market could bear in the Charlotte metro area. Different numbers might apply city to city, I remember when I was working in Cleveland, it was higher, Buffalo was a lot lower. But basically, $12 was okay. $15 slowed everyone down. $17 and no one bought it. $20 and the packs behind the counter literally have dust on them now. Boxes are still out there, hoarded, but the price per box now is so high that if any one of 6 retailers in the metro area were to drop prices in the hopes of turning them over fast, another shop would just do a run on them and clear their stock, and hoard them (SCG does this exact thing, on a much bigger scale), and the price would remain at $20. It's like a Mexican Standoff between the retailers, no one is blinking, and players aren't buying.
So Cryptic dropped down to $25, soared past it's old price and settled at $60. Because of a reprint? Wizards answer: limit the product once again, but not as much. Jack the MSRP. Well, at least they're showing they're not completely brain damaged and are actually cashing in on this hype somewhat this time. But with 2 years between releases and this enormous yo-yo effect in prices, they're running a risk of exhausting the player base. You can't say the long-term effects of this 'sorry the reprints caused a price spike instead of a decline, better luck next time' isn't going to eventually cause buzz around the format to wane.
Just trying to be a tad pragmatic here. I mean, seriously, man...who the hell wants to pay $60 for a draft and get a Skeletal Vampire?
I mean, look outside the reprints for 2 seconds. Linvala, Pontiff, and Archangel of Thune all took 20-50% hits in value with the Birthing Pod ban. Are you going to tell me LGS's were outside WoTC's offices with pitchforks over the lost revenue? No, they have other avenues. The players rocking that deck with no warning whatsoever the ban was coming are now finding that their investment in the format has not only taken a hit, but such a massive one the deck in it's entirety is now barely worth a down payment on a new one - that's hype, too, don't forget that, just all the wrong kind.
We're talking about sustainability here. The new, young player base, the Standard kids blowing mom's money or Burger King paychecks on Sarkhan Unbroken, they aren't like either of us. They're not older, established, and have long-term views. They look at us like 'the old guys with the expensive cards'. I drop a Verdant, fetch a Temple Garden, drop a Noble Hierarch. You see me making a turn 1 play to a mana dork. They see I just dropped more money on the table than they make in a week. (As a side note, I see me dropping my cards I got when they were 25% of their current value, because I was lucky enough to play them Standard-legal) If they keep that perspective, that Modern is a millionaire's club, well - you know how it goes. You tell 1 person about a great experience, you tell 10 about a bad one. Expanding the player base is growth. Locking them out of it isn't a long-term strategy, unless that strategy is to stress-test your customers and see if they break.
It's a practice which Wizards shouldn't encourage; I definitely think hoarding should be taken into account. It's hard to quantify, but I believe Wizards have enough data to tabulate a decent prediction.
The potential problem is that Wizards are still overly cautious, and thus one may still find MM2015 to be more conservative than expected.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
What he said. Games live through flow of new players. Stop that flow and the game's dead.
With a box you can play a single draft (24 boosters per box, 8 players get 3 boosters each to draft with). I wouldn't pay 300$ (or 250$) to just feed a draft pod, honestly...
So the market price has stabilized at around $17 to $20 per pack of MM1. If retailers want to have MM1 inventory in stock, they keep it at that level. If the want/need to sale/liquidate then they drop the price to around $12 to $15 per pack of MM1. Whether it's other retailers or players who buy at that point is irrelevant, it's whoever wants to purchase the product.
Magic has always been an expensive hobby. Most players start when they are somewhat younger, they may leave the game and come back again. For the ones that are lucky enough to get their Abrupt Decays, Temple Gardens, Flooded Strands, Polluted Deltas, Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs, etc., etc. when they were Standard-legal and 25% of their future value then one day they'll be in the Modern millionaire's club too. And the beat goes on.
You're absolutely right. Magic has always been expensive. It's always been $600 to build a 'budget' deck. There hasn't been any surge in prices to levels that are both artificial and unsustainable in the long term. And screw the people wanting to get into modern now. If they wait long enough, sometime in their 20's when they come back to the game, their old cards in their closet might be worth playing. I am so done with arguing against the counterpoint when it is this self-entitled and positively stupid.
I often wonder what goes through the mind of people that see something I post and decide to quote it and reply. 'Hey, let me remind him of the valid point that people not entering the format because they can't afford it can go screw, prices are fine where they are and the game will live on without them'...yes, congratulations, that's a valid point. 'I should also point out that if retailers in your area want to sell them, they can drop the price and someone will buy them'...also wonderfully valid, albeit painfully obvious and not in any way the point. At least your post count went up, so there's that.
None of this actually illustrates what I am looking for. A few money cards went up in price, (maybe) but that doesn't automatically mean the cost of a deck went up, nor that the barrier to entry is higher. Just because there was public pressure to bring back a Modern PT also doesn't mean that there are more players playing a format. There may have just been an already large, vocal player base for the format.
Well Mr. Sales Consultant offering unsolicited advice on a message board to WOTC about how they are messing up with their Modern format... the thought is this is a message board where other people are free to comment on the topic. That is no doubt painfully obvious to you as well. But hey, you asked.