Like many others, I find this card to represent young-Nahiri's skillset pretty well. When/if we get another card of her she'll probably have learned how to use her hedrons for binding magic, though I think it would be interesting to keep some of her equipment-oriented mechanics since there are no other planeswalkers with her mechanical space, which definitely helps the argument that she'll be sticking around.
Like many others, I find this card to represent young-Nahiri's skillset pretty well. When/if we get another card of her she'll probably have learned how to use her hedrons for binding magic, though I think it would be interesting to keep some of her equipment-oriented mechanics since there are no other planeswalkers with her mechanical space, which definitely helps the argument that she'll be sticking around.
That's really my only complaint. I wish she had more interesting effects that represented her binding and hedron construction abilities. But you bring up a good point. If an older, wiser version of Nahari appears latter on with said abilities, I will have no qualms what so ever.
"Nahiri was gone and her silence disturbed him." Now gone can mean dead but the silence disturbed him is the odd line. If Sorin means she is dead why would silence disturb him? To my mind this makes me think Sorin has reason to think she is alive despite the mending just not on Zendikar.
She tasked herself with protecting Zendikar and keeping vigil over the Eldrazi. She wasn't present there nor did she left any messages, so such a complete silence would be disturbing - unless he did know her fate (whatever it was).
Another thing that makes me think that she may be alive but not on Zendikar is the Dreams of the Dammed uncharted realms Ob Nixilis dose not seem to know her whereabouts since he has set himself up as an information broker for planeswalkers entering Zendikar it seems odd that if she died there after the mending he would be unaware of it.
You're giving him too much credit. He calls himself a guide - so it stands to reason he would give them information on the unique features of Zendikar, some info about Nahiri, but I doubt he has full knowledge of things that go on around the world
Yes but the death of its major protector a woman that he hates with a passion would have been the kind of information he and and any other planeswalker entering Zendikar would want to know especially if she was so fastidious in her guardianship of the plane that she attacked Ob Nixilis within moments of his arrival. Had it been the mending killing her she would have had time to leave messages for and try and find and warn Sorin and Ugin, who Bolas would already have taken out but still no reason she would no that, that Zendikar would no longer be protected and the eldrazi jailer was dead or about to be.
I am just saying that the only thing we no for certain is that she isnt on Zendikar.
What if she was kidnapped by Nicol Bolas? From what I've been told, didn't he want the Eldrazi released for some reason? I'm sure he wouldn't want Nahiri around when they get released on that basis. Would also give Bolas and Ugin reason enough to fight.
What if she was kidnapped by Nicol Bolas? From what I've been told, didn't he want the Eldrazi released for some reason? I'm sure he wouldn't want Nahiri around when they get released on that basis. Would also give Bolas and Ugin reason enough to fight.
Nicol Bolas wouldn't need to worry if she's actually dead.
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What if she was kidnapped by Nicol Bolas? From what I've been told, didn't he want the Eldrazi released for some reason? I'm sure he wouldn't want Nahiri around when they get released on that basis. Would also give Bolas and Ugin reason enough to fight.
Nicol Bolas wouldn't need to worry if she's actually dead.
This. Why take the riskier option, when you can easily remove said risk?
Yes but the death of its major protector a woman that he hates with a passion would have been the kind of information he and and any other planeswalker entering Zendikar would want to know especially if she was so fastidious in her guardianship of the plane that she attacked Ob Nixilis within moments of his arrival. Had it been the mending killing her she would have had time to leave messages for and try and find and warn Sorin and Ugin, who Bolas would already have taken out but still no reason she would no that, that Zendikar would no longer be protected and the eldrazi jailer was dead or about to be.
It would have been. However, he doesn't have as many ways of gaining intel as he would want - I'm sure most people don't enjoy chats with demons. He would know of her death if he'd find the body or learn about it from the killer/a witness (which he could be himself). I can imagine many cases in which there would be no corpse to find nor any witnesses to the deed - so he wouldn't know anything other than she seemed to disappear.
Maybe Nicol Bolas needed her for some reason, like to do with the Hedrons... I'm not saying it's likely, just saying it could explain where she is if she's not dead. After all, I agree with some of the other posters. Her silence wouldn't be unsettling if she was dead.
Maybe Nicol Bolas needed her for some reason, like to do with the Hedrons... I'm not saying it's likely, just saying it could explain where she is if she's not dead. After all, I agree with some of the other posters. Her silence wouldn't be unsettling if she was dead.
Reading that Uncharted Realm article made me sort of realize that her role isn't too deep of an importance as I thought it would be as it was Ugin's magic/runes that majorly powered the whole system... without Ugin's magicks the Hedrons are just really tough stones.
And to me that quote in Sorin's UR entry (unless given more background by Creative) is just taken way too deep by most people. It could be that he's unsettled by Nahiri's silence due to him working with her and Ugin for 40 years straight laying down the Hedron network.
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Why not simply print a hedron artifact that does what the sealing hedron is supposed to do? Though I suppose what you guys want is for Nahiri to create hedron tokens similar to how she created the hedrons that sealed the Eldrazi. Well, there's always a chance we'll see Nahiri, Hedron Crafter as a future PW card. I would like to note however that the sealing magic wasn't purely Nahiri's doing - Ugin provided the draconic runes that made the hedrons work. Perhaps we should be asking for an Ugin with such sealing magic instead?
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
my complaint has nothing to do with goodstuff. The other four commanders can be used for pretty much any archetype, where nahiri is exclusive to one. She is also atrocious as a voltron commander as you're locking yourself into mono white, can't win with general damage, and only has one decent ability.
The niche she fills in a lot of decks is irrelevant, because they're all the same archetype. Her + is garbage, her ult is garbage, and her only relevant ability can only be used every other of your turns.
Don't compare her to polis lady. One was designed for multiplayer and the other was designed for standard. You also don't need to build around her, as she'll still draw you cards regardless of what your deck is or does and is a 6/5 indestructible. Nahiri does none of these things.
Have you READ Daretti? You aren't going to stick him in any old Red deck and expect to get value out of him. Even if you aren't running Equipment, Nahiri still generates extra bodies for no further investment, and it's not like White has tons of creature token support or anything. You need to be running equipment to get the best value out of her, yes, but anything that can generate free extra bodies is still useful in a ton of White decks.
red guy gives card draw to a color with not a whole lot, his - trades mana rocks for better equipment tossed with his + or destroyed and isn't as restrictive as nahiri's, and his ult is relevant for any deck with artifacts that sac themselves; mindstone, baubles, o-stone, vault, ect. Some of which are red's only way to deal with certain perms any types. Every mono red deck i've ever seen fields artifacts. Not every white deck fields equipment.
As for her tokens; there are so many other sources of token generation in white that do more than a single 1/1 on your turn.
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
Why not simply print a hedron artifact that does what the sealing hedron is supposed to do? Though I suppose what you guys want is for Nahiri to create hedron tokens similar to how she created the hedrons that sealed the Eldrazi. Well, there's always a chance we'll see Nahiri, Hedron Crafter as a future PW card. I would like to note however that the sealing magic wasn't purely Nahiri's doing - Ugin provided the draconic runes that made the hedrons work. Perhaps we should be asking for an Ugin with such sealing magic instead?
I think Perilous Vault is supposed to be one of the hedrons in artifact form.
If she's not alive then the quest for Ugin is probably moot so I'll hypothesize that she is. Although Sorin and Ugin living make more sense than her. What are Kor lifetimes anyway? Guess we'll find out in Return to Zendikar that is feeling more inevitable with each release - and is probably the most welcome Return set of them all, with good reason.
Why not simply print a hedron artifact that does what the sealing hedron is supposed to do? Though I suppose what you guys want is for Nahiri to create hedron tokens similar to how she created the hedrons that sealed the Eldrazi. Well, there's always a chance we'll see Nahiri, Hedron Crafter as a future PW card. I would like to note however that the sealing magic wasn't purely Nahiri's doing - Ugin provided the draconic runes that made the hedrons work. Perhaps we should be asking for an Ugin with such sealing magic instead?
I could see that. Consider Karn, though that was more erasing things than sealing them, but I could see a Colorless Ugin Planeswalker with a not-dissimilar function of being able to shut down troublesome permanents to represent sealing them.
my complaint has nothing to do with goodstuff. The other four commanders can be used for pretty much any archetype, where nahiri is exclusive to one. She is also atrocious as a voltron commander as you're locking yourself into mono white, can't win with general damage, and only has one decent ability.
The niche she fills in a lot of decks is irrelevant, because they're all the same archetype. Her + is garbage, her ult is garbage, and her only relevant ability can only be used every other of your turns.
Don't compare her to polis lady. One was designed for multiplayer and the other was designed for standard. You also don't need to build around her, as she'll still draw you cards regardless of what your deck is or does and is a 6/5 indestructible. Nahiri does none of these things.
Have you READ Daretti? You aren't going to stick him in any old Red deck and expect to get value out of him. Even if you aren't running Equipment, Nahiri still generates extra bodies for no further investment, and it's not like White has tons of creature token support or anything. You need to be running equipment to get the best value out of her, yes, but anything that can generate free extra bodies is still useful in a ton of White decks.
red guy gives card draw to a color with not a whole lot, his - trades mana rocks for better equipment tossed with his + or destroyed and isn't as restrictive as nahiri's, and his ult is relevant for any deck with artifacts that sac themselves; mindstone, baubles, o-stone, vault, ect. Some of which are red's only way to deal with certain perms any types. Every mono red deck i've ever seen fields artifacts. Not every white deck fields equipment.
As for her tokens; there are so many other sources of token generation in white that do more than a single 1/1 on your turn.
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
Daretti is far less narrow than nahiri. Daretti gives card draw, something every red deck needs. It allows you to cycle your artifacts for better artifacts, something that works very well with your +2. Upgrading your mind stone to a gilded lotus or a caged sun seems good to me. Or pitching that mind stone to get back an oblivion stone. Even if you don't use the -2, you can +2 to get his ult, allowing you to recur any sac artifacts for days and it stops players from getting rid of your stuff.
I have never seen a red deck that didn't want to draw cards and that didn't run artifacts. Even if you don't always want that draw every turn or don't have cards to pitch, he says up to 2 and you can just build toward his ult. Nahiri is far more narrow because not every white deck runs a ton of equipment. Her + in which case is just a bad token generator, her - does nothing, and her ult is far to easy to answer.
my complaint has nothing to do with goodstuff. The other four commanders can be used for pretty much any archetype, where nahiri is exclusive to one. She is also atrocious as a voltron commander as you're locking yourself into mono white, can't win with general damage, and only has one decent ability.
The niche she fills in a lot of decks is irrelevant, because they're all the same archetype. Her + is garbage, her ult is garbage, and her only relevant ability can only be used every other of your turns.
Don't compare her to polis lady. One was designed for multiplayer and the other was designed for standard. You also don't need to build around her, as she'll still draw you cards regardless of what your deck is or does and is a 6/5 indestructible. Nahiri does none of these things.
Have you READ Daretti? You aren't going to stick him in any old Red deck and expect to get value out of him. Even if you aren't running Equipment, Nahiri still generates extra bodies for no further investment, and it's not like White has tons of creature token support or anything. You need to be running equipment to get the best value out of her, yes, but anything that can generate free extra bodies is still useful in a ton of White decks.
red guy gives card draw to a color with not a whole lot, his - trades mana rocks for better equipment tossed with his + or destroyed and isn't as restrictive as nahiri's, and his ult is relevant for any deck with artifacts that sac themselves; mindstone, baubles, o-stone, vault, ect. Some of which are red's only way to deal with certain perms any types. Every mono red deck i've ever seen fields artifacts. Not every white deck fields equipment.
As for her tokens; there are so many other sources of token generation in white that do more than a single 1/1 on your turn.
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
Daretti is far less narrow than nahiri. Daretti gives card draw, something every red deck needs. It allows you to cycle your artifacts for better artifacts, something that works very well with your +2. Upgrading your mind stone to a gilded lotus or a caged sun seems good to me. Or pitching that mind stone to get back an oblivion stone. Even if you don't use the -2, you can +2 to get his ult, allowing you to recur any sac artifacts for days and it stops players from getting rid of your stuff.
I have never seen a red deck that didn't want to draw cards and that didn't run artifacts. Even if you don't always want that draw every turn or don't have cards to pitch, he says up to 2 and you can just build toward his ult. Nahiri is far more narrow because not every white deck runs a ton of equipment. Her + in which case is just a bad token generator, her - does nothing, and her ult is far to easy to answer.
See, you're still effectively saying Nahiri is bad for the same reasons Daretti is good. You're talking about building up to Daretti's ultimate for recurring sacrificable artifacts, and cycling through worse artifacts for better ones, but that's a very specific deck type. Even if most Red decks run artifacts, they don't necessarily run enough to get real value on a consistent basis out of the Trash for Treasure ability. Now, Daretti lets you dig into your deck, yes, but Red has better ways of drawing cards than that if that's really what you're after.
Even if Nahiri's + is "just a bad token generator", it still builds toward her ult, and that piece of equipment, while answerable, is still a.) Indestructible, so not as easy to answer as you might think, b.) Has a 0 equip cost, meaning it can be used immediately, and c.) is giving an effective ten points of power to whatever you stick it on. And how convenient that even if you have no other creatures, she just happens to make her own. As for her -2, it does something very relevant. You don't need to run an equipment-focused deck to run equipment. Even if not every White deck runs them, there are several different archetypes other than Voltron that will utilize equipment in some form or another. Hell, as I mentioned before, Lightning Greaves pops up in the vast majority of EDH decks I come across, even ones that aren't particularly focused on their General, and while not as common as the Greaves, many decks of many colors and strategies run a Sword or two. These things draw hate for obvious reasons, and I don't think you realize how powerful recurring a trashed Greaves or Sword is.
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
I don't quite get why you give Nahiri credit for getting back Swords and Greaves but not Daretti. Granted Nahiri does it without the cost of one of your mana rocks or utility-artifacts but she cannot draw back utility-facts like Eye of Doom or Perilous Vault.
The new gas-pump artifact might actually be a quite good run in red decks utilizing Daretti. It keeps making Daretti relevant on his +2 and Daretti can circumvent the high cost by ditching a mana rock if needed. Granted 1 in the 99.
Can we at least agree that fiddling with equipment is more narrow than dealing with artifacts in general?
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
I don't quite get why you give Nahiri credit for getting back Swords and Greaves but not Daretti. Granted Nahiri does it without the cost of one of your mana rocks or utility-artifacts but she cannot draw back utility-facts like Eye of Doom or Perilous Vault.
The new gas-pump artifact might actually be a quite good run in red decks utilizing Daretti. It keeps making Daretti relevant on his +2 and Daretti can circumvent the high cost by ditching a mana rock if needed. Granted 1 in the 99.
Can we at least agree that fiddling with equipment is more narrow than dealing with artifacts in general?
This is true, Daretti can also retrieve Swords, but will you always have an artifact you're willing to trade in for one if you aren't running an artifact focused deck? I will agree that working with equipment is a more narrow card effect than working with artifacts in general, yes, but the argument that was initially made was that Nahiri only benefits one deck archetype, while all the others are universal, which I believe is incorrect. There are several types of decks that will benefit from a token generator that doesn't require you to dump your mana into it, or the ability to recur equipment.
By contrast, there are many Red decks that, yes they run artifacts, but still won't get that much mileage out of Daretti. Yes, sometimes you will have that mindstone to trade in for that whatever better artifact is in your graveyard, but many times in a deck that is not focused around artifacts, you will not because you're running those artifacts to supplement what your deck does. You draw an occasional mana rock and maybe a utility artifact or two over the course of the game. You can't always aford to trash a mana rock because Red doesn't get a whole lot of mana acceleration either, and often your utility artifacts do such different things that as nice as having the other artifact back would be, it's not worth the loss of the first artifact. I can speak from experience on this one both from the mono-red deck I run and the ones I've encountered, but again, maybe my local meta is different from yours. As for his +2, while filtering is useful, Red's issue with card draw is that it tends to deplete its hand pretty quickly, and filtering becomes progressively less useful the fewer cards you have in your hand. There are workarounds to this, of course, and thank god they learned their lesson after Tibalt, but for the most part unless you have very specific things to pitch in mind (i.e. you have plenty of artifacts you want to pitch to use his -2) it gets a lot less useful once you're sitting at 3-4 cards in hand (Note how the ability is worded such that you can pitch UP TO two cards and draw that many such that you can still tick him up even if you have nothing you want to discard, so instead of Daretti sitting there twiddling his thumbs because you have nothing you want to pitch he can still build loyalty.)
who
So, with that in mind, explain to me again how Daretti is "universal" when there are decks that can't make full use of his abilities while Nahiri, whose +2 will literally always do SOMETHING (Net you a dude to carry your equipment at best, a meatshield at worst, and which I would also like to note, is pretty much original Elspeth's +1, so that ability that's supposedly so useless is a commonly-used +1 on a commonly-used Planeswalker already) and who can retrieve equipment, which even if not as powerful as recurring general artifacts, are still run in a lot of decks and not just equipment-focused or even Voltron decks, only fills a niche in one archetype?
To be clear here, I know Daretti is powerful, and I know that even though his abilities aren't relevant all the time doesn't mean they aren't still good, (I still think he's the most powerful of the five), my argument is rather DESPITE the fact that Daretti's abilities synergize in a way that heavily encourages a specific archetype, he'd still run him outside that archetype and get sub-optimal use of his abilities and call him good, yet he's preemptively dismissing Nahiri as useless despite her having applications outside of a strictly equipment-focused deck.
That's really my only complaint. I wish she had more interesting effects that represented her binding and hedron construction abilities. But you bring up a good point. If an older, wiser version of Nahari appears latter on with said abilities, I will have no qualms what so ever.
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Yes but the death of its major protector a woman that he hates with a passion would have been the kind of information he and and any other planeswalker entering Zendikar would want to know especially if she was so fastidious in her guardianship of the plane that she attacked Ob Nixilis within moments of his arrival. Had it been the mending killing her she would have had time to leave messages for and try and find and warn Sorin and Ugin, who Bolas would already have taken out but still no reason she would no that, that Zendikar would no longer be protected and the eldrazi jailer was dead or about to be.
I am just saying that the only thing we no for certain is that she isnt on Zendikar.
Nicol Bolas wouldn't need to worry if she's actually dead.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Maybe Nicol Bolas needed her for some reason, like to do with the Hedrons... I'm not saying it's likely, just saying it could explain where she is if she's not dead. After all, I agree with some of the other posters. Her silence wouldn't be unsettling if she was dead.
Reading that Uncharted Realm article made me sort of realize that her role isn't too deep of an importance as I thought it would be as it was Ugin's magic/runes that majorly powered the whole system... without Ugin's magicks the Hedrons are just really tough stones.
And to me that quote in Sorin's UR entry (unless given more background by Creative) is just taken way too deep by most people. It could be that he's unsettled by Nahiri's silence due to him working with her and Ugin for 40 years straight laying down the Hedron network.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
And if you're running a Red deck that runs light on artifacts? Trust me, there are a lot of them. Further, Daretti's ability is discard and draw an equal number. I can think of a few Red decks that benefit from that, but many more that don't. I can also tell you that yes, my Mono Red deck runs artifacts, but the artifacts it runs are not generally interchangeable, which is the case in many mono red decks I've seen. You usually don't want to be trading your Caged Sun out for Perilous Vault or vice versa on a whim if you aren't running an artifact focus because they do very different things. As for mana rocks, you're usually playing them because you need the mana. Now, yes, maybe you can trade a mana rock out for an O-stone occasionally, and that's good value, but if you're running a large volume of artifacts that sac themselves, chances are you're going with a more artifact-focused deck. Most of the mono-red decks I've seen aren't running enough artifacts to really get utility out of Daretti's -2 more than once in a blue moon.
As for Nahiri, I don't know about your meta, but Greaves and various Swords are pretty ubiquitous features of the vast majority of decks I've played regardless of color or function. Further, that fact that other cards can do it "better" doesn't change the fact that there would be plenty of non-equipment focused decks that would get mileage outof Nahiri's token generation anyway, and most of those still require you to commit mana to them besides.
It just doesn't make much sense to me that you find Nahiri more narrow than Daretti. And I'm not saying Daretti's bad, he's probably the strongest of the bunch, but consider: There are times when you'll use Daretti's +1 and literally do nothing other than +1 him, either because you don't have anything you want to pitch or you don't have anything you can pitch. Nahiri's +1 will always to something. Does she belong in every white deck? Probably not, but she's not as useless as you're making her out to be.
I think Perilous Vault is supposed to be one of the hedrons in artifact form.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I could see that. Consider Karn, though that was more erasing things than sealing them, but I could see a Colorless Ugin Planeswalker with a not-dissimilar function of being able to shut down troublesome permanents to represent sealing them.
Daretti is far less narrow than nahiri. Daretti gives card draw, something every red deck needs. It allows you to cycle your artifacts for better artifacts, something that works very well with your +2. Upgrading your mind stone to a gilded lotus or a caged sun seems good to me. Or pitching that mind stone to get back an oblivion stone. Even if you don't use the -2, you can +2 to get his ult, allowing you to recur any sac artifacts for days and it stops players from getting rid of your stuff.
I have never seen a red deck that didn't want to draw cards and that didn't run artifacts. Even if you don't always want that draw every turn or don't have cards to pitch, he says up to 2 and you can just build toward his ult. Nahiri is far more narrow because not every white deck runs a ton of equipment. Her + in which case is just a bad token generator, her - does nothing, and her ult is far to easy to answer.
WWWAvacyn: We Can Make The World StopWWW
See, you're still effectively saying Nahiri is bad for the same reasons Daretti is good. You're talking about building up to Daretti's ultimate for recurring sacrificable artifacts, and cycling through worse artifacts for better ones, but that's a very specific deck type. Even if most Red decks run artifacts, they don't necessarily run enough to get real value on a consistent basis out of the Trash for Treasure ability. Now, Daretti lets you dig into your deck, yes, but Red has better ways of drawing cards than that if that's really what you're after.
Even if Nahiri's + is "just a bad token generator", it still builds toward her ult, and that piece of equipment, while answerable, is still a.) Indestructible, so not as easy to answer as you might think, b.) Has a 0 equip cost, meaning it can be used immediately, and c.) is giving an effective ten points of power to whatever you stick it on. And how convenient that even if you have no other creatures, she just happens to make her own. As for her -2, it does something very relevant. You don't need to run an equipment-focused deck to run equipment. Even if not every White deck runs them, there are several different archetypes other than Voltron that will utilize equipment in some form or another. Hell, as I mentioned before, Lightning Greaves pops up in the vast majority of EDH decks I come across, even ones that aren't particularly focused on their General, and while not as common as the Greaves, many decks of many colors and strategies run a Sword or two. These things draw hate for obvious reasons, and I don't think you realize how powerful recurring a trashed Greaves or Sword is.
The new gas-pump artifact might actually be a quite good run in red decks utilizing Daretti. It keeps making Daretti relevant on his +2 and Daretti can circumvent the high cost by ditching a mana rock if needed. Granted 1 in the 99.
Can we at least agree that fiddling with equipment is more narrow than dealing with artifacts in general?
This is true, Daretti can also retrieve Swords, but will you always have an artifact you're willing to trade in for one if you aren't running an artifact focused deck? I will agree that working with equipment is a more narrow card effect than working with artifacts in general, yes, but the argument that was initially made was that Nahiri only benefits one deck archetype, while all the others are universal, which I believe is incorrect. There are several types of decks that will benefit from a token generator that doesn't require you to dump your mana into it, or the ability to recur equipment.
By contrast, there are many Red decks that, yes they run artifacts, but still won't get that much mileage out of Daretti. Yes, sometimes you will have that mindstone to trade in for that whatever better artifact is in your graveyard, but many times in a deck that is not focused around artifacts, you will not because you're running those artifacts to supplement what your deck does. You draw an occasional mana rock and maybe a utility artifact or two over the course of the game. You can't always aford to trash a mana rock because Red doesn't get a whole lot of mana acceleration either, and often your utility artifacts do such different things that as nice as having the other artifact back would be, it's not worth the loss of the first artifact. I can speak from experience on this one both from the mono-red deck I run and the ones I've encountered, but again, maybe my local meta is different from yours. As for his +2, while filtering is useful, Red's issue with card draw is that it tends to deplete its hand pretty quickly, and filtering becomes progressively less useful the fewer cards you have in your hand. There are workarounds to this, of course, and thank god they learned their lesson after Tibalt, but for the most part unless you have very specific things to pitch in mind (i.e. you have plenty of artifacts you want to pitch to use his -2) it gets a lot less useful once you're sitting at 3-4 cards in hand (Note how the ability is worded such that you can pitch UP TO two cards and draw that many such that you can still tick him up even if you have nothing you want to discard, so instead of Daretti sitting there twiddling his thumbs because you have nothing you want to pitch he can still build loyalty.)
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So, with that in mind, explain to me again how Daretti is "universal" when there are decks that can't make full use of his abilities while Nahiri, whose +2 will literally always do SOMETHING (Net you a dude to carry your equipment at best, a meatshield at worst, and which I would also like to note, is pretty much original Elspeth's +1, so that ability that's supposedly so useless is a commonly-used +1 on a commonly-used Planeswalker already) and who can retrieve equipment, which even if not as powerful as recurring general artifacts, are still run in a lot of decks and not just equipment-focused or even Voltron decks, only fills a niche in one archetype?
To be clear here, I know Daretti is powerful, and I know that even though his abilities aren't relevant all the time doesn't mean they aren't still good, (I still think he's the most powerful of the five), my argument is rather DESPITE the fact that Daretti's abilities synergize in a way that heavily encourages a specific archetype, he'd still run him outside that archetype and get sub-optimal use of his abilities and call him good, yet he's preemptively dismissing Nahiri as useless despite her having applications outside of a strictly equipment-focused deck.
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