Well, there should be some soldier and spirit token generators since he mentions double sided soldier/spirit tokens in the article atleast.
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On a related topic, does anyone actually read the adverts which stop us from getting double sided tokens in regular boosters?
I have a booster pack, you don't need to advertise the game to me???
Yeah, I don't believe the whole "we HAVE to have ads on the back of the tokens" line.
They don't have ads on the back of tokens, they have tokens on the back of the ads. The ad cards only exist because Marketing wants to put ads in the packs. If you're right that these ads are totally ineffective and should be discontinued (because clearly we as players have a much better idea of WotC's business than WotC itself), then you get no tokens at all. They exist because they are ads, and arguing for the ads to be abolished is tantamount to arguing for the tokens to be abolished with them.
On a related topic, does anyone actually read the adverts which stop us from getting double sided tokens in regular boosters?
I have a booster pack, you don't need to advertise the game to me???
Yeah, I don't believe the whole "we HAVE to have ads on the back of the tokens" line.
They don't have ads on the back of tokens, they have tokens on the back of the ads. The ad cards only exist because Marketing wants to put ads in the packs. If you're right that these ads are totally ineffective and should be discontinued (because clearly we as players have a much better idea of WotC's business than WotC itself), then you get no tokens at all. They exist because they are ads, and arguing for the ads to be abolished is tantamount to arguing for the tokens to be abolished with them.
Replace every throw-away, paper-wasting ad card (you don't even get a guaranteed token with your ad, that's lame) and in their place, put tokens with regular Magic backs and a chance for the token to be foil (that doesn't screw take the slot away from your foil common/uncommon/rare). Guarantee that would sell more packs than those stupid ad cards that get instantly chucked in the trash by every player I've ever seen open packs, veteran and beginner alike.
But this discussion is getting off-topic (not that there is much to discuss in this thread which will probably be locked soon anyway).
On a related topic, does anyone actually read the adverts which stop us from getting double sided tokens in regular boosters?
I have a booster pack, you don't need to advertise the game to me???
Yeah, I don't believe the whole "we HAVE to have ads on the back of the tokens" line.
They don't have ads on the back of tokens, they have tokens on the back of the ads. The ad cards only exist because Marketing wants to put ads in the packs. If you're right that these ads are totally ineffective and should be discontinued (because clearly we as players have a much better idea of WotC's business than WotC itself), then you get no tokens at all. They exist because they are ads, and arguing for the ads to be abolished is tantamount to arguing for the tokens to be abolished with them.
Replace every throw-away, paper-wasting ad card (you don't even get a guaranteed token with your ad, that's lame) and in their place, put tokens with regular Magic backs and a chance for the token to be foil (that doesn't screw take the slot away from your foil common/uncommon/rare). Guarantee that would sell more packs than those stupid ad cards that get instantly chucked in the trash by every player I've ever seen open packs, veteran and beginner alike.
But this discussion is getting off-topic (not that there is much to discuss in this thread which will probably be locked soon anyway).
You're ignoring the point. They don't have an extra card to do whatever they like with and somehow chose to make it something that apparently offends you on a personal level. They have a budget for advertising and chose to use it in this way. Replacing the ad cards with a regular Magic card (token or not) would cost more money even before taking into account the loss in revenue from the advertising (which is zero, right, because if you personally haven't seen anyone read those ads then clearly nobody in the entire world has ever done so. Your anecdotal evidence is obviously better than WotC's market data) and I guarantee (because guarantees from total outsiders with no real data to back up their claims are the gold standard in this business) that the increase in sales of booster packs would be negligible because while tokens are nifty they're hardly big money and although the number of tokens you would open would be higher under your proposal, the total supply of tokens would be increased by the same factor (by definition) so the market would remain unchanged. It's possible that WotC could make more money by changing they way they distribute tokens and ad cards, but it's not because they failed to consider the brilliant plan that you in your ignorance of all relevant factors happened upon. I really don't understand how so many people are absolutely convinced that they somehow know more about WotC's business than WotC themselves.
The first tokens printed in unglued had regular magic backs not ads so they in fact do not exist because of wizards desire to put ads in the packs. They exist because the player base showed interest in the tokens. That's why tokens in dual decks have regular magic backs not ads.
The first tokens printed in unglued had regular magic backs not ads so they in fact do not exist because of wizards desire to put ads in the packs. They exist because the player base showed interest in the tokens. That's why tokens in dual decks have regular magic backs not ads.
Also, the tokens of today are derived from the pro player cards, because people were using those as tokens. Not sure how advertizements snuck in but I think everyone would prefer the double ad cards to instead be token/ad cards. Double sided tokens should probably be kept as something special as they have been thus far.
On a related topic, does anyone actually read the adverts which stop us from getting double sided tokens in regular boosters?
I have a booster pack, you don't need to advertise the game to me???
Yeah, I don't believe the whole "we HAVE to have ads on the back of the tokens" line.
They don't have ads on the back of tokens, they have tokens on the back of the ads. The ad cards only exist because Marketing wants to put ads in the packs. If you're right that these ads are totally ineffective and should be discontinued (because clearly we as players have a much better idea of WotC's business than WotC itself), then you get no tokens at all. They exist because they are ads, and arguing for the ads to be abolished is tantamount to arguing for the tokens to be abolished with them.
Replace every throw-away, paper-wasting ad card (you don't even get a guaranteed token with your ad, that's lame) and in their place, put tokens with regular Magic backs and a chance for the token to be foil (that doesn't screw take the slot away from your foil common/uncommon/rare). Guarantee that would sell more packs than those stupid ad cards that get instantly chucked in the trash by every player I've ever seen open packs, veteran and beginner alike.
But this discussion is getting off-topic (not that there is much to discuss in this thread which will probably be locked soon anyway).
You're ignoring the point. They don't have an extra card to do whatever they like with and somehow chose to make it something that apparently offends you on a personal level. They have a budget for advertising and chose to use it in this way. Replacing the ad cards with a regular Magic card (token or not) would cost more money even before taking into account the loss in revenue from the advertising (which is zero, right, because if you personally haven't seen anyone read those ads then clearly nobody in the entire world has ever done so. Your anecdotal evidence is obviously better than WotC's market data) and I guarantee (because guarantees from total outsiders with no real data to back up their claims are the gold standard in this business) that the increase in sales of booster packs would be negligible because while tokens are nifty they're hardly big money and although the number of tokens you would open would be higher under your proposal, the total supply of tokens would be increased by the same factor (by definition) so the market would remain unchanged. It's possible that WotC could make more money by changing they way they distribute tokens and ad cards, but it's not because they failed to consider the brilliant plan that you in your ignorance of all relevant factors happened upon. I really don't understand how so many people are absolutely convinced that they somehow know more about WotC's business than WotC themselves.
Actually from a market based stand point there argument is that the advertising is irrelevant since they are advertising to a sold market, in other words they are preaching to the choir. The first person actually asked if anyone had ever read or scene anyone read them he was actually asking for evidence that they have any effect.
The next person suggest that guaranteed tokens and the prospect of foil tokens would be more likely to cause the enfranchised player base to buy more packs then the add cards would. Since both are marketing to the enfranchised player ie the one who has already purchased a pack there is a logic in assuming that giving them something that they want and can use would increase profit especially for players who love foils. I could easily see the value of foiled planswalker emblems being higher given peoples love of foiling out there decks. Since his idea has never been tried there is no market data on there for we cant say if his plan would generate more revenue then add cards.
I am not actually sure how they would collect accurate data on the add cards ability to sell magic. How can you be sure once you introduce the add card that any market spike is not the result of the set itself being well received and not the add card or even that the possibility of the tokens on the add cards hasn't caused more enfranchised players to purchase more packs to get tokens for there older token generators? I know that is one of the reason people where purchasing unglued along with the pretty full art land.
Personally I am glad they are putting out tokens for commander 2014 it shows a sign that they are more willing to put out tokens and makes me hope that the black has a sengir autocrat just so I can finally have some serf tokens.
Personally i would prefer a token per pack, but I am one of the few who have uses for the ad card. I have a 1 1/2 year old and 3 year old...they love my cards...now i have something to feed them other than my zendikar full-art lands (still a bit upset about that one).
As someone that initiate in Magic by himself with the rules insert in the Deckbuid toolbox, I always read the ad in the first 2-3 months, that help me with a idea about how I could search for magic (official sites like the gatherer and PW points)
Also, as Magic is not that mainstream, I see a lot of people buying booster out of curiosity or helping friends to opens them. So I think the ad is important
I somehow find it tragic when an attacking Traveling Philosopher gets blocked by another Traveling Philosopher, which normally results in two dead philosophers. Shouldn't they just sit aside and start discussing?
"This is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I'm quite dizzy with anticipation . . . Or is it the wind? There really is a lot of that now, isn't there? And wow! Hey! What's this thing suddenly coming toward me very fast? Very, very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide-sounding name like . . . ow . . . ound . . . round . . . ground! That's it! That's a good name- ground! I wonder if it will be friends with me? Hello Ground!"
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the Sprouting Phytohydra as it fell was Oh no, not again.
Actually from a market based stand point there argument is that the advertising is irrelevant since they are advertising to a sold market, in other words they are preaching to the choir. The first person actually asked if anyone had ever read or scene anyone read them he was actually asking for evidence that they have any effect.
Well I'm glad you read it with a more open mind than I did, but I think the answer to this is pretty simple for anyone who actually has read the ads (yes, we do exist. Anecdotal data proves their effectiveness conclusively! :P). They don't advertise the product you've already bought, they advertise upcoming sets or peripheral products like Duels of the Planeswalkers. Anyway, there's a reason I responded to ShadowFenril and not to ChrisBlitz because there's a difference between asking a legitimate question and assuming you already have the answer.
The next person suggest that guaranteed tokens and the prospect of foil tokens would be more likely to cause the enfranchised player base to buy more packs then the add cards would. Since both are marketing to the enfranchised player ie the one who has already purchased a pack there is a logic in assuming that giving them something that they want and can use would increase profit especially for players who love foils. I could easily see the value of foiled planswalker emblems being higher given peoples love of foiling out there decks. Since his idea has never been tried there is no market data on there for we cant say if his plan would generate more revenue then add cards.
No, but we can identify some incorrect assumptions he has made in proposing it, chiefly the purpose of the ad cards and the relative costs of printing them compared to regular cards. I also totally reject the assumption that anyone would increase their purchases of booster packs on the weight of tokens alone. That's not why people buy packs. It's true that we have no data on this specific scenario but ShadowFenril seems perfectly happy to make sweeping assumptions about the effectiveness of the current set up based on no more data than his own anecdotes. If it didn't work, WotC would not still be doing it 8 years in. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but it does mean we can reject the cocky "well if I've never read an ad then obviously nobody has" attitude.
I am not actually sure how they would collect accurate data on the add cards ability to sell magic. How can you be sure once you introduce the add card that any market spike is not the result of the set itself being well received and not the add card or even that the possibility of the tokens on the add cards hasn't caused more enfranchised players to purchase more packs to get tokens for there older token generators? I know that is one of the reason people where purchasing unglued along with the pretty full art land.
The reason I respond to these kinds of arguments is they always start with the absolutely absurd assumption that WotC couldn't possibly know anything about their own business. They've been making Magic for over 20 years but no, randoms on the internet clearly know infinitely more about the effectiveness of WotC's current and hypothetical marketing techniques. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and there is no possible way to determine whether ad cards are effective. So why is your baseless assumption better than WotC's? It's necessarily baseless, because there's no way to tell one way or the other, right? Now personally, I don't agree that it's impossible to know one way or the other. It's not going to be an exact science but WotC is not just looking at a single sales figure number and trying to figure out every factor that went into it. Contrary to popular assumption, WotC does do market research. Why do people imagine that glancing around one's LGS and noting whether or not people are reading ad cards is vastly more data that WotC could even hope to gather? Do you imagine that they can't visit an LGS and glance around themselves? Do you imagine that they don't have more thorough investigation techniques at their disposal? Because they definitely do! That's why I reject these smug proposals that assume WotC knows less about their own business than some random outsider.
Personally I am glad they are putting out tokens for commander 2014 it shows a sign that they are more willing to put out tokens and makes me hope that the black has a sengir autocrat just so I can finally have some serf tokens.
Of course, it's entirely possible that this is meant as a kind of testing the waters to see if the demand for tokens is great enough to have an impact on sales. In which case we might see them rethinking how ad cards are done. I just wanted to make the point that I believe they do think about it; the current situation did not come about because someone in Marketing decided to do it 8 years ago and then everyone at Hasbro covered their eyes to a truth so obvious any outsider can instantly see it. They would be constantly asking themselves if this is an efficient use of their money and if there was any reason to believe that it wasn't you can be sure we wouldn't still have ad cards after all these years.
Just not putting an "extra card" in the pack to save money is a great point.
That they have tokens on them 50% of the time and are not always double sided suggests to me that they do belive that tokens have an impact on the saleability of the packs though.
So what would generate the most revenue:
1) 100% ads.
2) 75% ads, 25% tokens (current situation).
3) 100% tokens.
4) One less "card".
5) Extra common or something else.
Personally I think that the act of getting the booster exposes you to what kind of other products are sold, so the ads are a waste of time.
The current situation is 100% ads. Every ad card has an ad on at least one side. Some of them have tokens on the other side, some have "tips" which these days are very short snippets about the game or characters, and some have an additional ad. But there are no double-sided tokens or double-sided tips, so there are 100% ads. Even under your somewhat odd calculation it's more like 55% or 60%; you would know if you bothered to read them that the tips are not ads.
As I said above, if there was any reason to believe that the ad cards were costing more than they were generating then they would not still be doing them. It doesn't matter what you personally think. You need to understand that WotC has a better understanding of their sales and market research than you do. How people can assume the opposite is beyond me.
Also, the tokens of today are derived from the pro player cards, because people were using those as tokens.
Wait... people were using those things for something other than kitty litter?
My eldest son was about a year old when those things started appearing, and I used to give them to him to chew on (better that than my money cards, right?).
I know MaRo's been asked about the Ad cards and he's pretty much said that they do make the cost back
Not sure if that's correct, he has stated repeatedly that they are paid for out of the marketing budget. And he has repeatedly stated that they are important for there target audience i.e. "newer players who read the rules cards, need more awareness of other products"
I'm not sure he ever stated that they are quantifiably generating income/income share.
I probably stated that badly, what I essentially meant was they generate value out of those cards and the value is worth keeping them in there, whether it's monetary value or increased web traffic or whatever it's not hurting them.
I probably stated that badly, what I essentially meant was they generate value out of those cards and the value is worth keeping them in there, whether it's monetary value or increased web traffic or whatever it's not hurting them.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I bet even the anti-ad poster don't realize how much they are unconsciously influenced by those ad cards even if all there seeing is occasional glimpses as they lie discarded on the play table.
Most people don't stop on think how much our sub-conscious reacts to ever-present branding.
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http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/love-letter-vorthos-2014-10-24
The authors mention spoiling tokens today. Here's their quote:
"We'll be showing off some of the tokens this week (tomorrow!), and the rest next week after the full set is revealed."
Is there some event or something today where we will be getting spoilers?
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Yeah, I don't believe the whole "we HAVE to have ads on the back of the tokens" line.
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They don't have ads on the back of tokens, they have tokens on the back of the ads. The ad cards only exist because Marketing wants to put ads in the packs. If you're right that these ads are totally ineffective and should be discontinued (because clearly we as players have a much better idea of WotC's business than WotC itself), then you get no tokens at all. They exist because they are ads, and arguing for the ads to be abolished is tantamount to arguing for the tokens to be abolished with them.
Replace every throw-away, paper-wasting ad card (you don't even get a guaranteed token with your ad, that's lame) and in their place, put tokens with regular Magic backs and a chance for the token to be foil (that doesn't screw take the slot away from your foil common/uncommon/rare). Guarantee that would sell more packs than those stupid ad cards that get instantly chucked in the trash by every player I've ever seen open packs, veteran and beginner alike.
But this discussion is getting off-topic (not that there is much to discuss in this thread which will probably be locked soon anyway).
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You're ignoring the point. They don't have an extra card to do whatever they like with and somehow chose to make it something that apparently offends you on a personal level. They have a budget for advertising and chose to use it in this way. Replacing the ad cards with a regular Magic card (token or not) would cost more money even before taking into account the loss in revenue from the advertising (which is zero, right, because if you personally haven't seen anyone read those ads then clearly nobody in the entire world has ever done so. Your anecdotal evidence is obviously better than WotC's market data) and I guarantee (because guarantees from total outsiders with no real data to back up their claims are the gold standard in this business) that the increase in sales of booster packs would be negligible because while tokens are nifty they're hardly big money and although the number of tokens you would open would be higher under your proposal, the total supply of tokens would be increased by the same factor (by definition) so the market would remain unchanged. It's possible that WotC could make more money by changing they way they distribute tokens and ad cards, but it's not because they failed to consider the brilliant plan that you in your ignorance of all relevant factors happened upon. I really don't understand how so many people are absolutely convinced that they somehow know more about WotC's business than WotC themselves.
Also, the tokens of today are derived from the pro player cards, because people were using those as tokens. Not sure how advertizements snuck in but I think everyone would prefer the double ad cards to instead be token/ad cards. Double sided tokens should probably be kept as something special as they have been thus far.
Actually from a market based stand point there argument is that the advertising is irrelevant since they are advertising to a sold market, in other words they are preaching to the choir. The first person actually asked if anyone had ever read or scene anyone read them he was actually asking for evidence that they have any effect.
The next person suggest that guaranteed tokens and the prospect of foil tokens would be more likely to cause the enfranchised player base to buy more packs then the add cards would. Since both are marketing to the enfranchised player ie the one who has already purchased a pack there is a logic in assuming that giving them something that they want and can use would increase profit especially for players who love foils. I could easily see the value of foiled planswalker emblems being higher given peoples love of foiling out there decks. Since his idea has never been tried there is no market data on there for we cant say if his plan would generate more revenue then add cards.
I am not actually sure how they would collect accurate data on the add cards ability to sell magic. How can you be sure once you introduce the add card that any market spike is not the result of the set itself being well received and not the add card or even that the possibility of the tokens on the add cards hasn't caused more enfranchised players to purchase more packs to get tokens for there older token generators? I know that is one of the reason people where purchasing unglued along with the pretty full art land.
Personally I am glad they are putting out tokens for commander 2014 it shows a sign that they are more willing to put out tokens and makes me hope that the black has a sengir autocrat just so I can finally have some serf tokens.
Also, as Magic is not that mainstream, I see a lot of people buying booster out of curiosity or helping friends to opens them. So I think the ad is important
Well I'm glad you read it with a more open mind than I did, but I think the answer to this is pretty simple for anyone who actually has read the ads (yes, we do exist. Anecdotal data proves their effectiveness conclusively! :P). They don't advertise the product you've already bought, they advertise upcoming sets or peripheral products like Duels of the Planeswalkers. Anyway, there's a reason I responded to ShadowFenril and not to ChrisBlitz because there's a difference between asking a legitimate question and assuming you already have the answer.
No, but we can identify some incorrect assumptions he has made in proposing it, chiefly the purpose of the ad cards and the relative costs of printing them compared to regular cards. I also totally reject the assumption that anyone would increase their purchases of booster packs on the weight of tokens alone. That's not why people buy packs. It's true that we have no data on this specific scenario but ShadowFenril seems perfectly happy to make sweeping assumptions about the effectiveness of the current set up based on no more data than his own anecdotes. If it didn't work, WotC would not still be doing it 8 years in. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but it does mean we can reject the cocky "well if I've never read an ad then obviously nobody has" attitude.
The reason I respond to these kinds of arguments is they always start with the absolutely absurd assumption that WotC couldn't possibly know anything about their own business. They've been making Magic for over 20 years but no, randoms on the internet clearly know infinitely more about the effectiveness of WotC's current and hypothetical marketing techniques. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and there is no possible way to determine whether ad cards are effective. So why is your baseless assumption better than WotC's? It's necessarily baseless, because there's no way to tell one way or the other, right? Now personally, I don't agree that it's impossible to know one way or the other. It's not going to be an exact science but WotC is not just looking at a single sales figure number and trying to figure out every factor that went into it. Contrary to popular assumption, WotC does do market research. Why do people imagine that glancing around one's LGS and noting whether or not people are reading ad cards is vastly more data that WotC could even hope to gather? Do you imagine that they can't visit an LGS and glance around themselves? Do you imagine that they don't have more thorough investigation techniques at their disposal? Because they definitely do! That's why I reject these smug proposals that assume WotC knows less about their own business than some random outsider.
Of course, it's entirely possible that this is meant as a kind of testing the waters to see if the demand for tokens is great enough to have an impact on sales. In which case we might see them rethinking how ad cards are done. I just wanted to make the point that I believe they do think about it; the current situation did not come about because someone in Marketing decided to do it 8 years ago and then everyone at Hasbro covered their eyes to a truth so obvious any outsider can instantly see it. They would be constantly asking themselves if this is an efficient use of their money and if there was any reason to believe that it wasn't you can be sure we wouldn't still have ad cards after all these years.
The current situation is 100% ads. Every ad card has an ad on at least one side. Some of them have tokens on the other side, some have "tips" which these days are very short snippets about the game or characters, and some have an additional ad. But there are no double-sided tokens or double-sided tips, so there are 100% ads. Even under your somewhat odd calculation it's more like 55% or 60%; you would know if you bothered to read them that the tips are not ads.
As I said above, if there was any reason to believe that the ad cards were costing more than they were generating then they would not still be doing them. It doesn't matter what you personally think. You need to understand that WotC has a better understanding of their sales and market research than you do. How people can assume the opposite is beyond me.
Wait... people were using those things for something other than kitty litter?
My eldest son was about a year old when those things started appearing, and I used to give them to him to chew on (better that than my money cards, right?).
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If they do that a tokens are replacing cards then foil tokens should be a possibility
That kind of messes up limited...
Not sure if that's correct, he has stated repeatedly that they are paid for out of the marketing budget. And he has repeatedly stated that they are important for there target audience i.e. "newer players who read the rules cards, need more awareness of other products"
I'm not sure he ever stated that they are quantifiably generating income/income share.
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Oh yeah, absolutely. I bet even the anti-ad poster don't realize how much they are unconsciously influenced by those ad cards even if all there seeing is occasional glimpses as they lie discarded on the play table.
Most people don't stop on think how much our sub-conscious reacts to ever-present branding.