Ugin could have been killed in between 450(When bolas was "defeated" in Mandara) - 4000(roughly the time the eldrazi where trapped in Zendikar) years ago... there is alot of room for Ugin,...
I kind of hate MTG storyline (its soo quickly) if i was in the one responsable to it i would have done it spawn for more than 20.000 year ( Maybe 200.000 years or more )
Why would creative want to leave such wide holes in the story timeline with no substance to fill? Seems pointless.
I mean they could place some storys like the Kamigawa one some thing like 1000 before the Legends 2 cycle instead of +- 400 ( soo you could later make some other story for the myojin of night reach)
Also the fact that the Elder Dragon wars took place in like 25.000 years ago... ( I know this is alot, but kind of make the whole dragons being their descendents really knid of forced ( I know we don't really know if only 5 elder dragons survived , and if they were the only survivors then we have to think that they have to go from plane to plane procreating , and that they are all relatives ( brothers ( one Sister) , one cousing ))
25.000 is not alot of time to create the dragon kind in all the planes. I could acept if they said that 25.000 is in fact the age of Dominaria ( in currently continuit, and possible the only that will be; dominaria is younger than bolas that has +- 25000 years old)
Just to add some more wood to the fire...
People here said that the body is what most resembles Bolas... because is a very unique tipe of body... no other dragon has it. Except, it's not! Please look at Balefire Dragon and Moonveil Dragon for example.
You see the problem with that statement is because your being logical. You have to approach it like the Chewbacca defence quote. That way everyone understands. The question isn't why do they look similar but why are we talking about this well before the release of the first set? That's like asking why is Ajani on a destroyed building in BNG art long before Theros was even out yet. It doesn't make sense to question it.
I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Ugin. Ugin is an elder Dragon from the plane Dominaria. But Ugin lives on the plane Tarkir. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would an elder dragon, an ancient intelligent being, want to live on Tarkir, with a bunch of crazy stupid mongols? That does not make sense!
The Elder Dragons are from Dominia, not Dominaria. Dominia is the name of the multiverse
I just made that mistake not long ago in this thread! lol
Does Ugin have feet? I think he should but I cant tell from the art
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I am not saying anything for now. Unless Wizards intend to make a retcon, only five Elders survived from the race, and only one lived to these days.
Only 5 were mentioned, and a big fat liar said he is the only one left.
Or we can say that Bolas is lying, and in that case the road is wide open to Wizards' retcons
But it wouldn't be a retcon if Bolas was lying.
Look, the problem is that Magic's "storyline experts" far too often take information said by story characters or non-omniscient narrators as the ultimate truth. Sometimes they even take the fact soemthing was not mentioned as undeniable proof that it doesn't exist or happened, despite it never being stated outright. This is happening all the time in the storyline corner.
I will try not to be offended by the quotation marks...
Flisch, the problem you outlined has a simple reason. Like I said - either we respect some sources as canon, and, yes, the truth, or really - anything can happen. The problem is that we were used to have a cohesive storyline, when the authors themselves respected the what was written before as the objective truth - without any retcons, these were applied only in extreme cases (Karona on Phyrexia). This has gone through the chimney. And yeah, there were storyline experts that knew the whole books and sources and could have quoted them from mind.
Now every attempt for reasoning based on known sources has to face an army of "nay, anything can happen, etc..." sayers. It is hard to argue with people who come to discuss uninformed, armed practically only by this phrase, dismissing anything you quote from the sources as subjective?
Of course For you You haven't read "Planeswalker" and "Time Streams" in 2000 to learn about Xantcha and Karn. You probably haven't been around in 2003-2004 for the story of the first Mirrodin. Or were you? If not, I can understand everything is fine and dandy for you with what they served you in Scars.
Ugin short story, I had never read this and its actually really cool imo!
Ugin is pretty BA here. "You stand before me? BURNINATE!!"
Well, look when it was written. It was just an article trying to reference a couple of Future Sight cards. Without an idea who and what Ugin will eventually be.
Look, pal, there are two ways how to play the game. Either we will respect the only available, though limited, sources, that say what I said. Five survived, one ascended, and the one said that no other survivors of the Dragon War still exist.
Or we can say that Bolas is lying, and in that case the road is wide open to Wizards' retcons, like "oh hey, our another cousin Ugin was hiding in the closet all the time", and pretty much anything can happen, like it happened with Mirrodin. In that case I refuse to discuss the subject, because then really "anything may be true" and we are back to the reason why my interest in discussing lore dropped.
Wait, so, you're saying that the only way you'll discuss the lore you're so knowledgeable about is if everyone agrees to completely dismiss one of the relevant character's most defining character traits?
Way to twist my words, right? But it serves me right, I had myself put an emphasis on "Bolas said..."
However, the info about the fate of the Elders (and the five being ONLY survivors) is not solely from Bolas's mouth. And speaking of Bolas and lying that you claim to be one of the relevant character traits...can you state an example where Bolas LIED? Not schemed (on Alara), camouflaged himself (Madara), but really lied?
To conclude the subject, because it seems it is getting more personal here than I like...
- I do not think Ugin is an Elder Dragon.
- I won't be surprised, though, if Wizards say he is one.
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I don't know much about the past Magic storyline except for the Dragon Wars and dragon related things since they are my favorite part of Magic. It's sad to me to learn that they have been so inconsistent with their stories. I agree with your sentiment that Ugin should not be an Elder Dragon, but I can see that Wizards will retcon him in somehow. What if they went back far enough in time that the Dragon Wars were still going on? I know that's over 20,000 years back, but that could be the only way to accomplish Ugin's Elder status legitimately. Ugin could also be one of the Elder Dragon's offspring who became too powerful because his spark ignited so Bolas killed him.
I think we need to come up with a clear way to distinguish between the Tarkir Dragon Wars (between the residents of Tarkir and mighty Dragons) and the Elder Dragon Wars (much older and where we got the set of 5 elder dragons as the sole surviors).
The Tarkir wars were much more recent and were plane-specfic.
The elder wars were REALLY long ago and were all across Dominia (aka the Multiverse).
Do I have that correct so far?
I feel like there is potential for confusion now as people discuss these generically as "Dragon Wars."
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Omg who cares. If wizard chose to retcon that Urza and the old walkers never existed who can stop them? They probably won't but thats not the point. The point is your arguing about a storyline for a tcg. Last I checked many games always change their stories. Womb Raider went through drastic changes since the release of the ps3. Metal Gear Solid went through extreme changes too. Heck even the Hobbit is going through some changes. Does that mean that we as consumers have the power individually to fix them? No, why? They are already written. All we can do is complain enough to wizards that they no longer pull this crap. Hell even Game of Thrones the show is different from the books. Did George Martin care? No, he ain't paid to care.
Also if we are talking travesty here, ugin being an elder dragon is a minor ret-con in comparison to many of the older changes. Gaea, Mishra, Titania and Yawgmoth used to be walkers. Used to be until pre-revisionist become revisionist. Yes, it's upseting to see stories changed but they have already written Khans's block story. You can't change it. You can only complain as they reveal it. Complaining about what could happen is like complaining about earthquakes hitting your house when one hasn't happened yet. I'm sorry for those who live in quake zones and are offended but I meant as in hasn't happened yet period.
To my knowledge ( I have been playing and following the story since 1995, and I admit I could be wrong ) Gaea, Mishra, Titania and Yawgmoth were never, at any point in any story planeswalkers. Gaea was the diety that the elves and Maro sorcerers revered on Dominaria, Mishra was simply Urza's brother who went on to begin Compleation in old Phyrexia before being killed my Urza in the Sylex blast, Titania was a Maro sorcerer on Argoth before Urza and Mishra destroyed it during the Brother's War, and Yawgmoth was simply an extremely powerful being but not remotely close to planeswalker status. Revisionist did not change these characters as far as I know.
Omg who cares. If wizard chose to retcon that Urza and the old walkers never existed who can stop them? They probably won't but thats not the point. The point is your arguing about a storyline for a tcg. Last I checked many games always change their stories. Womb Raider went through drastic changes since the release of the ps3. Metal Gear Solid went through extreme changes too. Heck even the Hobbit is going through some changes. Does that mean that we as consumers have the power individually to fix them? No, why? They are already written. All we can do is complain enough to wizards that they no longer pull this crap. Hell even Game of Thrones the show is different from the books. Did George Martin care? No, he ain't paid to care.
Also if we are talking travesty here, ugin being an elder dragon is a minor ret-con in comparison to many of the older changes. Gaea, Mishra, Titania and Yawgmoth used to be walkers. Used to be until pre-revisionist become revisionist. Yes, it's upseting to see stories changed but they have already written Khans's block story. You can't change it. You can only complain as they reveal it. Complaining about what could happen is like complaining about earthquakes hitting your house when one hasn't happened yet. I'm sorry for those who live in quake zones and are offended but I meant as in hasn't happened yet period.
Indeed, who cares? Maybe those who liked that storyline of this particular TCG, Magic: The Gathering, was not like every second other stupid videogame and/or comics universes (Marvel or DC, who cares), where characters die and are ressurected everyday. At least they still keep true to the "do not retcon death of story-important characters (Yawgmoth)" rule.
Whatever, this discussion went off the topic...
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Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I think one of the reasons why people play Magic is because of the storyline. For many of the older folks like me, we were entranced by the lore of Urza, Karn, Gerrard, etc. These characters are symbolic as to what Jace is to newer players today. The difference is that the stories of yesteryear felt solid, gripping and memorable. The old stories are what one would say, a fan's wet dream.
To many of us, these characters are Magic, and Magic are these characters. The beauty of these stories are the fact they remained untouched/untainted; they are enshrined in our memories. They make us feel vested into the game.
Retcon/changing storylines to suit a generation smells of profit-making stench. It may suit the present, but if you keep doing this, people will wonder why they even bother reading about Magic in the first place.
Imagine changing parts of the Harry Potter series as the the editorial/creative side sees fit. If you're a vested fan you will hate it.
I think one of the reasons why people play Magic is because of the storyline. For many of the older folks like me, we were entranced by the lore of Urza, Karn, Gerrard, etc. These characters are symbolic as to what Jace is to newer players today. The difference is that the stories of yesteryear felt solid, gripping and memorable. The old stories are what one would say, a fan's wet dream.
To many of us, these characters are Magic, and Magic are these characters. The beauty of these stories are the fact they remained untouched/untainted; they are enshrined in our memories. They make us feel vested into the game.
Retcon/changing storylines to suit a generation smells of profit-making stench. It may suit the present, but if you keep doing this, people will wonder why they even bother reading about Magic in the first place.
Imagine changing parts of the Harry Potter series as the the editorial/creative side sees fit. If you're a vested fan you will hate it.
Excellently said. Thank you!
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Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I think one of the reasons why people play Magic is because of the storyline. For many of the older folks like me, we were entranced by the lore of Urza, Karn, Gerrard, etc. These characters are symbolic as to what Jace is to newer players today. The difference is that the stories of yesteryear felt solid, gripping and memorable. The old stories are what one would say, a fan's wet dream.
When you say things like this, you remind me of the people who claim that new Doctor Who isn't real Doctor Who, and that if you started with the new show you aren't a real fan. I wonder if, in a few years, the 'newer players' you're talking will be able to complain about how Jace, Chandra, and Gideon's stories were solid, gripping, and memorable, and so much better than whatever the current story of the time will be, no matter what.
To many of us, these characters are Magic, and Magic are these characters. The beauty of these stories are the fact they remained untouched/untainted; they are enshrined in our memories. They make us feel vested into the game.
If they are "enshrined in your memories", why does it matter if wizards says certain aspects did or didn't happen? The stories are preserved as they were originally in the most important place of all, your heart. Or whatever sentimental tidbit floats your goat my point being that if the old stuff is so important to you it's still there and isn't going anywhere so why are you so bothered by any changes wizards might decide to make nowadays?
Retcon/changing storylines to suit a generation smells of profit-making stench. It may suit the present, but if you keep doing this, people will wonder why they even bother reading about Magic in the first place.
You know what, you're right. How dare a commercial company try to make a profit. Actually now that I'm smelling for it myself, the stench of profit-making is all over this company. It's almost like if they didn't make a profit, they'd go out of business because that's how businesses work! Never mind the fact that if people didn't like it they wouldn't buy it, wizards should only be making things that appeal to your specific demographic, and only in such a way that generates absolutely no profit. That way, when wizards goes under, nobody will have to worry about the purity of the storyline anymore cause there won't be any more new stuff to taint it!
Imagine changing parts of the Harry Potter series as the the editorial/creative side sees fit. If you're a vested fan you will hate it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Changing HP as the MtG creative side sees fit? That wouldn't make any sense because HP is completely different from MtG, and creatively the work of a single person. No-one other than JK would be able to change HP satisfyingly because nobody else is inside JK's head and knows the world and setting as well as she does. If you're saying changing HP as the HP creative side sees fit then...That's basically what happened when the books were still being written and not completed yet, right? So I really don't get what this last bit is supposed to mean.
I am not saying anything for now. Unless Wizards intend to make a retcon, only five Elders survived from the race, and only one lived to these days.
Only 5 were mentioned, and a big fat liar said he is the only one left.
Or we can say that Bolas is lying, and in that case the road is wide open to Wizards' retcons
But it wouldn't be a retcon if Bolas was lying.
Look, the problem is that Magic's "storyline experts" far too often take information said by story characters or non-omniscient narrators as the ultimate truth. Sometimes they even take the fact soemthing was not mentioned as undeniable proof that it doesn't exist or happened, despite it never being stated outright. This is happening all the time in the storyline corner.
I will try not to be offended by the quotation marks...
I am sorry if I came across as offensive, I did not mean to.
Flisch, the problem you outlined has a simple reason. Like I said - either we respect some sources as canon, and, yes, the truth, or really - anything can happen. The problem is that we were used to have a cohesive storyline, when the authors themselves respected the what was written before as the objective truth - without any retcons, these were applied only in extreme cases (Karona on Phyrexia). This has gone through the chimney. And yeah, there were storyline experts that knew the whole books and sources and could have quoted them from mind.
Now every attempt for reasoning based on known sources has to face an army of "nay, anything can happen, etc..." sayers. It is hard to argue with people who come to discuss uninformed, armed practically only by this phrase, dismissing anything you quote from the sources as subjective?
I do agree with the sentiment that "but it can be retconned" is not a valid argument and shouldn't be used to defend one's theories, but I've seen people in the storyline corner far too often take unconfirmed information as proof for/against something.
Plus the subtle tone in the storyline corner seems to be very elitist, or at least used to be (it has toned down recently) and that was a very unwelcome atmosphere for new people interested in the storyline. Not quite the subject at hand, but I believe it's somewhat related.
"Of course Smile For you Smile You haven't read "Planeswalker" and "Time Streams" in 2000 to learn about Xantcha and Karn. You probably haven't been around in 2003-2004 for the story of the first Mirrodin. Or were you? If not, I can understand everything is fine and dandy for you with what they served you in Scars."
I've been playing magic since 1996 and have read those books. Don't assume things, it makes you look like an ass.
I don't know much about the story, but from what I've learned here, could it be possible that Ugin is some kind of Bolas in disguise? In what story I've read, Bolas has the ability to sort of splice his conscience into another being, so that's possible, but seeing the "Time Walking" theme, it seems pretty likely that Ugin is Bolas from another timeline, where Bolas was killed by Tezzie on that Metal Island.
"Of course Smile For you Smile You haven't read "Planeswalker" and "Time Streams" in 2000 to learn about Xantcha and Karn. You probably haven't been around in 2003-2004 for the story of the first Mirrodin. Or were you? If not, I can understand everything is fine and dandy for you with what they served you in Scars."
I've been playing magic since 1996 and have read those books. Don't assume things, it makes you look like an ass.
I have taken this possibility into account, and that is why I said "probably" in the second sentence. For better clarity, it shall be in the first as well, yes. The "or were you" was also related to both previous sentences. But I don't wonder that you grasped this chance to take shot at me It is easy to overlook..if you want.
And if you have read all those books and still you see nothing wrong with the retcons...well, to each his/her own, and we two have nothing to talk about then.
I don't know much about the story, but from what I've learned here, could it be possible that Ugin is some kind of Bolas in disguise? In what story I've read, Bolas has the ability to sort of splice his conscience into another being, so that's possible, but seeing the "Time Walking" theme, it seems pretty likely that Ugin is Bolas from another timeline, where Bolas was killed by Tezzie on that Metal Island.
Test of Metal, where the author himself did not respect the guidelines and kind of did whatever he wanted (and was arrogant afterwards after the fan reaction), the most atrocious of what was the "clockworking", is largely ignored, even by Wizards. Such mess it is.
"Of course Smile For you Smile You haven't read "Planeswalker" and "Time Streams" in 2000 to learn about Xantcha and Karn. You probably haven't been around in 2003-2004 for the story of the first Mirrodin. Or were you? If not, I can understand everything is fine and dandy for you with what they served you in Scars."
I've been playing magic since 1996 and have read those books. Don't assume things, it makes you look like an ass.
I have taken this possibility into account, and that is why I said "probably" in the second sentence. For better clarity, it shall be in the first as well, yes. The "or were you" was also related to both previous sentences. But I don't wonder that you grasped this chance to take shot at me It is easy to overlook..if you want.
And if you have read all those books and still you see nothing wrong with the retcons...well, to each his/her own, and we two have nothing to talk about then.
I don't know much about the story, but from what I've learned here, could it be possible that Ugin is some kind of Bolas in disguise? In what story I've read, Bolas has the ability to sort of splice his conscience into another being, so that's possible, but seeing the "Time Walking" theme, it seems pretty likely that Ugin is Bolas from another timeline, where Bolas was killed by Tezzie on that Metal Island.
Test of Metal, where the author himself did not respect the guidelines and kind of did whatever he wanted (and was arrogant afterwards after the fan reaction), the most atrocious of what was the "clockworking", is largely ignored, even by Wizards. Such mess it is.
Guys, Ugin's a time-shifted Nicol Bolas. Of course there'd be similarities between the two.
I think I am done here for good I have only one nerves.
Retcons are fine if they bring about a more engaging story, or if it is a more logical line of progression. Anyways, they happened, so you have to get used to it. As is, Ugin is most likely an Elder Dragon, unless Spirit Dragons just so happen to look very similar to Nicol. Plus we know he has lived for at LEAST 7 millenia which places him in the Sorin/Karn level of age making him an Oldwalker at the bare minimum. That is practically all we have to go on. He COULD be an Elder Dragon, because his character concept wasn't created back when they wrote those stories, and back then Dragonkind could have easily not known of the existence of Spirit Dragons or what have you. There is more arguments you can make for his potential to be one than you can to refute the claim.
Just a little bit of info and confirming some basic points in todays Uncharted Realms:
But the Lithomancer's whereabouts are unknown, and Sorin has not encountered Ugin for over a thousand years. In an attempt to track down Ugin, Sorin has traveled to Tarkir, where the spirit dragon formed an important part of the planar ecosystem.
Fate will not be kind to Sorin's quest. Although Ugin was native to Tarkir and a source of powerful magic on the plane, the dragon was killed long ago. It was none other than Nicol Bolas who defeated Ugin, leaving him to die in an icy chasm. With Ugin dead and the Lithomancer still missing, Sorin may not have a chance to trap the Eldrazi again.
No, Bolas wasn't lying, he left Ugin for dead. Yes, Ugin is native to Tarkir.
Sadly no confirmation on the feet situation for Ugin. Does Ghost-Dragon-Dad have legs?
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I do agree that Ugin resembles Bolas. That being said, everyone compares his (speculated) art to the normal Bolas art. When I saw the Ugin art, I immediately thought of the Duel Deck Bolas art. It appears very similar, though they do have plenty of differences (feathers, cobra thing, horns, ect.)
I personally like the idea of Ugin being a time shifted (alternate universe) Bolas. It would explain how Sarkhan can use his Nexus to go back in time. It explains why he looks so similar to Bolas, and its a fun nod to the first reference to Ugin, from Future Sight (Ghostfire). Also, maybe we will get a Ghostfire reprint!
Also, the short story "How Many Eyes?" by Matt Cavotta; is about Ugin to some extent. In the story Ugin emerges from a rift, to face the world and its unfamiliar landscape.
I'm going to place my guess on Ugin being time shifted. Possibly a time shifted Bolas.
(Sorry about the lack of links to images, just joined for this thread.)
If Ugin truly is from another dimension, I think he could be an Elder Dragon without conflicting with any of the lore that has been given.
For those of you who are ok with changing stories, just remember that there are those of us out there who really enjoy a good story that doesn't get changed repeatedly or thrown out because someone wanted to make money. I love Magic and got into it because of the artwork, flavor, and story. I started playing during Zendikar and I loved what they did with that block. If you take away the art, flavor, and story what is left? I'll tell you: numbers on cardboard. Wow, that's exciting. Stories and lore are incredibly important to those of us into fantasy and science fiction.
Is there anything to stop Ugin from, say, being Arcades Sabboth or Palladia-Mors or something? Colorless dragon magic is apparently really good at disgusing the true nature of creatures, after all, as we've learned from the flavor of morph in KTK.
Is there anything to stop Ugin from, say, being Arcades Sabboth or Palladia-Mors or something? Colorless dragon magic is apparently really good at disgusing the true nature of creatures, after all, as we've learned from the flavor of morph in KTK.
Short answer? Yes there is.
Mark isn't always an authority on flavor things, but since Doug has come along, he's been deflecting more of the things he isn't sure about to him. If he states something definitively, then you can tend to take it as a pretty solid source.
So, you can cast your creatures face down for then turn them face up for ? The color pie weeps. If any card grants morph to cards, the morph cost should be equal to the mana cost. Ugin won't reference Morph directly however as planeswalker cards aren't supposed to directly reference any mechanics of the set. Granting bonuses to colorless creatures will be fine as artifact creatures are also colorless.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
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I mean they could place some storys like the Kamigawa one some thing like 1000 before the Legends 2 cycle instead of +- 400 ( soo you could later make some other story for the myojin of night reach)
Also the fact that the Elder Dragon wars took place in like 25.000 years ago... ( I know this is alot, but kind of make the whole dragons being their descendents really knid of forced ( I know we don't really know if only 5 elder dragons survived , and if they were the only survivors then we have to think that they have to go from plane to plane procreating , and that they are all relatives ( brothers ( one Sister) , one cousing ))
25.000 is not alot of time to create the dragon kind in all the planes. I could acept if they said that 25.000 is in fact the age of Dominaria ( in currently continuit, and possible the only that will be; dominaria is younger than bolas that has +- 25000 years old)
The Elder Dragons are from Dominia, not Dominaria. Dominia is the name of the multiverse
Does Ugin have feet? I think he should but I cant tell from the art
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I will try not to be offended by the quotation marks...
Flisch, the problem you outlined has a simple reason. Like I said - either we respect some sources as canon, and, yes, the truth, or really - anything can happen. The problem is that we were used to have a cohesive storyline, when the authors themselves respected the what was written before as the objective truth - without any retcons, these were applied only in extreme cases (Karona on Phyrexia). This has gone through the chimney. And yeah, there were storyline experts that knew the whole books and sources and could have quoted them from mind.
Now every attempt for reasoning based on known sources has to face an army of "nay, anything can happen, etc..." sayers. It is hard to argue with people who come to discuss uninformed, armed practically only by this phrase, dismissing anything you quote from the sources as subjective?
Of course For you You haven't read "Planeswalker" and "Time Streams" in 2000 to learn about Xantcha and Karn. You probably haven't been around in 2003-2004 for the story of the first Mirrodin. Or were you? If not, I can understand everything is fine and dandy for you with what they served you in Scars.
Well, look when it was written. It was just an article trying to reference a couple of Future Sight cards. Without an idea who and what Ugin will eventually be.
Way to twist my words, right? But it serves me right, I had myself put an emphasis on "Bolas said..."
However, the info about the fate of the Elders (and the five being ONLY survivors) is not solely from Bolas's mouth. And speaking of Bolas and lying that you claim to be one of the relevant character traits...can you state an example where Bolas LIED? Not schemed (on Alara), camouflaged himself (Madara), but really lied?
To conclude the subject, because it seems it is getting more personal here than I like...
- I do not think Ugin is an Elder Dragon.
- I won't be surprised, though, if Wizards say he is one.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
The Tarkir wars were much more recent and were plane-specfic.
The elder wars were REALLY long ago and were all across Dominia (aka the Multiverse).
Do I have that correct so far?
I feel like there is potential for confusion now as people discuss these generically as "Dragon Wars."
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
To my knowledge ( I have been playing and following the story since 1995, and I admit I could be wrong ) Gaea, Mishra, Titania and Yawgmoth were never, at any point in any story planeswalkers. Gaea was the diety that the elves and Maro sorcerers revered on Dominaria, Mishra was simply Urza's brother who went on to begin Compleation in old Phyrexia before being killed my Urza in the Sylex blast, Titania was a Maro sorcerer on Argoth before Urza and Mishra destroyed it during the Brother's War, and Yawgmoth was simply an extremely powerful being but not remotely close to planeswalker status. Revisionist did not change these characters as far as I know.
Ummmm... no. Only Gaea, and only in prerevisionist story.
Indeed, who cares? Maybe those who liked that storyline of this particular TCG, Magic: The Gathering, was not like every second other stupid videogame and/or comics universes (Marvel or DC, who cares), where characters die and are ressurected everyday. At least they still keep true to the "do not retcon death of story-important characters (Yawgmoth)" rule.
Whatever, this discussion went off the topic...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
To many of us, these characters are Magic, and Magic are these characters. The beauty of these stories are the fact they remained untouched/untainted; they are enshrined in our memories. They make us feel vested into the game.
Retcon/changing storylines to suit a generation smells of profit-making stench. It may suit the present, but if you keep doing this, people will wonder why they even bother reading about Magic in the first place.
Imagine changing parts of the Harry Potter series as the the editorial/creative side sees fit. If you're a vested fan you will hate it.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Excellently said. Thank you!
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
We do.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
When you say things like this, you remind me of the people who claim that new Doctor Who isn't real Doctor Who, and that if you started with the new show you aren't a real fan. I wonder if, in a few years, the 'newer players' you're talking will be able to complain about how Jace, Chandra, and Gideon's stories were solid, gripping, and memorable, and so much better than whatever the current story of the time will be, no matter what.
If they are "enshrined in your memories", why does it matter if wizards says certain aspects did or didn't happen? The stories are preserved as they were originally in the most important place of all, your heart. Or whatever sentimental tidbit floats your goat my point being that if the old stuff is so important to you it's still there and isn't going anywhere so why are you so bothered by any changes wizards might decide to make nowadays?
You know what, you're right. How dare a commercial company try to make a profit. Actually now that I'm smelling for it myself, the stench of profit-making is all over this company. It's almost like if they didn't make a profit, they'd go out of business because that's how businesses work! Never mind the fact that if people didn't like it they wouldn't buy it, wizards should only be making things that appeal to your specific demographic, and only in such a way that generates absolutely no profit. That way, when wizards goes under, nobody will have to worry about the purity of the storyline anymore cause there won't be any more new stuff to taint it!
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Changing HP as the MtG creative side sees fit? That wouldn't make any sense because HP is completely different from MtG, and creatively the work of a single person. No-one other than JK would be able to change HP satisfyingly because nobody else is inside JK's head and knows the world and setting as well as she does. If you're saying changing HP as the HP creative side sees fit then...That's basically what happened when the books were still being written and not completed yet, right? So I really don't get what this last bit is supposed to mean.
I am sorry if I came across as offensive, I did not mean to.
I do agree with the sentiment that "but it can be retconned" is not a valid argument and shouldn't be used to defend one's theories, but I've seen people in the storyline corner far too often take unconfirmed information as proof for/against something.
Plus the subtle tone in the storyline corner seems to be very elitist, or at least used to be (it has toned down recently) and that was a very unwelcome atmosphere for new people interested in the storyline. Not quite the subject at hand, but I believe it's somewhat related.
I've been playing magic since 1996 and have read those books. Don't assume things, it makes you look like an ass.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I have taken this possibility into account, and that is why I said "probably" in the second sentence. For better clarity, it shall be in the first as well, yes. The "or were you" was also related to both previous sentences. But I don't wonder that you grasped this chance to take shot at me It is easy to overlook..if you want.
And if you have read all those books and still you see nothing wrong with the retcons...well, to each his/her own, and we two have nothing to talk about then.
Test of Metal, where the author himself did not respect the guidelines and kind of did whatever he wanted (and was arrogant afterwards after the fan reaction), the most atrocious of what was the "clockworking", is largely ignored, even by Wizards. Such mess it is.
I think I am done here for good I have only one nerves.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
No, Bolas wasn't lying, he left Ugin for dead. Yes, Ugin is native to Tarkir.
Sadly no confirmation on the feet situation for Ugin. Does Ghost-Dragon-Dad have legs?
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I personally like the idea of Ugin being a time shifted (alternate universe) Bolas. It would explain how Sarkhan can use his Nexus to go back in time. It explains why he looks so similar to Bolas, and its a fun nod to the first reference to Ugin, from Future Sight (Ghostfire). Also, maybe we will get a Ghostfire reprint!
Also, the short story "How Many Eyes?" by Matt Cavotta; is about Ugin to some extent. In the story Ugin emerges from a rift, to face the world and its unfamiliar landscape.
I'm going to place my guess on Ugin being time shifted. Possibly a time shifted Bolas.
(Sorry about the lack of links to images, just joined for this thread.)
For those of you who are ok with changing stories, just remember that there are those of us out there who really enjoy a good story that doesn't get changed repeatedly or thrown out because someone wanted to make money. I love Magic and got into it because of the artwork, flavor, and story. I started playing during Zendikar and I loved what they did with that block. If you take away the art, flavor, and story what is left? I'll tell you: numbers on cardboard. Wow, that's exciting. Stories and lore are incredibly important to those of us into fantasy and science fiction.
WotC, please hire me already.
Mark isn't always an authority on flavor things, but since Doug has come along, he's been deflecting more of the things he isn't sure about to him. If he states something definitively, then you can tend to take it as a pretty solid source.
Major thanks to Traprootkami for the signature.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.