I think the main thing is, contrary to what KillerDice says it's really tough to activate raid. You have to have dudes on the table already, they can't have summoning sickness, and it will likely cause you to make unfavourable attacks just to activate it. So this is generally going to end up as a 3/4 flyer for 5 or 2 3/4/ fliers for 5+sac a creature.
I would think the ease with which raid is activated would depend on the kind of deck one is playing, and also that the kind of deck in which raid is relatively easy to activate is the kind of deck that would be unlikely to have the problem of making unfavorable attacks (given that it would want to be attacking every turn). Based on what's been spoiled so far, I'm excited to experiment with an Abzan aggro/midrange kind of deck, with the likes of Soldier of the Pantheon, Gnarled Scarhide/Tormented Hero (maybe Thoughtseize), Fleecemane Lion, Rattleclaw Mystic, Brimaz, Anafenza (maybe Abzan Ascendancy - possibly also with Spirit Bonds), new Ajani, New Sorin (Maybe whip), Polukranos, and this giant bird and his buddy (Souls of Innistrad and Zendikar are possibilities, too). I don't think I would ever have trouble activating raid with a deck like this.
This is really good and has a chance to be a Standard/Modern staple.
Standard sure, modern no. Compare this to real modern five drops like Baneslayer Angel.
The best comparison is to Broodmate Dragon, which is a perfectly good card from a stronger standard and which it matches up quite reasonably to. Cant be played on empty board and giving 3/4s instead of 4/4s (which is an advantage with Elspeth) is a pretty fair trade-off for 1 less mana and 2 fewer colors. Raid instead of a straight ETB is fine, it just prevents it from being used as a control finisher the way Archangel of Thune was.
Gonna have to correct you here. Baneslayer isn't modern playable. Almost every 5 drop creature in modern is a combo piece like Archangel or Revillark. Hellkite sees a tiny bit amount of play and batterskull can recur/get equipped. I actually think this is better than baneslayer since he isn't countered by a single path, and it can get bounced by resto.
Anyone suggesting this card should be rare clearly doesn't play limited. I think the odds are that no one in this thread will ever beat this card in limited unless they're so far ahead that no card ever printed would win their opponent the game.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Anyone suggesting this card should be rare clearly doesn't play limited. I think the odds are that no one in this thread will ever beat this card in limited unless they're so far ahead that no card ever printed would win their opponent the game.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Have you played Khans of Tarkir Limited? No ...
No one can really tell but a thing to consider is how it can be dealt with in limited? if the only cards that can destroy it are rare(board wipers) than this should be a MR, If this is a bomb, 1st pick material , hard to remove,easy to splash, evasion , life gain ,and a good blocker than it is MR material ( for exemple if Kalonian Twingrove had Trample i think it would be MR ( really that card 1p1p is crazy ))
Underrated card from the looks of it. Four toughness keeps it safe from Bile Blight and Anger of the Gods. It's really hard to one-for-one this card (with the Raid trigger). The life gain trigger helps you win the race against aggressive decks while you continue attacking and 6 power over two bodies puts the opponent on a decent clock, probably a three-turn clock or less.
This is really good and has a chance to be a Standard/Modern staple.
Standard sure, modern no. Compare this to real modern five drops like Baneslayer Angel.
The best comparison is to Broodmate Dragon, which is a perfectly good card from a stronger standard and which it matches up quite reasonably to. Cant be played on empty board and giving 3/4s instead of 4/4s (which is an advantage with Elspeth) is a pretty fair trade-off for 1 less mana and 2 fewer colors. Raid instead of a straight ETB is fine, it just prevents it from being used as a control finisher the way Archangel of Thune was.
Gonna have to correct you here. Baneslayer isn't modern playable. Almost every 5 drop creature in modern is a combo piece like Archangel or Revillark. Hellkite sees a tiny bit amount of play and batterskull can recur/get equipped. I actually think this is better than baneslayer since he isn't countered by a single path, and it can get bounced by resto.
But yea it won't be a thing in modern.
That was kind of my point, Baneslayer is clearly better than this and doesn't see play. It's hard to compare a card that relies on straight power to a combo piece, and Baneslayer was the first 5cmc white flier that isnt combo to come to mind. It's true that Wingmate doesn't die to path, but I don't think it offers nearly the same amount of power. The lifegain ability is MUCH weaker and it cant block as well (Goyf easily gets larger than a 3/4). Either way, Wingmate isn't good enough for Modern unless.
Anyone suggesting this card should be rare clearly doesn't play limited. I think the odds are that no one in this thread will ever beat this card in limited unless they're so far ahead that no card ever printed would win their opponent the game.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Name one rare that is as good as this when behind and still incredibly powerful when even/ahead in limited spoiled so far. It would be completely unbalanced at rare.
for some reason, i can imagine this in UW/control or some weird UW aggro built with geist of saint traft, restoration angel and stuff...... or even pod or GW aggro decks....
can you imagine:
Wingmate Roc attacks, restoration angel flashed in, wingmate comes back with a buddy.
Anyone suggesting this card should be rare clearly doesn't play limited. I think the odds are that no one in this thread will ever beat this card in limited unless they're so far ahead that no card ever printed would win their opponent the game.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Have you played Khans of Tarkir Limited? No ...
No one can really tell but a thing to consider is how it can be dealt with in limited? if the only cards that can destroy it are rare(board wipers) than this should be a MR, If this is a bomb, 1st pick material , hard to remove,easy to splash, evasion , life gain ,and a good blocker than it is MR material ( for exemple if Kalonian Twingrove had Trample i think it would be MR ( really that card 1p1p is crazy ))
Hmmmm you going to argue Sagu Mauler should be MR, given your above conditions?
Anyone suggesting this card should be rare clearly doesn't play limited. I think the odds are that no one in this thread will ever beat this card in limited unless they're so far ahead that no card ever printed would win their opponent the game.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Have you played Khans of Tarkir Limited? No ...
No one can really tell but a thing to consider is how it can be dealt with in limited? if the only cards that can destroy it are rare(board wipers) than this should be a MR, If this is a bomb, 1st pick material , hard to remove,easy to splash, evasion , life gain ,and a good blocker than it is MR material ( for exemple if Kalonian Twingrove had Trample i think it would be MR ( really that card 1p1p is crazy ))
Hmmmm you going to argue Sagu Mauler should be MR, given your above conditions?
Don't die to removal. Don't have evasion . Don't Gain life. Can be beasted in combat easy ( diferent from the roc that needs 2 creatures blocking it and both have to be flying, or the roc conects for at least one time dealing 3) . 1 less mana (if you play sagu morphed he is more vulnerave to removal). Mono color.
Both are good in limited, both will win the game , but the roc at least is better at the win more thing...
People are imagining that raid will just trigger itself every turn, then when this card comes out you will play a bunch of games where this sits in your hand because raid isn't turning on.
Ehh.... very boring for a mythic but I feel it definitely deserves to be there b/c of what you're getting for five mana. Also does anyone else look at that lifegain ability tacked on and think that they may have originally given both birds lifelink but then thought it was too powerful and nerfed it?
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Casual Decks WRBoros Aggro (Glorious knights of badassery) RBRakdos Bloodthirst (Undercosted waves of fat s***) URIzzet Talrand/Pyromancer (b/c I hate you) GRGruul Ramp and Stomp (SO FAT. SO FAST. RAWRRR) GBGolgari Birthing Pod (b/c you wanted a challenge. I did warn you this BS is banned though) BWOrzhov Lifegain Aggro (Removal for dayzzz) WGSelesnya Tribal Golem-splicers/token (meh. Needs more upgrades. Perhaps switching to bant?) WUAzorius Flicker (b/c I wanna annoy the f*** outta you) GUSimic Evolve Aggro (Aggro takes a journey to the weird side of the color pie) BUDimir Control (b/c I wanna peel your skin off and flay you within an inch of life before I kill you) URWJeskai Ascendency Tokens (MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA) RWBMardu Warriors (Butcher is da bomb) GU Simic Morph (slow as s*** but oh so fun) WBGAbzan Dredge-animator (PURE EVIL) GWHexproof Aggro (Deal with it. Lemme guess, you cant?)
EDH Decks UBRNekusar (Multiplayer MONSTA. 1v1 Klutz) GRB Prossh (Set up engines. WRECK FACE) GEzuri (Hey so I heard you liked Elves...) UTalrand (Counter. Cantrip. Counter. Cantrip. Repeat till opponents die-- possibly of boredom)
Tiny leaders WUDaxos (basic 3/1 fliers do basic s***. Also Daxos) RWAnax and Cymede (Heroic weenie beats)
Standard RRMONO RED AGGRO (RAWWWRRRR!!!!) WUHeroic Aggro (Easy mode beatstick)
Turning on Raid might not be trivial, but this card allows you to go all out for the attack, then have 2 x 4-toughness creatures to defend against the counter-attack. They also switch on Raid for the next round.
I agree with many here in that this card feels more Rare than Mythic rare, but I would still be happy opening this in Limited.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
No doubt it's a good card, but the second ability there doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. How much are you actually going to care about gaining life if you are the aggressive Mardu raid deck? Feels like it was something else in design and changed late to stop it being pushed too hard. I find myself utterly uninspired by this card.
Could be a way to tip the balance of a race. Ask any aggro deck in the past how much they hate lifegain
I would think the ease with which raid is activated would depend on the kind of deck one is playing, and also that the kind of deck in which raid is relatively easy to activate is the kind of deck that would be unlikely to have the problem of making unfavorable attacks (given that it would want to be attacking every turn). Based on what's been spoiled so far, I'm excited to experiment with an Abzan aggro/midrange kind of deck, with the likes of Soldier of the Pantheon, Gnarled Scarhide/Tormented Hero (maybe Thoughtseize), Fleecemane Lion, Rattleclaw Mystic, Brimaz, Anafenza (maybe Abzan Ascendancy - possibly also with Spirit Bonds), new Ajani, New Sorin (Maybe whip), Polukranos, and this giant bird and his buddy (Souls of Innistrad and Zendikar are possibilities, too). I don't think I would ever have trouble activating raid with a deck like this.
Gonna have to correct you here. Baneslayer isn't modern playable. Almost every 5 drop creature in modern is a combo piece like Archangel or Revillark. Hellkite sees a tiny bit amount of play and batterskull can recur/get equipped. I actually think this is better than baneslayer since he isn't countered by a single path, and it can get bounced by resto.
But yea it won't be a thing in modern.
Oh come on. There are bunches of (non-mythic) rares that give nearly as good, or as good, or better power (depending on the situation) than this guy does in limited. Including some that have been spoiled already in this set! Rare is the upper limit where one can plausibly say that a card "has to be this rarity because of limited." Is it a first pick? Yes. Is it a bomb? Yes. That doesn't alone justify it being mythic.
Have you played Khans of Tarkir Limited? No ...
No one can really tell but a thing to consider is how it can be dealt with in limited? if the only cards that can destroy it are rare(board wipers) than this should be a MR, If this is a bomb, 1st pick material , hard to remove,easy to splash, evasion , life gain ,and a good blocker than it is MR material ( for exemple if Kalonian Twingrove had Trample i think it would be MR ( really that card 1p1p is crazy ))
That was kind of my point, Baneslayer is clearly better than this and doesn't see play. It's hard to compare a card that relies on straight power to a combo piece, and Baneslayer was the first 5cmc white flier that isnt combo to come to mind. It's true that Wingmate doesn't die to path, but I don't think it offers nearly the same amount of power. The lifegain ability is MUCH weaker and it cant block as well (Goyf easily gets larger than a 3/4). Either way, Wingmate isn't good enough for Modern unless.
Name one rare that is as good as this when behind and still incredibly powerful when even/ahead in limited spoiled so far. It would be completely unbalanced at rare.
can you imagine:
Wingmate Roc attacks, restoration angel flashed in, wingmate comes back with a buddy.
can see it maybe getting some edh play
will be very surprised if it sees standard play beyond first formative weeks.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Hmmmm you going to argue Sagu Mauler should be MR, given your above conditions?
Don't die to removal. Don't have evasion . Don't Gain life. Can be beasted in combat easy ( diferent from the roc that needs 2 creatures blocking it and both have to be flying, or the roc conects for at least one time dealing 3) . 1 less mana (if you play sagu morphed he is more vulnerave to removal). Mono color.
Both are good in limited, both will win the game , but the roc at least is better at the win more thing...
People are imagining that raid will just trigger itself every turn, then when this card comes out you will play a bunch of games where this sits in your hand because raid isn't turning on.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
WRBoros Aggro (Glorious knights of badassery)
RBRakdos Bloodthirst (Undercosted waves of fat s***)
URIzzet Talrand/Pyromancer (b/c I hate you)
GRGruul Ramp and Stomp (SO FAT. SO FAST. RAWRRR)
GBGolgari Birthing Pod (b/c you wanted a challenge. I did warn you this BS is banned though)
BWOrzhov Lifegain Aggro (Removal for dayzzz)
WGSelesnya Tribal Golem-splicers/token (meh. Needs more upgrades. Perhaps switching to bant?)
WUAzorius Flicker (b/c I wanna annoy the f*** outta you)
GUSimic Evolve Aggro (Aggro takes a journey to the weird side of the color pie)
BUDimir Control (b/c I wanna peel your skin off and flay you within an inch of life before I kill you)
URWJeskai Ascendency Tokens (MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
RWBMardu Warriors (Butcher is da bomb)
GU Simic Morph (slow as s*** but oh so fun)
WBGAbzan Dredge-animator (PURE EVIL)
GWHexproof Aggro (Deal with it. Lemme guess, you cant?)
EDH Decks
UBRNekusar (Multiplayer MONSTA. 1v1 Klutz)
GRB Prossh (Set up engines. WRECK FACE)
GEzuri (Hey so I heard you liked Elves...)
UTalrand (Counter. Cantrip. Counter. Cantrip. Repeat till opponents die-- possibly of boredom)
Tiny leaders
WUDaxos (basic 3/1 fliers do basic s***. Also Daxos)
RWAnax and Cymede (Heroic weenie beats)
Standard
RRMONO RED AGGRO (RAWWWRRRR!!!!)
WUHeroic Aggro (Easy mode beatstick)
I agree with many here in that this card feels more Rare than Mythic rare, but I would still be happy opening this in Limited.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
just make it an angel and no one will complain why it's mythic rare.
The audacity of Wizards. The mythic rarity was invented for Angels, Demons, Dragons and planeswalkers.
Could be a way to tip the balance of a race. Ask any aggro deck in the past how much they hate lifegain
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall