Doesn't this card really push control in Standard? The lists won't technically be mono-black anymore, but it's not like the white splash has to be very deep in order to reap the benefits of this card. I'm not sure if control lists actually want 8 Hero's Downfall effects, but the added versatility of being able to hit enchantments and artifacts is relevant, especially given that's something black typically struggles with.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
We get an amazing piece of removal that will definitely standard play, and all you can do is complain?!?! This card is great! Not only does it allow three color decks to have removal that is less color intensive than hero's downfall, but this card also has a couple other relevant upsides:
1. It can hit ANY nonland permanent. Unlike Hero's downfall, this can not only kill creatures and planeswalkers, but artifacts and enchantments as well. Needed a Hero's Downfall stapled to a Revoke Existence? Well, it's here. This spell kills banishing lights, Gods, Godsends, and all the other pesky nonland permanents you don't want your opponent to have.
2. It Exiles, not just kills. If Delve cards or Reanimator strategies are a thing in standard, this could end up really mattering. Not only that, but it can also kill things with Indestructible: namely, the gods, and anything affected by the ability of spirit bonds.
Well I don't see BUG being control for this Standard like some people at my LGS think. I believe the best control deck available for Standard will be WB.
You realize BUG Control as it stands loses nothing other than spot removal which is only a handful of cards right? BUG can very well play control with the large card pool it already has access too going into rotation. It is really only looking for 1 or 2 cheap spot removal options.
I'm aware BUG Control is playable in Standard and isn't losing hardly anything. What I'm saying is it will not be the best available control deck for competitive Standard. Well I'll hold final judgement until we see all of the Sultai cards, but so far I think BW is better.
Because it does not have a 4CC instant speed Vindicate? This spell is good, but it is not that good. Gods lose a lot of favor in standard moving into KTK and that momentum begins to really dog on the application of this card. Hitting a walker is all fine and dandy, but Downfall is cheaper and artifacts and enchantments are fairly negligible given that the playable enchantments are all creatures and artifacts are absent from the format and in Block. The extra mana really is not worth all that much in the grand scheme of the Standard format and Block Constructed.
The white sweeper is also not even close to being strictly better than AEtherspouts as it first off is not instant and also does not allow you to retain your own board position in the same way Spouts does and if you are in black, spot removal makes spouts even better than the new white sweeper because you get to continually threaten it and react more effectively to opponents playing around your instant speed wrath effect and finally it has tempo gain to boot.
Everyone is right. This should of cost white/black, and exiled 3 permanents, and been a common.
/SARCASM
I believe the general complaint is, what does this do that the oblivion ring variants don't do? Grats, two colors and more mana for instant speed.
In short, it's not an Enchantment and is permanent removal. Enchantment may not matter much in most Standard formats, but one in which half the cards revolve around enchantments means that Banishing Lightet al will be at a nadir of effectiveness (which is not to say that they won't be effective).
It shouldn't hit land. Comparing land destruction to counterspells betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game should work. A counterspell is a one-time block preventing a single card from being played. The mana must be available for its use at that given time. Land destruction not only sets the player back a turn, it may completely ruin the game for that player. Mana screw is real and it decides games more often than it should. All land destruction does is increase the occurrence that degenerate dynamic. Plus, efficiently costed land destruction encourages entire deck strategies built around it, which is the most unfun type of deck to play against.
Counterspells are more closely comparable to tapping out an opponent's land for a turn or so (a la Tamiyo's +1).
Said it better than I ever could. The ONLY good thing about land destruction decks is that at least they USUALLY have the decency to kill your quicker than draw-go.
All said, I'd be shocked if this didn't see play in standard. Modern might be asking too much, Unless the tokens/soul sisters deck wants it in the sideboard.
Since black and white are my two favorite colors of this game, I find this card to be very awesome, as it is an instant-speed version of vindicate that exiles permanents rather than destroying them. I can accept the higher mana cost as an exchange for its increased power, but its inability to target lands is bothersome to me. 4 mana is too high for me to use it in my "normal" decks (i.e., non-EDH, intended for casual, legacy, and/or modern play), but I could certainly use it in my EDH decks, although I am very fond of both mortify and unmake, and may not be able to bring myself to remove them from my decks that have those cards, just as I cannot bring myself to replace angel of despair with ashen rider, despite the rider's greater power, because of its higher mana cost and the fact that angels are my favorite creatures in the game.
How expensive might this card be as a single? As expensive as hero's downfall, or only as expensive as unmake or mortify (it obviously shall not be nearly as expensive as vindicate)? Overall, it is an excellent card, despite its major flaw (i.e., being unable to exile lands).
It's Rare, so it won't be as cheap as Unmake or Mortify.
It's also not very good for Modern or Legacy,
so I would expect it to max out at $7-$10.
Probably $5 when the set has been opened a lot-
See Detention Sphere.
I went ahead and bought four for $10, which seems like a fine price
(even if I have a love/hate relationship with this card-
grrrr, this is one time I actually want a $30 card! )
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Well I don't see BUG being control for this Standard like some people at my LGS think. I believe the best control deck available for Standard will be WB.
You realize BUG Control as it stands loses nothing other than spot removal which is only a handful of cards right? BUG can very well play control with the large card pool it already has access too going into rotation. It is really only looking for 1 or 2 cheap spot removal options.
I'm aware BUG Control is playable in Standard and isn't losing hardly anything. What I'm saying is it will not be the best available control deck for competitive Standard. Well I'll hold final judgement until we see all of the Sultai cards, but so far I think BW is better.
Because it does not have a 4CC instant speed Vindicate? This spell is good, but it is not that good. Gods lose a lot of favor in standard moving into KTK and that momentum begins to really dog on the application of this card. Hitting a walker is all fine and dandy, but Downfall is cheaper and artifacts and enchantments are fairly negligible given that the playable enchantments are all creatures and artifacts are absent from the format and in Block. The extra mana really is not worth all that much in the grand scheme of the Standard format and Block Constructed.
The white sweeper is also not even close to being strictly better than AEtherspouts as it first off is not instant and also does not allow you to retain your own board position in the same way Spouts does and if you are in black, spot removal makes spouts even better than the new white sweeper because you get to continually threaten it and react more effectively to opponents playing around your instant speed wrath effect and finally it has tempo gain to boot.
This card is good, but it is not that good.
AEtherspouts is a good card but I still think white has too much to offer with cards like banishing light and Elspeth. Not to mention WOTC has even said Abzan is geared more toward control then the other clans. So I think we will still see some control from them.I honestly am fine with either being the dominate control deck. I don't even know if I will run control this standard. I just have more faith in one more so than the other at the moment.
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Modern U Merfolk U UBR Death's Shadow UBR
EDH UR Jhoira of the Ghitu UR G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
Well I don't see BUG being control for this Standard like some people at my LGS think. I believe the best control deck available for Standard will be WB.
You realize BUG Control as it stands loses nothing other than spot removal which is only a handful of cards right? BUG can very well play control with the large card pool it already has access too going into rotation. It is really only looking for 1 or 2 cheap spot removal options.
I'm aware BUG Control is playable in Standard and isn't losing hardly anything. What I'm saying is it will not be the best available control deck for competitive Standard. Well I'll hold final judgement until we see all of the Sultai cards, but so far I think BW is better.
Because it does not have a 4CC instant speed Vindicate? This spell is good, but it is not that good. Gods lose a lot of favor in standard moving into KTK and that momentum begins to really dog on the application of this card. Hitting a walker is all fine and dandy, but Downfall is cheaper and artifacts and enchantments are fairly negligible given that the playable enchantments are all creatures and artifacts are absent from the format and in Block. The extra mana really is not worth all that much in the grand scheme of the Standard format and Block Constructed.
The white sweeper is also not even close to being strictly better than AEtherspouts as it first off is not instant and also does not allow you to retain your own board position in the same way Spouts does and if you are in black, spot removal makes spouts even better than the new white sweeper because you get to continually threaten it and react more effectively to opponents playing around your instant speed wrath effect and finally it has tempo gain to boot.
This card is good, but it is not that good.
AEtherspouts is a good card but I still think white has too much to offer with cards like banishing light and Elspeth. Not to mention WOTC has even said Abzan is geared more toward control then the other clans. So I think we will still see some control from them.I honestly am fine with either being the dominate control deck. I don't even know if I will run control this standard. I just have more faith in one more so than the other at the moment.
Abzan looks very creature centric and has a lot of control elements it has to make up for from Theros and M15 before it is on par with BUG going into this spoiler season. I am fine with either one as well, all I really care about is smashing face with Nissa. Just seems like Abzan, even with this card, is pretty far behind if it want's a solid control shell.
It's fantastic. It kills pretty much anything, though at a premium cost. I suspect decks that want the versatility of dealing with almost any relevant threat with the thoroughness of beating most defensive traits (particularly Indestructible, which will be relevant with the Gods) will likely opt to play this in some quantities. It might be too expensive for Modern, but I could still see it making sideboards there pending the format. The cost is entirely appropriate and anyone who thinks it should be Vindicate has really no clue how Magiic cards are designed anymore.
Everyone is right. This should of cost white/black, and exiled 3 permanents, and been a common.
/SARCASM
I believe the general complaint is, what does this do that the oblivion ring variants don't do? Grats, two colors and more mana for instant speed.
In short, it's not an Enchantment and is permanent removal. Enchantment may not matter much in most Standard formats, but one in which half the cards revolve around enchantments means that Banishing Lightet al will be at a nadir of effectiveness (which is not to say that they won't be effective).
I could counter by saying "devotion" or "constellation" and then saying Banishing Light is superior.
Historically 4cc removal usually had the upside of exiling multiple threats. I doubt any kind of control shell will want 4cc removal that can't hit a stormbreath dragon and aggro certainly won't.
msun: Knives scoop ice cream.
Highroller: No they don't, knives don't scoop. Spoons scoop.
msun: Well, knives SHOULD scoop icecream.
Highroller: We have spoons that do it. Moreover, the shape of a knife that would scoop ice cream would make it horrible for performing the functions of a knife.
msun: Highroller, you bring up spoons as though they were the utensil used for scooping ice cream.
Its just me or does it feel that if I'm running black, I'd rather play Hero's Downfall? In practical terms it hits almost the same stuff and cost 1 less. Sure you can argue that this one hits enchants and artifacts (although artifacts aren't really being played) but the W mana and the higher CMC makes me wonder if it really matters.
If gods were more used, this would be a better card.
IMHO its standard playability will completely depend on the meta once Khans comes out. If many enchantments/artifacts/gods will be played this removal will be either main deck or at least sideboard. Another reason for this to see play, if there will be any relevant reanimator/dredge deck against which the exile would be really useful.
I think people are taking the comparisons too seriously. Vindicate is being mentioned again and again with light-hearted intentions. We all know it won't return.
Somehow I missed that this exiles at first. My eyes just saw 4 and that was the loudest part of the card to me for some reason. RTFC me lol
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
For those asking for Vindicate, incidental land destruction tends to lead to far worse gameplay than dedicated land destruction spells like Stone Rain. It takes a lot of effort to make use of a dedicated land destruction card, whereas it's a lot more likely that your opponent is playing Vindicate for the universal removal and you just happen to have a land-light draw, causing you to lose instantly. Having those types of land destruction spells around amplifies the natural variance of Magic's mana system, especially in a multicolor environment where manabases will be more vulnerable than usual.
Its just me or does it feel that if I'm running black, I'd rather play Hero's Downfall? In practical terms it hits almost the same stuff and cost 1 less. Sure you can argue that this one hits enchants and artifacts (although artifacts aren't really being played) but the W mana and the higher CMC makes me wonder if it really matters.
If gods were more used, this would be a better card.
IMHO its standard playability will completely depend on the meta once Khans comes out. If many enchantments/artifacts/gods will be played this removal will be either main deck or at least sideboard. Another reason for this to see play, if there will be any relevant reanimator/dredge deck against which the exile would be really useful.
I find it hard to believe that an enchant heavy deck will come out when they printed back to nature, but ofc you have a valid point, and that's why I mentioned "If gods were better, this would be a better card". But at this point, the thing I could agree is that exiling might be relevant if some biggie/reanimator stuff comes out. I mean its not like the card is useless or something, I'm just comparing it to Hero's Downfall from a T2 point of view
I wouldn't write off the gods, yet. Keranos has proven himself in modern as a finisher adn I could easily see that if there will be any RUx control decks in standard they might use him as well. Of course the downfall has strong upsides compared to this card (mainly the mana cost), I'm not denying that.
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WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
We get an amazing piece of removal that will definitely standard play, and all you can do is complain?!?! This card is great! Not only does it allow three color decks to have removal that is less color intensive than hero's downfall, but this card also has a couple other relevant upsides:
1. It can hit ANY nonland permanent. Unlike Hero's downfall, this can not only kill creatures and planeswalkers, but artifacts and enchantments as well. Needed a Hero's Downfall stapled to a Revoke Existence? Well, it's here. This spell kills banishing lights, Gods, Godsends, and all the other pesky nonland permanents you don't want your opponent to have.
2. It Exiles, not just kills. If Delve cards or Reanimator strategies are a thing in standard, this could end up really mattering. Not only that, but it can also kill things with Indestructible: namely, the gods, and anything affected by the ability of spirit bonds.
Instant speed and they won't get it back. This card is hunky-dory.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
Because it does not have a 4CC instant speed Vindicate? This spell is good, but it is not that good. Gods lose a lot of favor in standard moving into KTK and that momentum begins to really dog on the application of this card. Hitting a walker is all fine and dandy, but Downfall is cheaper and artifacts and enchantments are fairly negligible given that the playable enchantments are all creatures and artifacts are absent from the format and in Block. The extra mana really is not worth all that much in the grand scheme of the Standard format and Block Constructed.
The white sweeper is also not even close to being strictly better than AEtherspouts as it first off is not instant and also does not allow you to retain your own board position in the same way Spouts does and if you are in black, spot removal makes spouts even better than the new white sweeper because you get to continually threaten it and react more effectively to opponents playing around your instant speed wrath effect and finally it has tempo gain to boot.
This card is good, but it is not that good.
In short, it's not an Enchantment and is permanent removal. Enchantment may not matter much in most Standard formats, but one in which half the cards revolve around enchantments means that Banishing Light et al will be at a nadir of effectiveness (which is not to say that they won't be effective).
Also Inkmoth Nexus. And Celestial Colonnade. Any many more.
Said it better than I ever could. The ONLY good thing about land destruction decks is that at least they USUALLY have the decency to kill your quicker than draw-go.
All said, I'd be shocked if this didn't see play in standard. Modern might be asking too much, Unless the tokens/soul sisters deck wants it in the sideboard.
How expensive might this card be as a single? As expensive as hero's downfall, or only as expensive as unmake or mortify (it obviously shall not be nearly as expensive as vindicate)? Overall, it is an excellent card, despite its major flaw (i.e., being unable to exile lands).
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It's also not very good for Modern or Legacy,
so I would expect it to max out at $7-$10.
Probably $5 when the set has been opened a lot-
See Detention Sphere.
I went ahead and bought four for $10, which seems like a fine price
(even if I have a love/hate relationship with this card-
grrrr, this is one time I actually want a $30 card! )
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
AEtherspouts is a good card but I still think white has too much to offer with cards like banishing light and Elspeth. Not to mention WOTC has even said Abzan is geared more toward control then the other clans. So I think we will still see some control from them.I honestly am fine with either being the dominate control deck. I don't even know if I will run control this standard. I just have more faith in one more so than the other at the moment.
U Merfolk U
UBR Death's Shadow UBR
EDH
UR Jhoira of the Ghitu UR
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
Abzan looks very creature centric and has a lot of control elements it has to make up for from Theros and M15 before it is on par with BUG going into this spoiler season. I am fine with either one as well, all I really care about is smashing face with Nissa. Just seems like Abzan, even with this card, is pretty far behind if it want's a solid control shell.
To me it looks like sideboard tech which will function to kill hard to deal with planeswalkers.
With Hero's Downfall in the format and a glut of mana fixing to get the 1BB this card is unplayable. I think perhaps it should have cost WBR.
This is why I see it as a sideboard card.
It's only good against slow planeswalker decks. It's the answer to the new Sarkhan just in case he gets out of control.
I could counter by saying "devotion" or "constellation" and then saying Banishing Light is superior.
Historically 4cc removal usually had the upside of exiling multiple threats. I doubt any kind of control shell will want 4cc removal that can't hit a stormbreath dragon and aggro certainly won't.
Gogo good design.
For those that want better, and when they get that (fetches?) - want more,
I do not get it. This card will be good in Standard, good in limited.
Maybe playable in Modern, who knows yet? Set is not fully spoiled.
Its better than some, that's for sure.
IMHO its standard playability will completely depend on the meta once Khans comes out. If many enchantments/artifacts/gods will be played this removal will be either main deck or at least sideboard. Another reason for this to see play, if there will be any relevant reanimator/dredge deck against which the exile would be really useful.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I wouldn't write off the gods, yet. Keranos has proven himself in modern as a finisher adn I could easily see that if there will be any RUx control decks in standard they might use him as well. Of course the downfall has strong upsides compared to this card (mainly the mana cost), I'm not denying that.