Howl could work into storm somehow, but I think in standard we will see it in Rabble red. Turn 4 attack with one gobo cast Howl, convoke stoke the flames for 12 to the dome... seems ok.
...
I don't disagree with that. All I'm saying is that since there's a card available that does nearly everything you want Sidisi to do, but with less finagling and setup, that I'm going to play it. For example, I think most of the time more people would elect to play some sort of Prosperity card rather than trying to setup something like Divination+Twincast+Reverberate. It has a similar or better level of payout without needing multiple things to go right.
But you don't need much setup for sidisi to work - for getting zombies often you just need enough creatures (if you have 20 creatures in a 60 card deck the expected value of found creatures in 3 cards is 1, which would already be enough for Sidisi).
At the same time she herself provides great utility for an alraedy existing deck (there have been quite a lot of lists for the golgari "dredge" deck). And there her abilities are upsides even if she misses creatures.
Creature types are a way of giving tribes distinct identities.
Creature types are a ways for cards to synergize. Artwork, flavour text and supplemental writing are a way of giving tribes distinct identities.
Especially as they tryd to reduce the different types first, just to input random others.
Naga could and "should" be snakes, the same way as goblins are also different from every plane , VERY different even (Mogg are goblins, kamigawa goblins, mirrodin goblins, still all goblins).
Human is one of the biggest types.
Soldier is another one.
Leonin are still cats, and thats good.
Merfolk are actual Merfolk (no matter the plane).
Elves are actual Elves (no matter the plane).
Goblins are actual Goblins (no matter the plane).
Zombies are still Zombies (no matter the plane), so "ghouls" are still zombies and the frankenstein kind of zombie, is still a zombie.
*They still do vampires, skeletons, spirits and other "undead" types, which could technicly all be "undead", but its good to distinct them.
Birds are still birds, while the "human" form birds could be a creature type for themself.
...
So theres a lot of creature types that dont exist, but "could".
It still only makes sence for the most basic types if you really must distinct them.
Dont just make "naga" for no reason, and Naga should really be snakes, the same way Leonin are Cats.
Its also a kick in the nuts for any Kamigawa "snake" tribe synergy ; and for that reason alone they should be snakes allready.
Birds are still birds, while the "human" form birds could be a creature type for themself.
...
So theres a lot of creature types that dont exist, but "could".
It still only makes sence for the most basic types if you really must distinct them.
Dont just make "naga" for no reason, and Naga should really be snakes, the same way Leonin are Cats.
Its also a kick in the nuts for any Kamigawa "snake" tribe synergy ; and for that reason alone they should be snakes allready.
Should Gorgons and Harpies be Snakes and Birds too?
Animale folk only get a unique name if that name is already well known in fatasy. (Viashino is grandfathered in).
Conversly if they have a well known name they go they get that as their type.
Aur Ain Soph, while my first post wasn't padded with platitudes and friendly smileys, frankly-stated disagreement is only "offensive" to certain kinds of people, and my original tone (not to mention the subject at hand) don't nearly justify this level of confrontation and quote-sniping, so I'm going to bow out.
Aur Ain Soph, while my first post wasn't padded with platitudes and friendly smileys, frankly-stated disagreement is only "offensive" to certain kinds of people, and my original tone (not to mention the subject at hand) don't nearly justify this level of confrontation and quote-sniping, so I'm going to bow out.
I'm not offended by you disagreeing with me. I would welcome criticism and discussion if you would be thoughtful and actually engage what I wrote. I was offended by the fact that you disregarded the whole of what I said in order to apodeictically assert an extreme opposing position which itself should not be taken seriously. I'm offended by the fact that any time anyone says anything even slightly nuanced, they get shouted down and derailed by others in this way. This is not good conduct and I shouldn't have to deal with it, so I was confrontational.
I think some people are over-emphasizing the fact that you can kill Sidisi in response to the trigger so there's no Zombie token and it's 1BUG for mill 3. Well, guess what? Baneslayer Angel costs five mana and kicked some butts in standard, despite there being better removal around. Baneslayer didn't even require instant speed removal. Another example: Hero of Bladehold. I could make a longer list if you'd like.
In summary: Sidisi, Brood Tyrant dies to removal. That doesn't make it a non-competitive card by any means. First of all, I think it's good as a stand-alone.. but guess what? You can build your deck to have synergy with it! Will it have a home? I can't predict the future, but I can tell you that this is a powerful card.
...
I don't disagree with that. All I'm saying is that since there's a card available that does nearly everything you want Sidisi to do, but with less finagling and setup, that I'm going to play it. For example, I think most of the time more people would elect to play some sort of Prosperity card rather than trying to setup something like Divination+Twincast+Reverberate. It has a similar or better level of payout without needing multiple things to go right.
But you don't need much setup for sidisi to work - for getting zombies often you just need enough creatures (if you have 20 creatures in a 60 card deck the expected value of found creatures in 3 cards is 1, which would already be enough for Sidisi).
At the same time she herself provides great utility for an alraedy existing deck (there have been quite a lot of lists for the golgari "dredge" deck). And there her abilities are upsides even if she misses creatures.
You're right, you don't need a lot of setup, but you do need to take extra steps in deck construction to ensure she does enough to warrant inclusion. With Elspeth, your main questions are "Am I playing white? Do I expect to be able to cast a 6cc spell?" That's pretty much it. And yeah, while milling yourself may have side benefits like being able to reanimate things and fuel Delve, those are again things that you are trying to setup and then the question becomes "Is the payout high enough to bother? Am I okay with dumping Coursers of Kruphix and other value creatures for 2/2 tokens?" For me, the answer to those inquiries is that it's not worth it and I'd rather just slam Elspeth and reliably shove wave after wave of dudes into the red zone.
If there's a point where Sidisi becomes a thing, then that's great, but I just don't see it as of right now. There could be a card that acts as a catalyst to that exact strategy, but we won't know until the whole set is revealed, obviously
Private Mod Note
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
How is it invalid or a vastly different strategy? We're talking about permanents that make tokens and my argument is that one is better and more reliable than the other.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Birds are still birds, while the "human" form birds could be a creature type for themself.
...
So theres a lot of creature types that dont exist, but "could".
It still only makes sence for the most basic types if you really must distinct them.
Dont just make "naga" for no reason, and Naga should really be snakes, the same way Leonin are Cats.
Its also a kick in the nuts for any Kamigawa "snake" tribe synergy ; and for that reason alone they should be snakes allready.
Should Gorgons and Harpies be Snakes and Birds too?
Animale folk only get a unique name if that name is already well known in fatasy. (Viashino is grandfathered in).
Conversly if they have a well known name they go they get that as their type.
Gorgon and Harpie are old aswell, older than Viashino even.
So they "could" migrate the types, and fix all the old creature types aswell, as they allready did with some of them (as old cards had very unique creature types).
For gorgon its kinda obvisious that they are not snakes and not even remotely look like a snake (they just have snakes on their head ofcourse).
Harpie are also pretty specific, well established creature type.
Naga however is really something they didnt need, they even dont distinguish from the Kamigawa snakes in looks. In what way are they different ? Naga and the Kamigawa Snakes, totally the same.
I think some people are over-emphasizing the fact that you can kill Sidisi in response to the trigger so there's no Zombie token and it's 1BUG for mill 3. Well, guess what? Baneslayer Angel costs five mana and kicked some butts in standard, despite there being better removal around. Baneslayer didn't even require instant speed removal. Another example: Hero of Bladehold. I could make a longer list if you'd like.
In summary: Sidisi, Brood Tyrant dies to removal. That doesn't make it a non-competitive card by any means. First of all, I think it's good as a stand-alone.. but guess what? You can build your deck to have synergy with it! Will it have a home? I can't predict the future, but I can tell you that this is a powerful card.
The question really isnt if a creature dies to removal, its how much of an impact it is when it doesnt die, and how much removal it can dodge that is commonly played (being big, that is burn and -X/-X effects, most the time 4 thoughness is the magical number to dodge most of that kind of removal).
Baneslayer has the gigantic advantage that you simply win the game if its not killed, even against superior board of the opponent and its the road block for any aggro opponent (Wurmcoil Engine is pretty much the same, just better as it dodges even more removal, and is a even better win option, especially being colorless).
Sidisi effect is for quite a part "random" and the body too small to block/attack reasonable well ; it costs 4 mana and with 3 thoughness dies to pretty much any removal in the format ; combined with a bad mana cost that asks for specific decks AND the problem that the other legend hoses graveyards and is a 4/4 (which really doesnt help Sidisi).
That all combines into a bad result for Sidisi, but people can easily play the card in casual formats and get value out of it.
Naga however is really something they didnt need, they even dont distinguish from the Kamigawa snakes in looks. In what way are they different ? Naga and the Kamigawa Snakes, totally the same.
Probably a bit more aquatic in nature?
It's not as bad as the nonexistant Human Spirit or Human Vampire creature types. Spirit Bear is a thing. Zombie Goblin, sure. Human Zombie? NO WAY, MENG
but the "or more" ruined it. Daamn.
I want a self mill Undead Alchemist
Δε φοβάμαι τίποτα...
Είμαι Άνεργος.
Grimstringer on Cockatrice, add me if you wanna
But you don't need much setup for sidisi to work - for getting zombies often you just need enough creatures (if you have 20 creatures in a 60 card deck the expected value of found creatures in 3 cards is 1, which would already be enough for Sidisi).
At the same time she herself provides great utility for an alraedy existing deck (there have been quite a lot of lists for the golgari "dredge" deck). And there her abilities are upsides even if she misses creatures.
Especially as they tryd to reduce the different types first, just to input random others.
Naga could and "should" be snakes, the same way as goblins are also different from every plane , VERY different even (Mogg are goblins, kamigawa goblins, mirrodin goblins, still all goblins).
Human is one of the biggest types.
Soldier is another one.
Leonin are still cats, and thats good.
Merfolk are actual Merfolk (no matter the plane).
Elves are actual Elves (no matter the plane).
Goblins are actual Goblins (no matter the plane).
Zombies are still Zombies (no matter the plane), so "ghouls" are still zombies and the frankenstein kind of zombie, is still a zombie.
*They still do vampires, skeletons, spirits and other "undead" types, which could technicly all be "undead", but its good to distinct them.
Birds are still birds, while the "human" form birds could be a creature type for themself.
...
So theres a lot of creature types that dont exist, but "could".
It still only makes sence for the most basic types if you really must distinct them.
Dont just make "naga" for no reason, and Naga should really be snakes, the same way Leonin are Cats.
Its also a kick in the nuts for any Kamigawa "snake" tribe synergy ; and for that reason alone they should be snakes allready.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Should Gorgons and Harpies be Snakes and Birds too?
Animale folk only get a unique name if that name is already well known in fatasy. (Viashino is grandfathered in).
Conversly if they have a well known name they go they get that as their type.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
I'm not offended by you disagreeing with me. I would welcome criticism and discussion if you would be thoughtful and actually engage what I wrote. I was offended by the fact that you disregarded the whole of what I said in order to apodeictically assert an extreme opposing position which itself should not be taken seriously. I'm offended by the fact that any time anyone says anything even slightly nuanced, they get shouted down and derailed by others in this way. This is not good conduct and I shouldn't have to deal with it, so I was confrontational.
In summary: Sidisi, Brood Tyrant dies to removal. That doesn't make it a non-competitive card by any means. First of all, I think it's good as a stand-alone.. but guess what? You can build your deck to have synergy with it! Will it have a home? I can't predict the future, but I can tell you that this is a powerful card.
You're right, you don't need a lot of setup, but you do need to take extra steps in deck construction to ensure she does enough to warrant inclusion. With Elspeth, your main questions are "Am I playing white? Do I expect to be able to cast a 6cc spell?" That's pretty much it. And yeah, while milling yourself may have side benefits like being able to reanimate things and fuel Delve, those are again things that you are trying to setup and then the question becomes "Is the payout high enough to bother? Am I okay with dumping Coursers of Kruphix and other value creatures for 2/2 tokens?" For me, the answer to those inquiries is that it's not worth it and I'd rather just slam Elspeth and reliably shove wave after wave of dudes into the red zone.
If there's a point where Sidisi becomes a thing, then that's great, but I just don't see it as of right now. There could be a card that acts as a catalyst to that exact strategy, but we won't know until the whole set is revealed, obviously
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Doesn't want the same strategy.
Your constant references to Elspeth are completely invalid.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Gorgon and Harpie are old aswell, older than Viashino even.
So they "could" migrate the types, and fix all the old creature types aswell, as they allready did with some of them (as old cards had very unique creature types).
For gorgon its kinda obvisious that they are not snakes and not even remotely look like a snake (they just have snakes on their head ofcourse).
Harpie are also pretty specific, well established creature type.
Naga however is really something they didnt need, they even dont distinguish from the Kamigawa snakes in looks. In what way are they different ? Naga and the Kamigawa Snakes, totally the same.
So i really dont see a reason for "naga" at all.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
The question really isnt if a creature dies to removal, its how much of an impact it is when it doesnt die, and how much removal it can dodge that is commonly played (being big, that is burn and -X/-X effects, most the time 4 thoughness is the magical number to dodge most of that kind of removal).
Baneslayer has the gigantic advantage that you simply win the game if its not killed, even against superior board of the opponent and its the road block for any aggro opponent (Wurmcoil Engine is pretty much the same, just better as it dodges even more removal, and is a even better win option, especially being colorless).
Sidisi effect is for quite a part "random" and the body too small to block/attack reasonable well ; it costs 4 mana and with 3 thoughness dies to pretty much any removal in the format ; combined with a bad mana cost that asks for specific decks AND the problem that the other legend hoses graveyards and is a 4/4 (which really doesnt help Sidisi).
That all combines into a bad result for Sidisi, but people can easily play the card in casual formats and get value out of it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Probably a bit more aquatic in nature?
It's not as bad as the nonexistant Human Spirit or Human Vampire creature types. Spirit Bear is a thing. Zombie Goblin, sure. Human Zombie? NO WAY, MENG
As you can see with Sunforger equipment is attached.