Just looked it up, as I was curious as well. Notables besides Elspeth: Nykthos, Thoughtseize, Nylea, Underworld Cerberus, Hammer of Purphoros, Chained to the Rocks, Curse of the Swine, Daxos of Meletis.
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"The true measure of all heroes is not what they achieve, but who they inspire." —Triumph of Gerrard
I think all of you counting minutes until the start of PAX are being silly. If you managed to wait three months for the start of KTK spoilers, I'm pretty sure you will manage another few days.
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Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
I think all of you counting minutes until the start of PAX are being silly. If you managed to wait three months for the start of KTK spoilers, I'm pretty sure you will manage another few days.
Clearly the words of someone not on the hype train. If you are not stoked, you are in the wrong thread
For the colors, a 3 mana red draw 3 or deal 5 damage is actually pretty decent, especially since red is not known for it's card draw without a discard side effect.
Anyone who tries arguing that Vexing Devil is bad after it wins a tournament goes against what a good card is: If a card wins a tournament, it is by definition a good card, at least, it was in that metagame.
And they were, in 1995. 'Good' is relative. It is one of the reasons that judging cards against past cards is often irrelevant. In the proper metagame, even a 1/1 for R with a drawback might be good enough to see play.
I can't always agree with the logic that if your opponent gets the choice of part of your card ability, it's bad. Fact or Fiction is one of the best blue draws spells of my time, at least, and your opponent gets a choice in that. I'm not saying Browbeat is good, but I wouldn't call it a bad card. In the right deck it won't matter what your opponent picks because you'll be happy with either one.
I invoke my sig! Please, someone, my sig! Its there for a reason.
Browbeat is what it is, in a vacuum more or less. Its worse than a draw 3 for 3, its worse than a 5 burn for 3, and its worse than either of them because the two options generally serve different aims, but a burn deck has a good means of converting cards -> damage to make browbeat serve the same goal either way, and short of mindslaver and mindgames its impossible to manipulate the opponents choice in say the way a lure could work an infiltration lens. All this says is what browbeat is worth in general. Would it be good or bad in context? Browbeat was in the same rotation as fact or fiction. Would it be good if it was reprinted in a much weaker Theroes/Khans standard? Maybe. After all, we just saw desecration demon pull that same trick after tiago and the last vestiges of power creep poofed into thin air.
I hate to contribute to this derailing, but maybe if even one person takes a lesson in game theory and gets a good idea of how to evaluate a mechanic's general utility out of it, its worth it. Plus, it could be quite topical when we discuss whatever cards poop out if any tonight, since keep in mind that good is indeed relative, like our weedwalker above says
I can't always agree with the logic that if your opponent gets the choice of part of your card ability, it's bad. Fact or Fiction is one of the best blue draws spells of my time, at least, and your opponent gets a choice in that. I'm not saying Browbeat is good, but I wouldn't call it a bad card. In the right deck it won't matter what your opponent picks because you'll be happy with either one.
On the relevant topic of spoilers:
I hope everyone is ready to see Sarkhan Vol!
First of with FoF you get the final choice which is huge. FoF also is very consistant, when you play it you know you are going to draw cards. Maybe it will be 4-mana impulse if you need it to be, but it might just as well be opportunity.
Vexing Devil is probably better comparison to Browbeat. It will fairly consistenly do damage to your opponent for one mana. Only reason it is good/ok is because it cheap enough. While Browbeats both sides are good in burn, 3 mana is just too much as you when your opponent let's you draw they would pretty much be dead to any other burn anyways or they are racing you and you don't have time utilize the cards you draw. Browbeat would easy 4-of in burn if it cost RR. But it doesn't
And therein lies the problem with Tribute.
Let me elaborate. If Browbeat cost RR, not only would it be an easy 4-of in burn, it would be flat-out broken. Having worse than the worse of those two effects is very well-costed at 3 mana, but ridiculous at 2.
Now, let's take, say, Snake of the Golden Grove, for example. At 5-mana, it's a good mid/top-end in limited, and pretty solid for a common. If it cost 4, even if it was 2GG, it would either be Obstinate Baloth, or the most aggressively costed green 4-drop ever, especially at common. Similarly good examples are Pharagax Giant, and Flame-Wreathed Phoenix, but really, it applies to every card with tribute (except, perhaps, Fanatic of Xenagos.)
So, how to fix such a problem for constructed? Eliminate variance! Seems easy enough, but it isn't. At the point where you make the opponent's choice insignificant enough for Tribute to not be a risk, the mechanic loses a need to exist.
It's a solid limited mechanic, but it was doomed for constructed from the start.
For what it's worth, the opposite of evergreen is "deciduous" so I suggest we start using that from now on to refer to shroud, banding, islandhome, etc.
[quote from="Creedmoor »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/570115-pax-prime-spoilers-at-7pm-saturday?comment=76"] Anyway, onto the actual topic of spoilers. I'm personally hoping to see some sweet Temur, Azban and Sultai cards. Those are my favourite clans (If you couldn't guess, I'm a fan of green). Hopefully we get to see at least one Khan, maybe two, that would be nice.
I agree 100% haha those are the three I would like to see as well. Here's to hoping they have good mechanics.
Theres a stream on Twitch.tv if you click on the 3rd or 4th right from the starting screen, its got Graham from Loading Ready Run, so maybe its streamed there ?
Being an opponents choice doesn't implicitly make a card bad, it just weights the value of a card in the same way any other drawback would. Its perfectly possible to have cards use that same punisher mechanic choice that would be competitive staples, either well balanced and strong and playable or simply degenerate and overpowered. Ex if browbeat was draw 7 or deal 20 damage, it would plainly be too strong, while at draw 1 or 1 damage its too weak, and therefore a middle ground of balanced/strong exists.
Now it just happens that wizards has historically had a very bad comprehension of how this mechanic works, or maybe a particular disdain for it or maybe an irrational fear of mindslaver shenanigans, and most punisher cards we've seen have been pretty badly balanced on the short end of the stick. Thats just a trend, it doesnt make these cards necessarily bad. For example, siren of the fanged coast is a punisher card, and its awful. As per my sig rule of thumb, its air elemental with a drawback. A pretty big drawback, in that it turns into a 1/1 on an empty board, or might just get you a crappy token. The fact wizards thought that an air elemental was too strong feels too harsh to be intentional balancing even for limited in a power shrunk format, it feels like they just didn't have a good grasp on the mechanic. Or maybe they did, and they are really gung-ho about power shrivel, to the point air elemental is too good for standard and limited at uncommon. I don't know anymore. Same thing with shrike harpy. I mean I can kind of excuse pharagax giant for being common, and a 5/5 for 5 at common is clearly going to do some nasty things in limited, but air elemental too stronk?
Tribute could have been good if they executed it better. MaRo himself said that it was poorly executed. There are definitely some great ways that Tribute could have been done to make it so that it was win/win for the caster, but the designs were all lazy in BNG.
I'm pretty hopeful for Sarkhan. He's one of my favorite Planeswalkers so I'm hoping for something good from him. But I'll probably be happy with just a cool Temur card.
Plus, going from last year, I think we'll get a khan, a sweet reprint, hopefully damnation, and an awesome mythic that'll be my favorite card in the set but everyone will forget about and be bulk in a month.
Where is this info that says the panel is today? On the pax schedule it isn't until Sunday at 1:30.
That's the flavor panel, tonight is the party, they're different things.
EDIT: ThatOneNinja, I didn't see you had already answered that, I'm sorry.
Quote from Roon the Realmless »
Not to derail the derailed thread, but, is there going to be a stream of this party? If so, where can I view it?
Quote from duxstar »
Theres a stream on Twitch.tv if you click on the 3rd or 4th right from the starting screen, its got Graham from Loading Ready Run, so maybe its streamed there ?
To the best of my knowledge there's no streaming. I think it's reasonable that there's no streaming since you need to gain invitation to the party after all...
EDIT: I read there should be people tweeting like Adam Styborski (@the_stybs) and MaRo himself (@maro254).
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Indeed. Part of its mediocre execution lies in the fact it was taking the place of a much deeper mechanic (Monstrosity) which had more resonance in the block, to boot. The other is that a few of the cards were played too safe. It waits to be seen whether or nor Fanatic of Xenagos and Flame-Wreathed Phoenix will be good enough for Standard.
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/greg-haenig-news-previews08302013theros-spoilers-at-pax-prime/
Just looked it up, as I was curious as well. Notables besides Elspeth: Nykthos, Thoughtseize, Nylea, Underworld Cerberus, Hammer of Purphoros, Chained to the Rocks, Curse of the Swine, Daxos of Meletis.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Clearly the words of someone not on the hype train. If you are not stoked, you are in the wrong thread
Side note: I have no idea how to link things
By this rationale, Goblins of the Flarg, Iron Claw Orcs and Dwarven Trader are all good cards. L. O. L.
I can't always agree with the logic that if your opponent gets the choice of part of your card ability, it's bad. Fact or Fiction is one of the best blue draws spells of my time, at least, and your opponent gets a choice in that. I'm not saying Browbeat is good, but I wouldn't call it a bad card. In the right deck it won't matter what your opponent picks because you'll be happy with either one.
On the relevant topic of spoilers:
I hope everyone is ready to see Sarkhan Vol!
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Browbeat is what it is, in a vacuum more or less. Its worse than a draw 3 for 3, its worse than a 5 burn for 3, and its worse than either of them because the two options generally serve different aims, but a burn deck has a good means of converting cards -> damage to make browbeat serve the same goal either way, and short of mindslaver and mindgames its impossible to manipulate the opponents choice in say the way a lure could work an infiltration lens. All this says is what browbeat is worth in general. Would it be good or bad in context? Browbeat was in the same rotation as fact or fiction. Would it be good if it was reprinted in a much weaker Theroes/Khans standard? Maybe. After all, we just saw desecration demon pull that same trick after tiago and the last vestiges of power creep poofed into thin air.
I hate to contribute to this derailing, but maybe if even one person takes a lesson in game theory and gets a good idea of how to evaluate a mechanic's general utility out of it, its worth it. Plus, it could be quite topical when we discuss whatever cards poop out if any tonight, since keep in mind that good is indeed relative, like our weedwalker above says
And therein lies the problem with Tribute.
Let me elaborate. If Browbeat cost RR, not only would it be an easy 4-of in burn, it would be flat-out broken. Having worse than the worse of those two effects is very well-costed at 3 mana, but ridiculous at 2.
Now, let's take, say, Snake of the Golden Grove, for example. At 5-mana, it's a good mid/top-end in limited, and pretty solid for a common. If it cost 4, even if it was 2GG, it would either be Obstinate Baloth, or the most aggressively costed green 4-drop ever, especially at common. Similarly good examples are Pharagax Giant, and Flame-Wreathed Phoenix, but really, it applies to every card with tribute (except, perhaps, Fanatic of Xenagos.)
So, how to fix such a problem for constructed? Eliminate variance! Seems easy enough, but it isn't. At the point where you make the opponent's choice insignificant enough for Tribute to not be a risk, the mechanic loses a need to exist.
It's a solid limited mechanic, but it was doomed for constructed from the start.
Quotes:
I agree 100% haha those are the three I would like to see as well. Here's to hoping they have good mechanics.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
Now it just happens that wizards has historically had a very bad comprehension of how this mechanic works, or maybe a particular disdain for it or maybe an irrational fear of mindslaver shenanigans, and most punisher cards we've seen have been pretty badly balanced on the short end of the stick. Thats just a trend, it doesnt make these cards necessarily bad. For example, siren of the fanged coast is a punisher card, and its awful. As per my sig rule of thumb, its air elemental with a drawback. A pretty big drawback, in that it turns into a 1/1 on an empty board, or might just get you a crappy token. The fact wizards thought that an air elemental was too strong feels too harsh to be intentional balancing even for limited in a power shrunk format, it feels like they just didn't have a good grasp on the mechanic. Or maybe they did, and they are really gung-ho about power shrivel, to the point air elemental is too good for standard and limited at uncommon. I don't know anymore. Same thing with shrike harpy. I mean I can kind of excuse pharagax giant for being common, and a 5/5 for 5 at common is clearly going to do some nasty things in limited, but air elemental too stronk?
That's when the Magic panel is. The *party* is tonight. They are two separate things and both will have spoilers.
Plus, going from last year, I think we'll get a khan, a sweet reprint, hopefully damnation, and an awesome mythic that'll be my favorite card in the set but everyone will forget about and be bulk in a month.
With my luck, the mythic will be Sarkhan.
Jund
Kiki Chord
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Pauper:
Kuldotha Jeskai
EDIT: ThatOneNinja, I didn't see you had already answered that, I'm sorry.
To the best of my knowledge there's no streaming. I think it's reasonable that there's no streaming since you need to gain invitation to the party after all...
EDIT: I read there should be people tweeting like Adam Styborski (@the_stybs) and MaRo himself (@maro254).
yes, about 50 minutes now
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Awwww thanks for the explanation.