WOTC wants the people at the pro tour to be willing to make a commitment to the game. Some people (3 sport athletes) are unable to do so. It does suck for you, but at the same time, it is better for the game overall. The people on the PT should want to commit to being professional players, and some people can't do that. For all the talk about how grinding is bad, it exactly how the greats in others sports become great. They grind. WOTC wants Magic to be more mainstream, and part of that has to be the professional players have to make a commitment. This helps that goal.
I don't think Pro Tour events will suffer because those with insufficient time to devote to the events aren't able to compete. Pro Tour shouldn't be designed for the casual player.
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I don't think Pro Tour events will suffer because those with insufficient time to devote to the events aren't able to compete. Pro Tour shouldn't be designed for the casual player.
Its not about that.
Under these changes... GPs could become an easier way to qualify for the PT then PTQs... and is that what we as a community want?
PTQs as they exist now are important because they attract almost casual players, a large fraction of "pro" players, and everything in between, providing an ideal environment for a day of competitive play and effective card trading. A GP is a much larger commitment, 2-3 days and often in a distant location; a smaller tournament is only worth it for grinding value or for easy prizes. Open tournaments of 100-300 players are the "gathering" element of Magic: the Gathering, and this reform is simply leaving them to independent organizers.
A typical LGS is going to bleed regulars (who are going to play many more PTQs and an increased number of independent tournaments) without necessarily being able to organize its own mini-PTQ.
I don't think Pro Tour events will suffer because those with insufficient time to devote to the events aren't able to compete. Pro Tour shouldn't be designed for the casual player.
Its not about that.
Under these changes... GPs could become an easier way to qualify for the PT then PTQs... and is that what we as a community want?
PTQs as they exist now are important because they attract almost casual players, a large fraction of "pro" players, and everything in between, providing an ideal environment for a day of competitive play and effective card trading. A GP is a much larger commitment, 2-3 days and often in a distant location; a smaller tournament is only worth it for grinding value or for easy prizes. Open tournaments of 100-300 players are the "gathering" element of Magic: the Gathering, and this reform is simply leaving them to independent organizers.
A typical LGS is going to bleed regulars (who are going to play many more PTQs and an increased number of independent tournaments) without necessarily being able to organize its own mini-PTQ.
Umm... LGSs have been running PTQs for almost two years now.
I don't think Pro Tour events will suffer because those with insufficient time to devote to the events aren't able to compete. Pro Tour shouldn't be designed for the casual player.
Its not about that.
Under these changes... GPs could become an easier way to qualify for the PT then PTQs... and is that what we as a community want?
Why is that a bad thing?
GPs traditionally have better prize support. If its also easier to qualify... why bother go to a PPTQ?
I mean, if you have an option of GP or PPTQ you go to GP. That's obvious and has always been true in the past anyway. This didn't change. When your option is PPTQ or nothing, why would you not go?
If your option is PPTQ or nothing, then yes, you'd go. However, local PPTQ or GP across the country becomes an interesting debate now. Before if I had a choice, I'd choose the PTQ because there wasn't a substantial difference in my chance of qualifying for the PT, and plane tickets are expensive. Now, it becomes an interesting choice, especially for players outside of the US, where there isn't much of a price difference.
PPTQ or anything, and I'd go to the other thing. Even if I won I don't have the time or $1k to fly to another country. And no my store isn't large enough to support a $500 return airfare as prize money. Why bother going to a PPTQ if the bar is set so high and expensive that it would be a complete waste of time? I spend a grand at I still have to beat 300 odd people to top 4 before I get any reward.
We used to get 70 odd people a week in our area, many of who had played at a national level. Then they changed who could host events and that dropped to around 30. Then they changed DCI to PWP and now we are lucky if we have 8 for a FMM. The last GPT we had 9 people. With these set of changes, I don't see people here wanting to play constructed at all.
PPTQ or anything, and I'd go to the other thing. Even if I won I don't have the time or $1k to fly to another country. And no my store isn't large enough to support a $500 return airfare as prize money. Why bother going to a PPTQ if the bar is set so high and expensive that it would be a complete waste of time? I spend a grand at I still have to beat 300 odd people to top 4 before I get any reward.
We used to get 70 odd people a week in our area, many of who had played at a national level. Then they changed who could host events and that dropped to around 30. Then they changed DCI to PWP and now we are lucky if we have 8 for a FMM. The last GPT we had 9 people. With these set of changes, I don't see people here wanting to play constructed at all.
The change was not good for APAC and South America, they admitted as such, but this was a big reason for the GP changes that qualify the entire top 8 regardless of size.
Thanks a lot, Wizards. You crushed my dream and a lot of other people's. The only people who actually have a chance of qualifying now are those in the US and Japan (which has an amazing countrywide public transportation system), as well as those who are somehow lucky enough to have a regional PTQ in their area, and the people who actually have a few hundred dollars or an equivalent some of money to spare to fly to a PTQ.
Please don't just assume that because we have an excellent public transportation system that we have an *affordable* transportation system. Even just holding the events in Osaka vs. Tokyo is the difference between being able to afford to go and not. The shinkansen tickets are comparable to airline tickets in price.
No, no. Japan is *not* escaping unscathed, and please do not say so.
Who thinks the USA has a great transportation system? Our systems are generally confined to large cities, and normally a line(s) branch out to some suburbs.
Its not like theres a system where someone from Chicago can travel to Detroit, Indianapolis, Minneapolis or something on a high-speed train in a couple hours. The best we have is Greyhound/Megabus service on busses, where ticket prices are not at all consistent. The times are also mostly inconvenient, which means you either must take a very early 6-8 hour bus ride to arrive in time for a usual? 1PM local time PTQ, or plan an overnight stay. Its one of the things I think a lot of americans wish we had; a high-speed train system that could get you from different regions of the US in a decent time frame.
For example, driving from Cleveland to Chicago is 5 1/2 to 6 hours (plus tolls?), a greyhound/megabus is 6 1/2 - 8 hours. Having a train that could do that would take probably 3 hours or a tad less...but its just not infra-structurally or monetarily possible now.
Who thinks the USA has a great transportation system? Our systems are generally confined to large cities, and normally a line(s) branch out to some suburbs.
I never assumed or said that the US has any sort of good public transportation system. I live in Japan, and I was actually referring to a previous poster who assumed that be we here in Japan *do* have good public transportation that it equated to actually being able to get places. The transportation here is expensive.
Thanks a lot, Wizards. You crushed my dream and a lot of other people's. The only people who actually have a chance of qualifying now are those in the US and Japan (which has an amazing countrywide public transportation system), as well as those who are somehow lucky enough to have a regional PTQ in their area, and the people who actually have a few hundred dollars or an equivalent some of money to spare to fly to a PTQ.
Please don't just assume that because we have an excellent public transportation system that we have an *affordable* transportation system. Even just holding the events in Osaka vs. Tokyo is the difference between being able to afford to go and not. The shinkansen tickets are comparable to airline tickets in price.
No, no. Japan is *not* escaping unscathed, and please do not say so.
Actually, I was an exchange student in Japan last year. The exchange program paid for my Shinkansen tickets though so I have no idea how much single tickets cost. However, given what passes that were good for three weeks cost, I'd assume it's around $200 round trip. So yeah, Japan isn't escaping unscathed, but it's definitely less prohibitive than it is for players in, say, Latin America, where it can cost several times that.
FYI, it's bad for players in the US too. I have multiple major stores in my area, one of which will almost certainly get a regional PTQ, but most people aren't that lucky. Also, as AdamM said, transportation is prohibitively expensive here too, though we do get 16 regional PTQs, which helps.
I agree with your point, though. The new system is terrible. It basically forces people to either commit to spending tons of money on grinding full-time or just play at FNM and the odd GP or PPTQ.
But how is this any different than why people have already been doing? It adds one more, small store-ran event in the steps to a PT invite. I don't think that's too much to ask.
My main concern is how the new PTQ system will effect vendors and stores who relied on the PTQs to buy bulk and sell/trade.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
But how is this any different than why people have already been doing?
It's different because the people who are trying to make it onto the PT or get on the train now have additional expense. Sure the local PTQ is likely going to be marginal in cost but if you win you have to attend a regional where you won't be able to split room and fuel costs. It greatly increases the expense for those who make it to the regional which puts it out of reach of many.
I love how everyone giving the thumbs up to the new system primarily live in the Mid-west and North East. Who gives a ***** about the rest of the Magic playing world, that this effects. Who cares that there is only 3 + 1 Asia proper RPTQ's! Who cares that a great deal of skilled players will simply no longer have the opportunity to play with their peers. Oh, you can't afford to take a weekend off (perhaps a day or two of work) spend a significant chunk of change, get a visa, just for the opportunity to compete again with up to 250. Yeah! These changes are a significant decrease in a lot of peoples ability to compete with their peers simply due to economics. How many people are going to spend 1500$+ to go to these RPTQ's? Even Hall of Famers like LSV would never net EV with this new system if they lived somewhere else than mainland US. It's a big **** you to the rest of the world. Our last PT competitor from Hawai'i top 50'd. That will never happen again under the new system. The new system is GREAT for those all ready established. It makes the PT more caste-like and decreases the ability of new talent making it into the Pro Tour. Instead of increasing the visibility and opportunity, it creates an atmosphere of severe Status-Quo. I feel for the Europeans and Asia proper. As someone who lives in Hawai'i my sympathies go out to everyone in Alaska.
People are not going to drive much over 2 hours for a tournament that they have to win that only qualifies them for another tournament that they will have to top 4/8. It's not economically feasible for most people. There will be plenty of local PPTQs to attend without having to travel, especially in a place like Chicago which probably has 5+ stores and more in Rockford/Springfield.
Springfield is over 3 hours of a drive from Chicago, on a good day. Rockford is 1.5 hours.
I wont be PTQ'ing in Chicago anymore with this change. The EV isn't worth the drive. That's the thing most people neglect, the EV of winning any PTQ before was a trip to the Pro Tour. It was something to get excited about and was worth the travel. Winning a ticket to yet another tournament that you must travel to as well just adds to the loss your going to take to try and get on the wagon. This change might actually strengthen stores in areas with a strong competitive playerbase by keeping them home and possibly running more events at their local store. I know i'm looking at ways now to get my local store a QPTQ.
First of all, they didn't reduce the number of large tourneys, they increased them.
Does golf/tennis say, "wow, we make a lot of money, we should add a major?" Does the Olympics say, "Wow, we're super popular, lets run every two years?"
No, of course they don't. Those type of things are spectacles. The reason they are popular, and pay more, is because there are not as many. That's why you add GPs, not PTs.
you still haven't actually given a reason why they can't increase the number of pro tour events in a given season. waffling on about the olypmics and it being "special" doesn't really mean anything, and while it may feel like you've got a point, it doesn't come across in the post you made.
so like i said; can you give me a good reason why they couldn't legitimately add an extra couple of events to the pro tour roster in a given year.
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I have read every post here and am very happy that even some of our US friends are worried about this system. The fact is that the US has many more active competitive players than anywhere else. Them having more people playing the PT's makes sense. I have no problem with that, as long as other countries at least have a chance of making it as well.
I live in South Africa, which, for some reason, is lumped in the "Europe" region. Anyone that has ever looked at a map of the world will know that South Africa is NOWHERE near Europe. I get that we are the only Magic playing country in Africa, and we needed to be put somewhere, and Europe is in our time zone, so that's where we ended up.
The last GP here was in 2001, so chances are, we're not getting one of those any time soon. We got 1 PTQ a season under the old system. That already meant that a lot of people were inconvenienced by needing to travel sometimes great distances to play in them. Under the new system, no-one has to travel very far for the PPTQ (as long as there are judges available, of course), which is great. However, whoever wins those will then have to - more than likely - within one month, organise visas (which normally take anything between 4 to 6 weeks), hotels, flights (much more expensive when purchasing that close to the travel date), and travel in the designated foreign country. All of that just to stand a tiny chance of qualifying for the PT. I say that this is more than likely because, as I previously stated, we don't get GP's at all, so what are the chances that we will get a RPTQ?
Flights to Europe, when paid for well in advance are about US$800, but that skyrockets to between US$1500 and US$2000 when you need the flight arranged quickly (like, within a month, for instance). On average, Magic players in this country earn the equivalent of between US$2000 and US$3500 a month. Playing Magic in this country is already quite expensive. I just payed the equivalent of US$200 for a box of M15 boosters and do this every time a new set is released. This high cost is because Wizards sends the stock to the regional supplier (in our case, somewhere in Europe), who then distributes (i.e. sells at a profit) to our countrywide supplier, who then distributes (i.e. sells at a profit) to our stores, who then distribute (i.e. sell at a profit) to us, the players. and, of course, there are import duties in Europe and then here for the product. Don't even get me started on buying singles from overseas sites. With the WMCQ's coming up and a Modern PTQ, I estimated that in order for my son (he is 14 and starting to get serious about Magic) and I to play in those tournaments, I would have to fork out the equivalent of US$600 for cards, excluding shipping and import tax.
Under this new system, it would basically impossible for me to attend a RPTQ outside of my own country, which is the most likely scenario. Knowing this, is it worth it for me to even bother playing in the PPTQ? As a player who has been to a Pro event (Worlds 2009) before and would love to again, this feels very bad to me. I really believe that in countries like ours (and I am sure there are many that have similar issues to what I have laid out here), they should have left the system as it was. We weren't overly happy with only having one PTQ a season here, but it's better than none, which is what this new system will basically amount to. I also get that there are areas of the US that are flung far and wide and will also require a great deal of tavel to have a chance, so those areas should be handled the same way. Leave them with a PTQ or 2 a season (based on active player levels) and only implement something like this in the huge cities with hundreds and thousands of players where a PTQ is not a viable way to try to qualify because of the huge numbers of participants. That way, the players in those cities get a better chance to qualify, but the rest of us aren't screwed out of a chance totally...
I've actually changed my mind on this based off of what some more pro-level players I've talked to have said.
The problem with the current PTQs is that there are only two good outcomes - you come in first, or you 0-2 drop. Anything else means you wasted your entire day (and these events are often a LOT of rounds) and didn't secure an invite.
The PPTQs will be a lot smaller, so they should be shorter, and they have the opportunity for someone to go X-2 and still make top 8 given a reasonable number of rounds. Sure, if you win, you then have to go to another tournament, but that one will be again, considerably smaller, and the top four instead of just first place get PT invites.
Sure, there are issues with transportation to the PTQs themselves, especially as they are now more likely to be out of state/country, you'll have fewer friends going, and you won't get your ticket comped. And outside of the US, this problem gets worse. But it's not all gloom and doom.
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FYI, it's bad for players in the US too. I have multiple major stores in my area, one of which will almost certainly get a regional PTQ, but most people aren't that lucky. Also, as AdamM said, transportation is prohibitively expensive here too, though we do get 16 regional PTQs, which helps.
Keep in mind those 16 Regional PTQs are including Canada, how many are Canada likely to get? 2 or 3?
In my opinion, the problem with this change is that it just doesn't work for everywhere, and even in the places it does mostly work, it still fairly iffy. Its really going to depend on how close you are to the Regional PTQ, which is likely to affect attendance in some areas. If it turns out that you need to book flights in order to get to the regional PTQ, at short notice, is it even worth trying to qualify?
First of all, they didn't reduce the number of large tourneys, they increased them.
Does golf/tennis say, "wow, we make a lot of money, we should add a major?" Does the Olympics say, "Wow, we're super popular, lets run every two years?"
No, of course they don't. Those type of things are spectacles. The reason they are popular, and pay more, is because there are not as many. That's why you add GPs, not PTs.
The reason is simple. They're Majors. They're special. It's that simple. The more you add of something the less special it becomes. You don't go to 5.
you still haven't actually given a reason why they can't increase the number of pro tour events in a given season. waffling on about the olypmics and it being "special" doesn't really mean anything, and while it may feel like you've got a point, it doesn't come across in the post you made.
so like i said; can you give me a good reason why they couldn't legitimately add an extra couple of events to the pro tour roster in a given year.
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Its not about that.
Under these changes... GPs could become an easier way to qualify for the PT then PTQs... and is that what we as a community want?
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A typical LGS is going to bleed regulars (who are going to play many more PTQs and an increased number of independent tournaments) without necessarily being able to organize its own mini-PTQ.
Why is that a bad thing?
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Umm... LGSs have been running PTQs for almost two years now.
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GPs traditionally have better prize support. If its also easier to qualify... why bother go to a PPTQ?
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We used to get 70 odd people a week in our area, many of who had played at a national level. Then they changed who could host events and that dropped to around 30. Then they changed DCI to PWP and now we are lucky if we have 8 for a FMM. The last GPT we had 9 people. With these set of changes, I don't see people here wanting to play constructed at all.
The change was not good for APAC and South America, they admitted as such, but this was a big reason for the GP changes that qualify the entire top 8 regardless of size.
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Please don't just assume that because we have an excellent public transportation system that we have an *affordable* transportation system. Even just holding the events in Osaka vs. Tokyo is the difference between being able to afford to go and not. The shinkansen tickets are comparable to airline tickets in price.
No, no. Japan is *not* escaping unscathed, and please do not say so.
Its not like theres a system where someone from Chicago can travel to Detroit, Indianapolis, Minneapolis or something on a high-speed train in a couple hours. The best we have is Greyhound/Megabus service on busses, where ticket prices are not at all consistent. The times are also mostly inconvenient, which means you either must take a very early 6-8 hour bus ride to arrive in time for a usual? 1PM local time PTQ, or plan an overnight stay. Its one of the things I think a lot of americans wish we had; a high-speed train system that could get you from different regions of the US in a decent time frame.
For example, driving from Cleveland to Chicago is 5 1/2 to 6 hours (plus tolls?), a greyhound/megabus is 6 1/2 - 8 hours. Having a train that could do that would take probably 3 hours or a tad less...but its just not infra-structurally or monetarily possible now.
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I never assumed or said that the US has any sort of good public transportation system. I live in Japan, and I was actually referring to a previous poster who assumed that be we here in Japan *do* have good public transportation that it equated to actually being able to get places. The transportation here is expensive.
Actually, I was an exchange student in Japan last year. The exchange program paid for my Shinkansen tickets though so I have no idea how much single tickets cost. However, given what passes that were good for three weeks cost, I'd assume it's around $200 round trip. So yeah, Japan isn't escaping unscathed, but it's definitely less prohibitive than it is for players in, say, Latin America, where it can cost several times that.
FYI, it's bad for players in the US too. I have multiple major stores in my area, one of which will almost certainly get a regional PTQ, but most people aren't that lucky. Also, as AdamM said, transportation is prohibitively expensive here too, though we do get 16 regional PTQs, which helps.
I agree with your point, though. The new system is terrible. It basically forces people to either commit to spending tons of money on grinding full-time or just play at FNM and the odd GP or PPTQ.
My main concern is how the new PTQ system will effect vendors and stores who relied on the PTQs to buy bulk and sell/trade.
It's different because the people who are trying to make it onto the PT or get on the train now have additional expense. Sure the local PTQ is likely going to be marginal in cost but if you win you have to attend a regional where you won't be able to split room and fuel costs. It greatly increases the expense for those who make it to the regional which puts it out of reach of many.
Springfield is over 3 hours of a drive from Chicago, on a good day. Rockford is 1.5 hours.
I wont be PTQ'ing in Chicago anymore with this change. The EV isn't worth the drive. That's the thing most people neglect, the EV of winning any PTQ before was a trip to the Pro Tour. It was something to get excited about and was worth the travel. Winning a ticket to yet another tournament that you must travel to as well just adds to the loss your going to take to try and get on the wagon. This change might actually strengthen stores in areas with a strong competitive playerbase by keeping them home and possibly running more events at their local store. I know i'm looking at ways now to get my local store a QPTQ.
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you still haven't actually given a reason why they can't increase the number of pro tour events in a given season. waffling on about the olypmics and it being "special" doesn't really mean anything, and while it may feel like you've got a point, it doesn't come across in the post you made.
so like i said; can you give me a good reason why they couldn't legitimately add an extra couple of events to the pro tour roster in a given year.
I live in South Africa, which, for some reason, is lumped in the "Europe" region. Anyone that has ever looked at a map of the world will know that South Africa is NOWHERE near Europe. I get that we are the only Magic playing country in Africa, and we needed to be put somewhere, and Europe is in our time zone, so that's where we ended up.
The last GP here was in 2001, so chances are, we're not getting one of those any time soon. We got 1 PTQ a season under the old system. That already meant that a lot of people were inconvenienced by needing to travel sometimes great distances to play in them. Under the new system, no-one has to travel very far for the PPTQ (as long as there are judges available, of course), which is great. However, whoever wins those will then have to - more than likely - within one month, organise visas (which normally take anything between 4 to 6 weeks), hotels, flights (much more expensive when purchasing that close to the travel date), and travel in the designated foreign country. All of that just to stand a tiny chance of qualifying for the PT. I say that this is more than likely because, as I previously stated, we don't get GP's at all, so what are the chances that we will get a RPTQ?
Flights to Europe, when paid for well in advance are about US$800, but that skyrockets to between US$1500 and US$2000 when you need the flight arranged quickly (like, within a month, for instance). On average, Magic players in this country earn the equivalent of between US$2000 and US$3500 a month. Playing Magic in this country is already quite expensive. I just payed the equivalent of US$200 for a box of M15 boosters and do this every time a new set is released. This high cost is because Wizards sends the stock to the regional supplier (in our case, somewhere in Europe), who then distributes (i.e. sells at a profit) to our countrywide supplier, who then distributes (i.e. sells at a profit) to our stores, who then distribute (i.e. sell at a profit) to us, the players. and, of course, there are import duties in Europe and then here for the product. Don't even get me started on buying singles from overseas sites. With the WMCQ's coming up and a Modern PTQ, I estimated that in order for my son (he is 14 and starting to get serious about Magic) and I to play in those tournaments, I would have to fork out the equivalent of US$600 for cards, excluding shipping and import tax.
Under this new system, it would basically impossible for me to attend a RPTQ outside of my own country, which is the most likely scenario. Knowing this, is it worth it for me to even bother playing in the PPTQ? As a player who has been to a Pro event (Worlds 2009) before and would love to again, this feels very bad to me. I really believe that in countries like ours (and I am sure there are many that have similar issues to what I have laid out here), they should have left the system as it was. We weren't overly happy with only having one PTQ a season here, but it's better than none, which is what this new system will basically amount to. I also get that there are areas of the US that are flung far and wide and will also require a great deal of tavel to have a chance, so those areas should be handled the same way. Leave them with a PTQ or 2 a season (based on active player levels) and only implement something like this in the huge cities with hundreds and thousands of players where a PTQ is not a viable way to try to qualify because of the huge numbers of participants. That way, the players in those cities get a better chance to qualify, but the rest of us aren't screwed out of a chance totally...
The problem with the current PTQs is that there are only two good outcomes - you come in first, or you 0-2 drop. Anything else means you wasted your entire day (and these events are often a LOT of rounds) and didn't secure an invite.
The PPTQs will be a lot smaller, so they should be shorter, and they have the opportunity for someone to go X-2 and still make top 8 given a reasonable number of rounds. Sure, if you win, you then have to go to another tournament, but that one will be again, considerably smaller, and the top four instead of just first place get PT invites.
Sure, there are issues with transportation to the PTQs themselves, especially as they are now more likely to be out of state/country, you'll have fewer friends going, and you won't get your ticket comped. And outside of the US, this problem gets worse. But it's not all gloom and doom.
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Keep in mind those 16 Regional PTQs are including Canada, how many are Canada likely to get? 2 or 3?
In my opinion, the problem with this change is that it just doesn't work for everywhere, and even in the places it does mostly work, it still fairly iffy. Its really going to depend on how close you are to the Regional PTQ, which is likely to affect attendance in some areas. If it turns out that you need to book flights in order to get to the regional PTQ, at short notice, is it even worth trying to qualify?
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