I thought maybe it could be fun to do some more speculation on this now that we know there will be a wedge-theme.
What we know is mostly from the Making Mana-article published by Sam Stoddard on June 26th. He says that there is a land cycle in Khans of Tarkir (and that it is not the shocklands).
In the early development of M2015, the Innistrad Checklands were in.
This lead to some problems, elaborated on in this quote:
Quote from Sam Stoddard »
Between the scry lands and the Innistrad lands, we found that when we rotated Return to Ravnica, too many lands were entering the battlefield tapped, and it was again having a negative impact on the aggressive decks. Making sure that allied and enemy decks both work in Standard doesn't always mean that the lands have to be the same, just that they are about comparable for decks. So with one cycle of lands that could be guaranteed to produce colored mana on turn one leaving (the shock lands), we needed to replace them with another cycle that could produce that mana on turn one. The Innistrad check lands just didn't do that, even if the mana worked perfectly with the Ravnica duals. The pain lands, however, did.
So the land-cycle in KTK almost certainly does not have basic land types.
Does the land-cycle in KTK enter the battlefield tapped? It has been speculated either way. Since the painlands were needed for guaranteed untapped lands, this could indicate that the KTK lands always (or almost always) enters the battlefield tapped.
However, what would this do to the balance of available lands between colour-pairs and available strategies? Will only enemy colour-pairs be viable for aggro as only they have access to enters-the-battlefield-untapped-lands?
So some people suggested that for this reason, the KTK lands will also be entering the battlefield untapped, and that only the temples will enter the battlefield tapped.
And now: There is a wedge sub-theme. What does that mean? Will we be getting wedge-trilands (Like Arcane Sanctum)?
Will the wedge trilands be the only lands, or will there also be tri-fetchlands like Bant Panorama?
Now, we also know that the block is not a wedge-block; it is only the first set that has a wedge-theme. So how would a cycle started in KTK be finished later on?
Just to start with some guesses:
-We will be getting the wedge taplands at uncommon or perhaps even common (they have stated that they thought colour-fixing in original Alara was lacking for limited).
-We will be getting 5 allied-coloured duals at rare. This cycle will be completed in Louie.
EDIT: I meant to post this in speculation. Mods, feel free to move.
we have mana confluence and the painlands - i think it's almost a sure bet that we will get wedge colored trilands like arcane sanctum. that's my prediction anyway.
I'd say that wedge taplands seem likely, could be concepted as some special places for each clan.
I also wonder if we could get a cycle of clan halls or centers, lands with 3-color activations similar to things like Ravnica guild halls or the Innistrad cycle...
Thing with just wedge ETB tapped trilands is, how do they balance mana i standard and block?
There would be wedge trilands + enemy painlands.
Would they print the shards trilands in Louie to balance block constructed?
A clue could be in the whole "Wedges not centered on the enemy-colour"-thing. Perhaps the events in the second set causes there to be some shift in the colour-alignment of the tribes? I.e. the white centered tribe goes from WBG to WRG, and then they print the Shards-trilands. The trilands after all have generic names that could fit on any plane. (I also suspect that the shard trilands if printed will have generic names for this reason).
Since they usually print lands in complete cycles now, I'm guessing we will get the allied painlands and some uncommon wedge tapland. No fetches, that's for sure
Pretty sure they won't complete the painlands, since originally the painlands were not in M2015, but they were introduced due to how the checklands played with the KTK-lands.
Since they usually print lands in complete cycles now, I'm guessing we will get the allied painlands and some uncommon wedge tapland. No fetches, that's for sure
They only print lands in complete cycles within blocks. And the allied painlands can't be reprinted in Khans of Tarkir because Adarkar Wastes and Karplusan Forest are both locations on Dominaria.
-We will be getting the wedge taplands at uncommon or perhaps even common (they have stated that they thought colour-fixing in original Alara was lacking for limited).
Alara was the first of its kind in that is was pretty much entirely a gold block. Khans is not only not an entirely Gold Block, but each of the Clans is based around a single color in a way that Alara probably doesn't properly compare to. I think if we do see Wedge taplands, uncommon is the logical place for them, due to Khans probably lesser multicolor requirements.
That said, I agree that Wedge Taplands are a very likely possibility. Easy on design/dev, and Stoddard said that "too many" lands were entering tapped. With the painlands and Mana Confluence, 2 color aggro builds should still be viable even if the Tarkir cycle enters tapped.
I'm still hoping for a more pushed dual cycle for Modern's sake, as right now decks without fastlands and other such duals make certain decks have sub-par manabases. A 10 land, reasonably pushed cycle that doesn't enter tapped at least 50% of the time could help that immensely.
Cranial: They could do that, but then it actually makes nonbasic lands that lack basic land types better than the corresponding others. (Specifically, it also discourages basic lands.)
Another possibility is if they 'finish' the cycle they started with Murmuring Bosk. This also would work with the 'basic land types' cards printed recently.
Another possibility is if they 'finish' the cycle they started with Murmuring Bosk. This also would work with the 'basic land types' cards printed recently.
They would have to be idiots to print those when we already have painlands in Standard.
Also, the Tribal aspect is problematic, as I doubt they want to create new versions for any of the tribes that aren't appearing in Khans, and they would need too, as they have to print 10 land cycles in Blocks so as to make sure the mana works in Block Constructed.
Magus: I meant more 'land with one basic land type that can tap for a mana of two other colors in a wedge by taking 1'. No Tribal interactions needed. If you want a way for them to enter untapped, just replace the Tribal requirement on the Bosk with revealing a card of the Clan's major Color/land's basic land type.
I think that a Standard environment where playing multiple colors had an obvious cost would be quite interesting, personally.
What do we know about this land cycle? Well we know that standard will end up with ally and enemy colours having parity. The only problem is that enemy getting untapped lands and ally getting tapped lands will mean only enemy decks will be aggro. Which is weird.
Magus: I meant more 'land with one basic land type that can tap for a mana of two other colors in a wedge by taking 1'. No Tribal interactions needed. If you want a way for them to enter untapped, just replace the Tribal requirement on the Bosk with revealing a card of the Clan's major Color/land's basic land type.
I think that a Standard environment where playing multiple colors had an obvious cost would be quite interesting, personally.
Well, that would certainly play better with Theros than what I thought you were talking about.
Its certainly possible, but I don't think so. The painlands are already in M15, and I can't see them doing something that close to them in literally the next set.
The Fastlands all have Mirrodin sounding names (Seachrome Coast, etc) and since they want to print all 10 and won't want to make 5 new functional reprints, I think those don't fit.
Filterlands have somewhat the same problem, and also lose a lot of power when they don't have hybrid mana costs to work with. Ravnica had hybrid costs to support Devotion, so they probably won't repeat it, and I can't see a 3 color set using hybrid mana.
Keep in mind that wedge is only some kind of subtheme. Only the first set will be about that, so we don't necessarily need wedge-colored lands. Alara was different, it was almost everything about the shards, was multicolor intensive.
True, but the lessons about the multicolored costs being hard on a limited environment that they learned in Alara still apply. Ravnica had access to hybrid mana to make casting cards easier, and still had multiple cycles of spells (Keyrunes, Cluestones) as well as individual cards like Chromatic Lantern dedicated to fixing mana despite having not a single 3 color card. They were worried that we wouldn't be able to cast the heavier color costs without that support, and in many cases they were right, especially for factions like Boros who just didn't have any ramp or fixing inherent to their colors. A 3 color block takes those problems that show up in a 2 color block and turns them up even more, except this time they can't spread the color fixing out across the whole block like they did with Ravnica, since the Wedge theme is exclusive to Khans. Having 5 Wedge taplands at uncommon is a very good start for solving that problem, and the originals from Alara are very popular EDH lands, especially for players on a budget due to their uncommon rarity.
I hope they print the wedge tri-land taplands (Seaside Citadel cycle), and something that enters the battlefield untapped in ally colors to go along with the enemy color painlands of M15, which they'll finish the cycle of with later sets of the block, for the sake of block constructed, even if that winds up slightly favoring enemy colors in Standard. Maybe they'll also print the shard tri-land taplands later on in the block to finish that cycle as well, in parts of the block that aren't 'wedge' based, since it sounds like only the first set will be wedge themed. This would give us a nice selection of lands for standard. If they lowered the tri-land taplands to common it might also help limited and be interesting in pauper, although it could hurt as well, they'd have to playtest it.
Of course, I'd rather have the onslaught fetches in the first set than a new land cycle, and a full set of fetches over the block, than any new rare land, for the sake of Modern. But I could actually see them pulling off the fast-lands if they are creative with the flavor text and imagery, they can avoid the relatively Mirrodin/Metal world specific hints with things like valleys full of copper mines and shiny looking coastlines, and I wouldn't mind them completing that cycle either later on in the block.
Based on what they've said though, I'm expecting a brand-new land cycle that usually comes into play untapped (or always does) in ally colors, for the rare land cycle.
They should reprint the Mirage fetches in KTK, then finish the cycle with opposing color fetches of the same style in the third set. All at uncommon of course.
They are certainly neither to powerful for Standard and Modern, nor are they weak cards (under appreciated? Sure, but not weak).
Realistically though, we will likely get an uncommon cycle of five tri-colored lands of some sort. As well as a rare 10 land cycle spread over the entire block, a single rare five color land, and a common mana fixing land similar to Terramorphic Expanse or Shimmering Grotto.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
i think they will give us either a filter land and not much more, or 5 filter lands which require the main clan color and produce 1 of the two other colors, since each is centered around 1 color. and some artifact that adds any color.
Keep in mind that wedge is only some kind of subtheme. Only the first set will be about that, so we don't necessarily need wedge-colored lands. Alara was different, it was almost everything about the shards, was multicolor intensive. We can get simple lands in the lines of taplands with another condition. I doubt we will be seeing filterlands though, they feel weird in a block that is not focused on mana symbols or multicolored.
It should be noted that Wedge trilands don't disclude another cycle, particularly at rare. The shard trilands were uncommon, after all, and I wouldn't doubt if they decided to add two cycles, one at uncommon and one at rare.
lets also remember that fetch lands don't typically class as multi-coloured lands in the design frame. they and the tapped life gain cycle in zendikar, such as akoum refuge.
even if khans of tarkir is a wedged SET as opposed to a wedge block, that still means that the set needs enough support for wedge colours in a limited setting. from a design space and simplicity, the tri-colour tap lands seem most reasonable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard:
Nothing Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
even if khans of tarkir is a wedged SET as opposed to a wedge block, that still means that the set needs enough support for wedge colours in a limited setting. from a design space and simplicity, the tri-colour tap lands seem most reasonable.
lets also remember that fetch lands don't typically class as multi-coloured lands in the design frame. they and the tapped life gain cycle in zendikar, such as akoum refuge.
even if khans of tarkir is a wedged SET as opposed to a wedge block, that still means that the set needs enough support for wedge colours in a limited setting. from a design space and simplicity, the tri-colour tap lands seem most reasonable.
I think the tri-lands are obvious, but given that they will likely be uncommon it still doesn't say much about a rare dual cycle. Part of the need for mana fixing is Block Constructed, after all, and a single enters-the-battlefield tapped option may not be enough to support even a moderate wedge slant in design. I really would assume there is going to be more than just the trilands. It's a large set, after all, and can afford slots open to other lands in the rare slot.
What we know is mostly from the Making Mana-article published by Sam Stoddard on June 26th. He says that there is a land cycle in Khans of Tarkir (and that it is not the shocklands).
In the early development of M2015, the Innistrad Checklands were in.
This lead to some problems, elaborated on in this quote:
So the land-cycle in KTK almost certainly does not have basic land types.
Does the land-cycle in KTK enter the battlefield tapped? It has been speculated either way. Since the painlands were needed for guaranteed untapped lands, this could indicate that the KTK lands always (or almost always) enters the battlefield tapped.
However, what would this do to the balance of available lands between colour-pairs and available strategies? Will only enemy colour-pairs be viable for aggro as only they have access to enters-the-battlefield-untapped-lands?
So some people suggested that for this reason, the KTK lands will also be entering the battlefield untapped, and that only the temples will enter the battlefield tapped.
And now: There is a wedge sub-theme. What does that mean? Will we be getting wedge-trilands (Like Arcane Sanctum)?
Will the wedge trilands be the only lands, or will there also be tri-fetchlands like Bant Panorama?
Now, we also know that the block is not a wedge-block; it is only the first set that has a wedge-theme. So how would a cycle started in KTK be finished later on?
Just to start with some guesses:
-We will be getting the wedge taplands at uncommon or perhaps even common (they have stated that they thought colour-fixing in original Alara was lacking for limited).
-We will be getting 5 allied-coloured duals at rare. This cycle will be completed in Louie.
EDIT: I meant to post this in speculation. Mods, feel free to move.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I also wonder if we could get a cycle of clan halls or centers, lands with 3-color activations similar to things like Ravnica guild halls or the Innistrad cycle...
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
There would be wedge trilands + enemy painlands.
Would they print the shards trilands in Louie to balance block constructed?
A clue could be in the whole "Wedges not centered on the enemy-colour"-thing. Perhaps the events in the second set causes there to be some shift in the colour-alignment of the tribes? I.e. the white centered tribe goes from WBG to WRG, and then they print the Shards-trilands. The trilands after all have generic names that could fit on any plane. (I also suspect that the shard trilands if printed will have generic names for this reason).
EDIT:
Pretty sure they won't complete the painlands, since originally the painlands were not in M2015, but they were introduced due to how the checklands played with the KTK-lands.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Yeah, I missed your edit at the bottom of your post as well. Sorry.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
They only print lands in complete cycles within blocks. And the allied painlands can't be reprinted in Khans of Tarkir because Adarkar Wastes and Karplusan Forest are both locations on Dominaria.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Alara was the first of its kind in that is was pretty much entirely a gold block. Khans is not only not an entirely Gold Block, but each of the Clans is based around a single color in a way that Alara probably doesn't properly compare to. I think if we do see Wedge taplands, uncommon is the logical place for them, due to Khans probably lesser multicolor requirements.
That said, I agree that Wedge Taplands are a very likely possibility. Easy on design/dev, and Stoddard said that "too many" lands were entering tapped. With the painlands and Mana Confluence, 2 color aggro builds should still be viable even if the Tarkir cycle enters tapped.
I'm still hoping for a more pushed dual cycle for Modern's sake, as right now decks without fastlands and other such duals make certain decks have sub-par manabases. A 10 land, reasonably pushed cycle that doesn't enter tapped at least 50% of the time could help that immensely.
such as it enter battlefield tap unless you control no swamp or no plains
Cranial: They could do that, but then it actually makes nonbasic lands that lack basic land types better than the corresponding others. (Specifically, it also discourages basic lands.)
Another possibility is if they 'finish' the cycle they started with Murmuring Bosk. This also would work with the 'basic land types' cards printed recently.
They would have to be idiots to print those when we already have painlands in Standard.
Also, the Tribal aspect is problematic, as I doubt they want to create new versions for any of the tribes that aren't appearing in Khans, and they would need too, as they have to print 10 land cycles in Blocks so as to make sure the mana works in Block Constructed.
I think that a Standard environment where playing multiple colors had an obvious cost would be quite interesting, personally.
Well, that would certainly play better with Theros than what I thought you were talking about.
Its certainly possible, but I don't think so. The painlands are already in M15, and I can't see them doing something that close to them in literally the next set.
The Fastlands all have Mirrodin sounding names (Seachrome Coast, etc) and since they want to print all 10 and won't want to make 5 new functional reprints, I think those don't fit.
Filterlands have somewhat the same problem, and also lose a lot of power when they don't have hybrid mana costs to work with. Ravnica had hybrid costs to support Devotion, so they probably won't repeat it, and I can't see a 3 color set using hybrid mana.
True, but the lessons about the multicolored costs being hard on a limited environment that they learned in Alara still apply. Ravnica had access to hybrid mana to make casting cards easier, and still had multiple cycles of spells (Keyrunes, Cluestones) as well as individual cards like Chromatic Lantern dedicated to fixing mana despite having not a single 3 color card. They were worried that we wouldn't be able to cast the heavier color costs without that support, and in many cases they were right, especially for factions like Boros who just didn't have any ramp or fixing inherent to their colors. A 3 color block takes those problems that show up in a 2 color block and turns them up even more, except this time they can't spread the color fixing out across the whole block like they did with Ravnica, since the Wedge theme is exclusive to Khans. Having 5 Wedge taplands at uncommon is a very good start for solving that problem, and the originals from Alara are very popular EDH lands, especially for players on a budget due to their uncommon rarity.
Of course, I'd rather have the onslaught fetches in the first set than a new land cycle, and a full set of fetches over the block, than any new rare land, for the sake of Modern. But I could actually see them pulling off the fast-lands if they are creative with the flavor text and imagery, they can avoid the relatively Mirrodin/Metal world specific hints with things like valleys full of copper mines and shiny looking coastlines, and I wouldn't mind them completing that cycle either later on in the block.
Based on what they've said though, I'm expecting a brand-new land cycle that usually comes into play untapped (or always does) in ally colors, for the rare land cycle.
They are certainly neither to powerful for Standard and Modern, nor are they weak cards (under appreciated? Sure, but not weak).
Realistically though, we will likely get an uncommon cycle of five tri-colored lands of some sort. As well as a rare 10 land cycle spread over the entire block, a single rare five color land, and a common mana fixing land similar to Terramorphic Expanse or Shimmering Grotto.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
It should be noted that Wedge trilands don't disclude another cycle, particularly at rare. The shard trilands were uncommon, after all, and I wouldn't doubt if they decided to add two cycles, one at uncommon and one at rare.
even if khans of tarkir is a wedged SET as opposed to a wedge block, that still means that the set needs enough support for wedge colours in a limited setting. from a design space and simplicity, the tri-colour tap lands seem most reasonable.
Nothing
Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial
EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
I think the tri-lands are obvious, but given that they will likely be uncommon it still doesn't say much about a rare dual cycle. Part of the need for mana fixing is Block Constructed, after all, and a single enters-the-battlefield tapped option may not be enough to support even a moderate wedge slant in design. I really would assume there is going to be more than just the trilands. It's a large set, after all, and can afford slots open to other lands in the rare slot.
probably uncommon. i wouldn't want them to be at common unless they were lands that made any color, like a fetch or filter.