Chain Veil is stupefyingly bad. Look at it this way - Suppose your opponent has a theoretical card in play that says "Loyalty abilities cost an additional 4 to activate". Even if you had a planeswalker in play, you probably wouldn't use it unless it was a very powerful one, or you had nothing better to do with the mana. This is because most planeswalker abilities aren't worth 4 mana. The ones that are are going to be minus abilities that have to be saved up for by activating other, weaker abilities, and those weaker abilities aren't worth 4 mana. So, in general, you're not going to want to pay 4 to activate a planeswalker. It's not usually worth it.
So, given the above, let's look at this card. You're spending a card and 4 mana up front to gain the option to do something you probably don't want to do. Even before considering the life loss drawback, this is just bad. It does get better if you have multiple planeswalkers in play, as the 4 you pay lets you activate all of them. Even then, it's not super. A card that needs multiple planeswalkers just to be halfway decent is not something you want to run.
Unplayable in standard, unplayable in EDH, unplayable everywhere. If your deck runs a dozen planeswalkers you are still better off without this card in it.
Why the heck is Kurkesh an OGRE, when they keep telling us all the time that the Onakke were a race of ancient TROLLS?
This is same as Doug suddenly saying there's a recent lack of Eldrazi Titan sightings. When they supposedly have ceaseless hunger and would not stop till the world's finished.
They rewrite stories at magic fans' expenses. Me no likey...
I'm definitely taking their future story telling with a pinch of salt from now onwards. It seems they can change anything at will whenever they feel like it. Definitely loose.
I would say that Chain Veil is at the same level than the Strionic Resonator we've seen last year, something with probably enough potential to make scary things, but offset by the variable conditions and resource management inherent to Magic. Like the Resonator, this card works if you draw it, if you can stabilize your planeswalkers, if you can afford the mana just to operate it, in short if things go good enough. And I guess competitive players shun those aspects when they build their decks.
That is the hardest part for me in EDH games. PWs are always the first target for ANY creature on the table. They are "politically correct" targets to remove and all in the table are always in favour of it.
This is especially nasty when I try to play my No-creatures,PW's-only -deck.
If I had three PW's on the table, I think I would like Veil as well. 4+4 (or even 4 and next round 4) is still quite a hefty price to pay when I try to put out other PW's and also clear the board etc.
Chain Veil is stupefyingly bad. Look at it this way - Suppose your opponent has a theoretical card in play that says "Loyalty abilities cost an additional 4 to activate". Even if you had a planeswalker in play, you probably wouldn't use it unless it was a very powerful one, or you had nothing better to do with the mana. This is because most planeswalker abilities aren't worth 4 mana. The ones that are are going to be minus abilities that have to be saved up for by activating other, weaker abilities, and those weaker abilities aren't worth 4 mana. So, in general, you're not going to want to pay 4 to activate a planeswalker. It's not usually worth it.
So, given the above, let's look at this card. You're spending a card and 4 mana up front to gain the option to do something you probably don't want to do. Even before considering the life loss drawback, this is just bad. It does get better if you have multiple planeswalkers in play, as the 4 you pay lets you activate all of them. Even then, it's not super. A card that needs multiple planeswalkers just to be halfway decent is not something you want to run.
Unplayable in standard, unplayable in EDH, unplayable everywhere. If your deck runs a dozen planeswalkers you are still better off without this card in it.
After getting really psyched about this card for a bit, I've calmed down and see that you and others are right. It really does fundamentally suck. You'd have to have 2-3 PWs out to make it even remotely worth it.
Some would say that it's a repeatable effect and repeatable effects inherently cost more, but PWs are hardly sticking around forever these days, so it's not as though you are guaranteed a whole bunch of activations.
Can we use the artifact´s hability in his/her turn?
If you use it on the opponent's turn, then it wont do anything since the Planewalker abilities are still sorcery speed.
The Veil allows you to use your planewalker abilities again, as if they haven't been used before that on the current turn. So it is somewhat a reset of the once per turn rule.
I think wizards is simply putting out a possibility that they might print cards in the future that only work if you control planeswalkers. Both Ajani, the Steadfast and this are tests to see the community's response to effects like these.
I think it should just have been either 2 or B to activate. Doesn't matter to me though - I'm excited to see it finally as a card AND with that amazing art to boot. I think it has major potential though. I like that you could +1 a Planswalker and bomb it that turn or better, potentially save one after using the ultimate because of another +1 the same turn.
I'm sorry, but the veil is far from bad, RUG super friends getting infinite activations could be very real.
This reminds me of the infinite combo with Havengul Lich, Heartless Summoning and Perilous Myr which got some excited. Yes, it can work, but it's still a 3+ pieces combo that requires a lot of "if" and easily subject to disruption.
The veil looks like super flavorful card and while it is somewaht overcosted for standard afaik someone somewhere may find a way to break it.
One thing that comes to mind is using it with Nissa + Ajani/another PW then if you have the 4 forests you basically get to activate it for free. Sounds clunky tho..
The more I look at it, the worse Chain Veil is seeming-
I love that they printed a card with this effect,
but it's very bad outside of Superfriends,
and there, it's very arguably worse than Contagion Engine
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
we just had a block for flavor, and it was one of the most boring/unimpactful of all time. playable cards plz
How can you say Theros block was unimpactful when all the tier 1 decks of RtR-THS standard, aside from UW control, are driven by it?
As for the cards spoiled today, Chain Veil is a bulk mythic and the ogre is somewhat interesting (i.e. with Hammer of Purphoros) but 4 mana slot is always super competitive and likely means this card won't see play.
i don't know man, nightveil specter, pack rat, underworld connections, desecration demon all came from theros right?
@topic:
Wow, the chain veil is terrible. Why not just play another planeswalker instead, and save you the activation cost. I'd be very surprised if it saw play in standard. In modern that's completely out of the question.
Combined w/ that artifact and that nasty Ogre Spirit,two ultimates can be triggered. Naaaasty...
no, you can't, because the - loyalty effect still apply
so when you cast your ult the second time, if you don't have the required loyalty, you can't activated it.
I think he wants to use the Ogre to copy the ultimate.
yes i know,
Ogre copying chain veil abilities,
and chain veil abilities is you use your PW abilities
e.g: you have Garruk, Apex Predator on board with 8 loyalty.
then you activate +1: put 3/3 black beast token with deathtouch > loyalty now 9
then you activate chain veil + kurkesh, onakke ancient
what happen is you can activate your Garruk 2 more times, right ?
Garruk use ultimate you put emblem on your opponent, and garruk loyalty now on 1
then, Garruk use ultimate again with only 1 loyalty remain ?
Since the activated abilities of planeswalkers can only be activated at sorcery speed there's no profitable interaction with Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, The Chain Veil and planeswalkers.
Had you been able to activate planeswalker abilities after the first activation of The Chain Veil, but before the second, resolved it should have worked with the current wording. A better example might be
Activating your planeswalkers.
Activating The Chain Veil.
Activating your planeswalkers again.
Untapping The Chain Veil with Voltaic Key.
Activating The Chain Veil again.
Activating your planeswalkers a third time.
Mana-intensive to be sure but it should work with the wording used on The Chain Veil.
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
So, one or two cards from theros vs four plus from RTR.
Maybe by impactful and tier one you mean terrible?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Combined w/ that artifact and that nasty Ogre Spirit,two ultimates can be triggered. Naaaasty...
no, you can't, because the - loyalty effect still apply
so when you cast your ult the second time, if you don't have the required loyalty, you can't activated it.
I think he wants to use the Ogre to copy the ultimate.
yes i know,
Ogre copying chain veil abilities,
and chain veil abilities is you use your PW abilities
e.g: you have Garruk, Apex Predator on board with 8 loyalty.
then you activate +1: put 3/3 black beast token with deathtouch > loyalty now 9
then you activate chain veil + kurkesh, onakke ancient
what happen is you can activate your Garruk 2 more times, right ?
Garruk use ultimate you put emblem on your opponent, and garruk loyalty now on 1
then, Garruk use ultimate again with only 1 loyalty remain ?
i hope it's clear
Ah, didn't notice that Kurkesh only works on abilities of artifacts. So to directly copy the ultimate, you'd need to add something like Liquimetal Coating.
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Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Also, the Chain Veil is just nutty.
An opportunity lost.
Oh well...
So, given the above, let's look at this card. You're spending a card and 4 mana up front to gain the option to do something you probably don't want to do. Even before considering the life loss drawback, this is just bad. It does get better if you have multiple planeswalkers in play, as the 4 you pay lets you activate all of them. Even then, it's not super. A card that needs multiple planeswalkers just to be halfway decent is not something you want to run.
Unplayable in standard, unplayable in EDH, unplayable everywhere. If your deck runs a dozen planeswalkers you are still better off without this card in it.
This is same as Doug suddenly saying there's a recent lack of Eldrazi Titan sightings. When they supposedly have ceaseless hunger and would not stop till the world's finished.
They rewrite stories at magic fans' expenses. Me no likey...
I'm definitely taking their future story telling with a pinch of salt from now onwards. It seems they can change anything at will whenever they feel like it. Definitely loose.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
That is the hardest part for me in EDH games. PWs are always the first target for ANY creature on the table. They are "politically correct" targets to remove and all in the table are always in favour of it.
This is especially nasty when I try to play my No-creatures,PW's-only -deck.
If I had three PW's on the table, I think I would like Veil as well. 4+4 (or even 4 and next round 4) is still quite a hefty price to pay when I try to put out other PW's and also clear the board etc.
Maybe the "trolls" didn't mean race, but disposition
After getting really psyched about this card for a bit, I've calmed down and see that you and others are right. It really does fundamentally suck. You'd have to have 2-3 PWs out to make it even remotely worth it.
Some would say that it's a repeatable effect and repeatable effects inherently cost more, but PWs are hardly sticking around forever these days, so it's not as though you are guaranteed a whole bunch of activations.
If you use it on the opponent's turn, then it wont do anything since the Planewalker abilities are still sorcery speed.
The Veil allows you to use your planewalker abilities again, as if they haven't been used before that on the current turn. So it is somewhat a reset of the once per turn rule.
It's Veil of Deceit , no wonder we got trolled by ogres. Storyline consistency is ogre long ago.
Wonderfully put, sir
Yeah, there's no more consistency in story and flavor. They just retcon left and right when they feel like that.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This reminds me of the infinite combo with Havengul Lich, Heartless Summoning and Perilous Myr which got some excited. Yes, it can work, but it's still a 3+ pieces combo that requires a lot of "if" and easily subject to disruption.
One thing that comes to mind is using it with Nissa + Ajani/another PW then if you have the 4 forests you basically get to activate it for free. Sounds clunky tho..
I love that they printed a card with this effect,
but it's very bad outside of Superfriends,
and there, it's very arguably worse than Contagion Engine
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
i don't know man, nightveil specter, pack rat, underworld connections, desecration demon all came from theros right?
@topic:
Wow, the chain veil is terrible. Why not just play another planeswalker instead, and save you the activation cost. I'd be very surprised if it saw play in standard. In modern that's completely out of the question.
yes i know,
Ogre copying chain veil abilities,
and chain veil abilities is you use your PW abilities
e.g: you have Garruk, Apex Predator on board with 8 loyalty.
then you activate +1: put 3/3 black beast token with deathtouch > loyalty now 9
then you activate chain veil + kurkesh, onakke ancient
what happen is you can activate your Garruk 2 more times, right ?
Garruk use ultimate you put emblem on your opponent, and garruk loyalty now on 1
then, Garruk use ultimate again with only 1 loyalty remain ?
i hope it's clear
edit: adding below quote
Maybe by impactful and tier one you mean terrible?
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Ah, didn't notice that Kurkesh only works on abilities of artifacts. So to directly copy the ultimate, you'd need to add something like Liquimetal Coating.