Remember Architect of Thought? Everyone and their cousin thought it was terrible. Now look at it, it's a Standard staple. It just took a while for it to find it's niche.
Its going to take a very, very special design in Khans for this Jace to be good. Even with that caveat, I'm having trouble imagining how that is possible, given Void Snare in M15.
I can absolutely see this as properly replacing JAoT in forthcoming U/W/x control builds. His +1, while no mini Fact or Fiction, produces card advantage while protecting himself- the exact opposite of JAoT. Considering that I almost never +1 JAoT out out of the gate anymore, I welcome a Jace that protects himself better then the last one by having a loyalty of 5, a +1 that 90% of the time you'll prefer to use upon resolution, and -3 that bounces while still leaving him at a sturdy enough loyalty.
His +1 provides no CA at all (other wise it'd actually be okay). You "scry 1.5", but don't draw.
So drawing a card isn't card advantage.
Got it, thanks man.
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
I can absolutely see this as properly replacing JAoT in forthcoming U/W/x control builds. His +1, while no mini Fact or Fiction, produces card advantage while protecting himself- the exact opposite of JAoT. Considering that I almost never +1 JAoT out out of the gate anymore, I welcome a Jace that protects himself better then the last one by having a loyalty of 5, a +1 that 90% of the time you'll prefer to use upon resolution, and -3 that bounces while still leaving him at a sturdy enough loyalty.
His +1 provides no CA at all (other wise it'd actually be okay). You "scry 1.5", but don't draw.
So drawing a card isn't card advantage.
Got it, thanks man.
Read the card. The +1 doesn't draw anything. It's somewhere between scry 1 and scry 2 in power and effect.
His +1 provides no CA at all (other wise it'd actually be okay). You "scry 1.5", but don't draw.
So drawing a card isn't card advantage.
Got it, thanks man.
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Speak for yourself, I have already set a daily reminder on my phone to alert me and remind me to find his posts so I can ensure that he never lives this down.
I can absolutely see this as properly replacing JAoT in forthcoming U/W/x control builds. His +1, while no mini Fact or Fiction, produces card advantage while protecting himself- the exact opposite of JAoT. Considering that I almost never +1 JAoT out out of the gate anymore, I welcome a Jace that protects himself better then the last one by having a loyalty of 5, a +1 that 90% of the time you'll prefer to use upon resolution, and -3 that bounces while still leaving him at a sturdy enough loyalty.
His +1 provides no CA at all (other wise it'd actually be okay). You "scry 1.5", but don't draw.
So drawing a card isn't card advantage.
Got it, thanks man.
You don't draw the card. It is "look at the top two" and "put one into the graveyard" the second card that you kept stays on top of your library. That is card filtering. And 4 mana to filter one card is NOT good.
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Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
His +1 provides no CA at all (other wise it'd actually be okay). You "scry 1.5", but don't draw.
So drawing a card isn't card advantage.
Got it, thanks man.
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Oh, I honestly think if jace was what this guy seems to think it was then he would be an amazing card. Gives you draws, bounce in a pinch. But no, it is just crap card selection.
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.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Remember Architect of Thought? Everyone and their cousin thought it was terrible. Now look at it, it's a Standard staple. It just took a while for it to find it's niche.
Its going to take a very, very special design in Khans for this Jace to be good. Even with that caveat, I'm having trouble imagining how that is possible, given Void Snare in M15.
I think that he could be playable if we get a lot of graveyard interaction, but other than that I just can't see it.
I don't know, I think people are way off saying this card is bad. We don't know what rotation will look like for control, but I have a hard time ignoring that he comes down and hits ultimate in 3 turns. An ultimate that is back-breaking. As far as 'win-more', I dunno, I'm not so sure. He can't be ignored on the table, but if he's defended, he straight up ends the game, and a lot sooner than you would consider 'win-more', at least for a control deck. I'm going to err on the side of Gideon 2.0 and gladly scoop these up on the cheap while you guys are hating on him, because I do have a feeling you'll be seeing more of him in the next standard than anyone wants to.
This PW is garbage.
The ultimate is nice, and a PW designed around an ultimate is fine.... but only if the minus ability is good as a plan B.
The plan B ability is not good enough, and we pretty much know that because Void Snare is in M15. To the extent that bounce can somehow be made super-relevant in a future block, we will have easier ways to do that.
Remember Architect of Thought? Everyone and their cousin thought it was terrible. Now look at it, it's a Standard staple. It just took a while for it to find it's niche.
That "while" was the entire life of Tamiyo overlapping Jace, AoT and a few sets later.
Once again, a card is judged by the context of the format it is entering and the people that called Jace AoT bad were right to say so because at the time he was, and Bant was able to make use of him to cycle through Thragtusks and that deck was fairly short lived if you examine the life of that format at the time.
Just in M15 alone we have void snare for 1 mana if you want it, and into the void for 4 mana.
Neither of those cards stays on the board to provide additional effects or soak attacks. They also don't threaten to one-sided-TimeTwist you. Repeatability costs more mana. The versatility and additional threat he provides makes him an entirely different option than a simple Void Snare. It's like comparing Ajani Vengeant to Lightning Helix or Chandra, the Firebrand to Fork. Sure, if all you get out of them is one single minus activation, then they are largely an overpriced version of a cheaper spell that probably also "gained" you a couple life or ate a Downfall. But the potential and versatility they bring is what you are paying extra for. If you are racing someone, then potentially bouncing their biggest threat every other turn is a powerful tool.
Hurray, I love it when the character I hate most gets terrible cards
I feel you. I kinda can't stand Jace as a character, too. Although, I wouldn't say this card is terrible. Not as generally powerful in a vacuum as his other iterations, but still not terrible.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I agree that most people here are bad at evaluating cards (though as someones who hated the scrylands and fell in love with Steam Augury I can't claim that I don't fall into that camp). However, it is merely decent, not amazing. His +1 is much better with graveyard interaction, but there are no current decks that synergize with it and would run Jace. The -3 would be good if it was a -2. Right now it is 3 loyalty counters for a 1 mana spell. The ultimate is great, but that's how ultimates generally work. He will see Standard play. But I cannot see him at the level that Jace, Architect of Thought is at right now.
M15, like all core sets, are design with the future meta in mind, when RTR and M14 leaves the format, this is where M15 is truly shines, i've been doing this since Tempest Standard, please trust me on this one... TRUST ME.. this guy is gooood.
It all depends on whether there is good graveyard interaction in Khans of Tarkir. Since they won't be bringing back a full on graveyard-theme after only 3 years (they wait at least 4 years before redoing a theme), it seems doubtful that this will be as good as Architect of Thought.
There's no "good" card... this is where people don't understand STANDARD... A card is only good depending on the cards its surrounded with. Shock can be a good, or a bad card.. all depending in which format it's printed.
Standard is a LIMITED format, where WOTC give us a fixed amount of cards to brew a deck.
I remember a standard format where 1BB Liliana wasent good at all... but hey Lili is a super good card right ?
Remember Call of the Herd ? It was probably the best standard card back in those days... but it's a super crap card now.
New Jace is NOT Jace AoT. Never will be.. but he'll probably be as good or if not better than AoT.. the future meta will tell. It all depends on the speed of the format, on the popularity of certain decks played.
If the format is filled with Bestowed guy, Yes his bounce ability will probably be bad.. but if the format is filled with slow Courser of Kruphix and Polukranos, bouncing/timewalking your opponent with a new permanent on your side in play is AMAZING.
I suppose that you are right. However, given the presence of Bestow and hasty creatures such as Stormbreath Dragon, I can't see the bounce being as amazing as you think it is.
Put yourself in the other chair, opponent plays control, he's got a Jace in play, you're running low on cards... what are your chances of winning with your precious big fatty when you know it's getting bounce..next turn, for free, no mana involved...
If there's a deck with 20 flying hasty guys, i'll concede and say the Jace is bad. But how many games on the play, turn 4 Jace with bounce opponent's turn 3 Courser and timewalk the guy ?
Anyway i won,t argue anymore, i think he's good, i know he's good, i've got 20 years of experience under the belt and i know a good card when i see it. Have a good day sir
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Speak for yourself, I have already set a daily reminder on my phone to alert me and remind me to find his posts so I can ensure that he never lives this down.
eh, I don't need to mock someone else who is disappointed and in no mood for it to achieve validation. Just knowing that I was proven right is usually reward enough. Perhaps a general "I called it" post aimed at nobody in particular is acceptable if you want.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
I feel that he isn't as bad as people say. Sure he won't work now, but if you pay attention WotC makes coresets to COMPLIMENT the oncoming sets, such as Khans of Tarkir coming in fall. I sure am going to pick up a copy just because he seems like he may become relevant later when Khans gets here. Also, blue players are kind of spoiled to be honest. You just had a planeswalker that defined standard for the longest time and now that you get a meh update it's time to talk smack about how WotC sucks at cards? Green and Red have literally been starved of play in tournaments because of all the meh cards they have received through Theros block! And don't say that BANT walkers counts for green influence, I'm talking straight up green and/or red aggro/burn getting completely snuffed out because of how powerful blue is. So the next time you get a meh mythic remember that other colors have been starved of potential power while your greedy needs are fed by WotC, leaving people to either change to fit the norm or quit standard entirely. I rest my case.
M15, like all core sets, are design with the future meta in mind, when RTR and M14 leaves the format, this is where M15 is truly shines, i've been doing this since Tempest Standard, please trust me on this one... TRUST ME.. this guy is gooood.
It all depends on whether there is good graveyard interaction in Khans of Tarkir. Since they won't be bringing back a full on graveyard-theme after only 3 years (they wait at least 4 years before redoing a theme), it seems doubtful that this will be as good as Architect of Thought.
There's no "good" card... this is where people don't understand STANDARD... A card is only good depending on the cards its surrounded with. Shock can be a good, or a bad card.. all depending in which format it's printed.
Standard is a LIMITED format, where WOTC give us a fixed amount of cards to brew a deck.
I remember a standard format where 1BB Liliana wasent good at all... but hey Lili is a super good card right ?
Remember Call of the Herd ? It was probably the best standard card back in those days... but it's a super crap card now.
New Jace is NOT Jace AoT. Never will be.. but he'll probably be as good or if not better than AoT.. the future meta will tell. It all depends on the speed of the format, on the popularity of certain decks played.
If the format is filled with Bestowed guy, Yes his bounce ability will probably be bad.. but if the format is filled with slow Courser of Kruphix and Polukranos, bouncing/timewalking your opponent with a new permanent on your side in play is AMAZING.
I suppose that you are right. However, given the presence of Bestow and hasty creatures such as Stormbreath Dragon, I can't see the bounce being as amazing as you think it is.
Put yourself in the other chair, opponent plays control, he's got a Jace in play, you're running low on cards... what are your chances of winning with your precious big fatty when you know it's getting bounce..next turn, for free, no mana involved...
If there's a deck with 20 flying hasty guys, i'll concede and say the Jace is bad. But how many games on the play, turn 4 Jace with bounce opponent's turn 3 Courser and timewalk the guy ?
Anyway i won,t argue anymore, i think he's good, i know he's good, i've got 20 years of experience under the belt and i know a good card when i see it. Have a good day sir
Good day to you too. I hope that you are right, but I just don't see it being a staple on the level of Architect of Thought.
The second ability is actually quite strong because it gives you an excellent way to reset a troublesome creature/permanent and can also be used to return one of your creatures to get more mileage out of it, or maybe to reset another Planeswalker that is almost dead (wiping the board with Elspeth, bouncing her, and then recasting her to make 3 tokens seems like a solid sequence of plays he makes possible).
The self-bounce is an underrated quality: this bounce ability lets you get multiple activations out of another planeswalker or lets you reset your Banishing Light type cards in addition to serving as a tempo play and reusing your own permanents' CITP abilities. For example, you could activate Ajani Steadfast's -2, bounce it, then replay it and activate it again. That's kind of gross. Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Elspeth are also spectacular with this ability. In a control matchup, the bounce ability lets a single Banishing Light eat two copies of the same planeswalker or legend.
Essentially, it gives you all the flexibility of Void Snare, except it doesn't cost you a card right away, and it might not cost you any mana that turn, either. This Jace doesn't provide card advantage, but it also kind of does.
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"I am so stupid that I cannot understand philosophy; the antithesis of this is that philosophy is so clever that it cannot comprehend my stupidity. These antitheses are mediated in a higher unity; in our common stupidity."
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
This has potential. Maybe not that much, but certainly, comparing it to gideon 2.0 is a crime. Don't overdo it people. Seriously...
Maybe its a little better than Gideon 2.0, but it still isn't good. At least those comparisons are better than people saying that it is worse than Tibaly like they were saying earlier.
Put yourself in the other chair, opponent plays control, he's got a Jace in play, you're running low on cards... what are your chances of winning with your precious big fatty when you know it's getting bounce..next turn, for free, no mana involved...
Its not free. You paid 4 mana and a card for that bounce. You might get another bounce out of it, but after bouncing once you aren't ultimating and we already have a bounce 2 creature spell for 4 mana in M15.
Remember Architect of Thought? Everyone and their cousin thought it was terrible. Now look at it, it's a Standard staple. It just took a while for it to find it's niche.
That "while" was the entire life of Tamiyo overlapping Jace, AoT and a few sets later.
Once again, a card is judged by the context of the format it is entering and the people that called Jace AoT bad were right to say so because at the time he was, and Bant was able to make use of him to cycle through Thragtusks and that deck was fairly short lived if you examine the life of that format at the time.
And then in this format he became a control all-star. It's amazing what a rotation can do for a card. Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Like I said previously, this Jace will most likely not make the cut in the *current* Standard environment. In the context of this meta, it's bad, sure. But that doesn't make it permanently bad for all time. Once RTR rotates out, anything can happen.
The jury's still out on this guy, don't be so quick to hang him.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Speak for yourself, I have already set a daily reminder on my phone to alert me and remind me to find his posts so I can ensure that he never lives this down.
eh, I don't need to mock someone else who is disappointed and in no mood for it to achieve validation. Just knowing that I was proven right is usually reward enough. Perhaps a general "I called it" post aimed at nobody in particular is acceptable if you want.
I was not actually being serious. My time is far more valuable than that.
Remember Architect of Thought? Everyone and their cousin thought it was terrible. Now look at it, it's a Standard staple. It just took a while for it to find it's niche.
That "while" was the entire life of Tamiyo overlapping Jace, AoT and a few sets later.
Once again, a card is judged by the context of the format it is entering and the people that called Jace AoT bad were right to say so because at the time he was, and Bant was able to make use of him to cycle through Thragtusks and that deck was fairly short lived if you examine the life of that format at the time.
And then in this format he became a control all-star. It's amazing what a rotation can do for a card. Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Like I said previously, this Jace will most likely not make the cut in the *current* Standard environment. In the context of this meta, it's bad, sure. But that doesn't make it permanently bad for all time. Once RTR rotates out, anything can happen.
The jury's still out on this guy, don't be so quick to hang him.
He is going to be hung based on the context of the current format. Discussing a card's potential that may or may not exist with the inclusion of a new set is pointless and skewed evaluation that does not offer any proper insight on the effectiveness of a card.
Please point to me where on the card you draw.
His +1 reads: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your graveyard.
You don't put any of them into your hand. In other words, from the moment of play, it is inherently 0.
I think it might be safe to assume we will not see Himashi in this thread till the embarrassment wears off.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Speak for yourself, I have already set a daily reminder on my phone to alert me and remind me to find his posts so I can ensure that he never lives this down.
eh, I don't need to mock someone else who is disappointed and in no mood for it to achieve validation. Just knowing that I was proven right is usually reward enough. Perhaps a general "I called it" post aimed at nobody in particular is acceptable if you want.
We don't need to worry about Kamahl... the Douche already has made himself look bad w/ what he has posted. Even though the bully kicked sand in the dweebs face, the dweeb is still a more kinder and polite person in the end.
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Infraction for flaming -ktkenshinx-
Its going to take a very, very special design in Khans for this Jace to be good. Even with that caveat, I'm having trouble imagining how that is possible, given Void Snare in M15.
He was so enthused, too. I honestly want to hear what he has to say after this realization though. We can forgive.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Read the card. The +1 doesn't draw anything. It's somewhere between scry 1 and scry 2 in power and effect.
Speak for yourself, I have already set a daily reminder on my phone to alert me and remind me to find his posts so I can ensure that he never lives this down.
You don't draw the card. It is "look at the top two" and "put one into the graveyard" the second card that you kept stays on top of your library. That is card filtering. And 4 mana to filter one card is NOT good.
Oh, I honestly think if jace was what this guy seems to think it was then he would be an amazing card. Gives you draws, bounce in a pinch. But no, it is just crap card selection.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I think that he could be playable if we get a lot of graveyard interaction, but other than that I just can't see it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This PW is garbage.
The ultimate is nice, and a PW designed around an ultimate is fine.... but only if the minus ability is good as a plan B.
The plan B ability is not good enough, and we pretty much know that because Void Snare is in M15. To the extent that bounce can somehow be made super-relevant in a future block, we will have easier ways to do that.
That "while" was the entire life of Tamiyo overlapping Jace, AoT and a few sets later.
Once again, a card is judged by the context of the format it is entering and the people that called Jace AoT bad were right to say so because at the time he was, and Bant was able to make use of him to cycle through Thragtusks and that deck was fairly short lived if you examine the life of that format at the time.
Neither of those cards stays on the board to provide additional effects or soak attacks. They also don't threaten to one-sided-TimeTwist you. Repeatability costs more mana. The versatility and additional threat he provides makes him an entirely different option than a simple Void Snare. It's like comparing Ajani Vengeant to Lightning Helix or Chandra, the Firebrand to Fork. Sure, if all you get out of them is one single minus activation, then they are largely an overpriced version of a cheaper spell that probably also "gained" you a couple life or ate a Downfall. But the potential and versatility they bring is what you are paying extra for. If you are racing someone, then potentially bouncing their biggest threat every other turn is a powerful tool.
I feel you. I kinda can't stand Jace as a character, too. Although, I wouldn't say this card is terrible. Not as generally powerful in a vacuum as his other iterations, but still not terrible.
Put yourself in the other chair, opponent plays control, he's got a Jace in play, you're running low on cards... what are your chances of winning with your precious big fatty when you know it's getting bounce..next turn, for free, no mana involved...
If there's a deck with 20 flying hasty guys, i'll concede and say the Jace is bad. But how many games on the play, turn 4 Jace with bounce opponent's turn 3 Courser and timewalk the guy ?
Anyway i won,t argue anymore, i think he's good, i know he's good, i've got 20 years of experience under the belt and i know a good card when i see it. Have a good day sir
eh, I don't need to mock someone else who is disappointed and in no mood for it to achieve validation. Just knowing that I was proven right is usually reward enough. Perhaps a general "I called it" post aimed at nobody in particular is acceptable if you want.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Maybe it's an honorary position where you do nothing, like the Queen of England
Good day to you too. I hope that you are right, but I just don't see it being a staple on the level of Architect of Thought.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Essentially, it gives you all the flexibility of Void Snare, except it doesn't cost you a card right away, and it might not cost you any mana that turn, either. This Jace doesn't provide card advantage, but it also kind of does.
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
Maybe its a little better than Gideon 2.0, but it still isn't good. At least those comparisons are better than people saying that it is worse than Tibaly like they were saying earlier.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Its not free. You paid 4 mana and a card for that bounce. You might get another bounce out of it, but after bouncing once you aren't ultimating and we already have a bounce 2 creature spell for 4 mana in M15.
And then in this format he became a control all-star. It's amazing what a rotation can do for a card. Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Like I said previously, this Jace will most likely not make the cut in the *current* Standard environment. In the context of this meta, it's bad, sure. But that doesn't make it permanently bad for all time. Once RTR rotates out, anything can happen.
The jury's still out on this guy, don't be so quick to hang him.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
I was not actually being serious. My time is far more valuable than that.
He is going to be hung based on the context of the current format. Discussing a card's potential that may or may not exist with the inclusion of a new set is pointless and skewed evaluation that does not offer any proper insight on the effectiveness of a card.
We don't need to worry about Kamahl... the Douche already has made himself look bad w/ what he has posted. Even though the bully kicked sand in the dweebs face, the dweeb is still a more kinder and polite person in the end.
Too late, he's already dead and I'm shopping for a cheap pine box to bury him in.
Maybe buying one of these Jaces would be cheaper.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.