To be fair, you won't see this cycle much in limited due to the rarity.
Now, on the other hand, not considering Vulpine Goliath a limited bomb is just plain stupid. It's a 6/5 for six that has trample, in a block focused on "build a guy". That's a bit boring, but it means it must be blocked or removed immediately. Unlike, well, even Nessian Asp, who is wonderful on the defense, I'm sure, but what about when you want to attack? Like, say, when you have five or six mana out?
tl;dr: Some people just don't value attacking enough. I've heard people here say having to attack to get an 8/8 with trample (that doubles each subsequent attack) was worse than getting having to essentially Time Walk yourself to get a 9/9 with reach, and I'm like, wait, are we playing the same game?
Precisely this, I would say that if we argue for Triple Theros or Born-Theros-Theros, then the Vulpine Goliath is probably to slow to be a playable, but in block draft, it is playable.
Also, people have to stop expecting commons to have the same power levels as rares and mythics, I mean, do you really want a format where commons are as powerful as a Hydra Broodmaster.
I never claimed Vulpine Goliath too be exciting, but assuming you are not about to lose the game, it does impact the board and normally requires an answer and the fox will normally be bigger
than the majority of creatures on the field.
Edit: Anyway, we are getting off topic!
"Playable 6 drop" and "bomb" aren't synonyms. Nothing you said describes a bomb. They describe a playable 6 drop creature. The very fact that you're not excited by it demonstrates that either you don't know what a bomb is or you don't think it's a bomb.
This creature is only a playable 6 drop creature, hence my original posts. But it contridicts your original ones when you were stating that it was a bomb. There is nothing about this card that makes it exciting to be a bomb, or would win the game any faster than a Vulpine Goliath other than flying.
Many may agree and vise versa on the matter, but the facts do stand.
This creature is only a playable 6 drop creature, hence my original posts. But it contridicts your original ones when you were stating that it was a bomb. There is nothing about this card that makes it exciting to be a bomb, or would win the game any faster than a Vulpine Goliath other than flying.
Many may agree and vise versa on the matter, but the facts do stand.
"other than flying"
Yes, let's just ignore parts of cards. That makes card evaluation effective. I mean, Vulpine Goliath is just an overcosted bear with some more power, toughness and trample, right? It's a bomb BECAUSE it's a 6/6 with flying and because it'll eventually replace itself and probably draw another card whether it's removed, discarded, countered or stays on the battlefield. 6/6 flyers for 6 are bombs - they're well above the curve. 6/5 tramplers for 6 are not bombs - they're pretty much right on curve for green.
This creature is only a playable 6 drop creature, hence my original posts. But it contridicts your original ones when you were stating that it was a bomb. There is nothing about this card that makes it exciting to be a bomb, or would win the game any faster than a Vulpine Goliath other than flying.
Many may agree and vise versa on the matter, but the facts do stand.
"other than flying"
Yes, let's just ignore parts of cards. That makes card evaluation effective. I mean, Vulpine Goliath is just an overcosted bear with some more power, toughness and trample, right? It's a bomb BECAUSE it's a 6/6 with flying and because it'll eventually replace itself and probably draw another card whether it's removed, discarded, countered or stays on the battlefield. 6/6 flyers for 6 are bombs - they're well above the curve. 6/5 tramplers for 6 are not bombs - they're pretty much right on curve for green.
Actually, no. Just as late as Scars of Mirrodin, at common, you only got a vanilla 6/5 for that. If you count 3GGG (which is a lot harder than 4GG without a bunch of dual lands), Innistrad gave you a vanilla 6/6. Both are...considering the format (Both formats were a lot faster than Theros.), I wouldn't play either of them.
Actually, green in general has *****ty creatures, but we've been told green has the best creatures for years (like, even when no one played green) that we forget that Tarmogoyf and the like are the exceptions. And getting back on topic, once you ignore the irrelevant text, here we have a 6/6 with flying for 4UU versus a 6/6 with REACH for 4GG.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yes, let's just ignore parts of cards. That makes card evaluation effective.
Nothing was ignored. Try not to take what I said out of context. I stand by what I said because the two abilities are comparable in power. One is not better than the other. Knowing you in this conversation, you will probably disagree for reasons I have no idea.
I mean, Vulpine Goliath is just an overcosted bear with some more power, toughness and trample, right? It's a bomb BECAUSE it's a 6/6 with flying and because it'll eventually replace itself and probably draw another card whether it's removed, discarded, countered or stays on the battlefield. 6/6 flyers for 6 are bombs - they're well above the curve. 6/5 tramplers for 6 are not bombs - they're pretty much right on curve for green.
It may replace itself, but at the cost of 7 mana for 1-2 cards most of the time, well, I really shouldn't have to explain myself, but even if you draw just one card out of it, you wouldn't be able to use for another turn. I agree, that there are better choices for the Goliath, as you stated in an earlier post, but, along those same lines, there are better choices for blue than the Soul of Ravnica. It really is not that worth it to use such an ability unless you must be in some dire need to gain a card or two. Both cards have better options to choose from in limited.
And getting back on topic, once you ignore the irrelevant text, here we have a 6/6 with flying for 4UU versus a 6/6 with REACH for 4GG.
Now this guy knows what is up.
Not entirely sure how the thread got off course as it did, and my apologieses to all of you if I was involved with that in any way, but the conversation is not on the subject of the abilities of the new Soul of Ravnica.
I'm sorry, but what? Flying and trample aren't even vaguely comparable in power level. The rest of your statement is absurd. Yes, there may be a better card than this for limited (probably Jace), but it's not a given and it'll almost certainly be the correct pick in a pack where you open it. I've never seen a pack where Vulpine Goliath is the correct pick. It's not even in the top half of green cards in Theros.
You also completely miss the point of its ability in limited. You're seriously going to sit here and pretend that every turn after turn 6, you're tapping out or even casting anything at all? This guy just sits in your graveyard after it already ate a least one creature, removal spell, discard spell or counterspell and, the next time you topdeck a land with an empty hand, allows you to draw 1-2 cards (or 3 cards) just as pure upside. Do you not remember the invokers? On curve/below the curve creatures with high quality late game abilities that cost a ton of mana. Very good limited cards. This guy is well ahead of the curve and can be used once even after he is dead. Mana dumps in limited are huge.
I'm sorry, but what? Flying and trample aren't even vaguely comparable in power level. The rest of your statement is absurd. Yes, there may be a better card than this for limited (probably Jace), but it's not a given and it'll almost certainly be the correct pick in a pack where you open it. I've never seen a pack where Vulpine Goliath is the correct pick. It's not even in the top half of green cards in Theros.
You also completely miss the point of its ability in limited. You're seriously going to sit here and pretend that every turn after turn 6, you're tapping out or even casting anything at all? This guy just sits in your graveyard after it already ate a least one creature, removal spell, discard spell or counterspell and, the next time you topdeck a land with an empty hand, allows you to draw 1-2 cards (or 3 cards) just as pure upside. Do you not remember the invokers? On curve/below the curve creatures with high quality late game abilities that cost a ton of mana. Very good limited cards. This guy is well ahead of the curve and can be used once even after he is dead. Mana dumps in limited are huge.
*blink**blink* Would you like to re-evaulate your statement, Jermo48. Did you just state Flying was worse than Trample, that is a hugely subjective statement. You could argue that the relavence of an ability is objectively determined by the limited environment, the deck construction and the rarity of the card in a limited environment, amongst other factors.
Frankly, I am glad Vulpine Goliath doesn't spawn tokens or draw cards, no one wants that possibility in power from a common with a body that size!.
Disclaimer: As per the norm, I am aware some people will disagree with my opinion and I acknowledge there is a possibility that my opinion is wrong. The above post is simply my musings on what I view to be the most likely scenario given the information that is available and I am aware of at the time of typing! Peace.
Um, follow the thread. Flying is vastly superior to trample. I certainly didn't say that trample is better than flying, nor would such an assertion be "hugely subjective," it'd just be wrong. You need to read more carefully, sir.
I dont typically buy packs. Ill maybe buy a prerelease if the set looks interesting as a whole, or maybe even one fat pack if i really like it. I loved conspiracy so i bought quite a few packs. My lgs has a $5 minimum on credit card purchases so if im buying snacks ill fill it out with a pack.
But when they do this, where they print a cycle of 5 mythics that are each worse than your average common, it guarantees i will not by packs. Guaranteed.
The business strategy confuses me sometimes.... Clearly there are certain kinds of cards that entice buyers and generate excitement for. A profuct. I guess i find it generally suspicious that they do not print the. Cafds that are actually in demand and instead print jank.
I dont typically buy packs. Ill maybe buy a prerelease if the set looks interesting as a whole, or maybe even one fat pack if i really like it. I loved conspiracy so i bought quite a few packs. My lgs has a $5 minimum on credit card purchases so if im buying snacks ill fill it out with a pack.
But when they do this, where they print a cycle of 5 mythics that are each worse than your average common, it guarantees i will not by packs. Guaranteed.
The business strategy confuses me sometimes.... Clearly there are certain kinds of cards that entice buyers and generate excitement for. A profuct. I guess i find it generally suspicious that they do not print the. Cafds that are actually in demand and instead print jank.
Whats the incentive here?
The incentive is that not only are you looking for that 12.5% chance of opening a mythic, you are looking for that maybe 4% chance of looking for one of the "good" mythics if 1 in 3 are good. It isn't like most people are excited simply because of the color of the expansion symbol (although to be fair, some are), when cracking packs, certain cards are being looked for at all rarities, which translates into more packs sold as we irrationally crack packs looking for that specific subset of cards rather than buying them from retailers.
Shouldn't this thread be in new card discussion. There's new information in this thread, just people complaining about cards they haven't yet had the chance to try.
Um, follow the thread. Flying is vastly superior to trample. I certainly didn't say that trample is better than flying, nor would such an assertion be "hugely subjective," it'd just be wrong. You need to read more carefully, sir.
You may not think so, but development obviously thinks reach is vastly superior to flying.
Actually, I'm starting to think of reach as the 'new flying'. In the old days, one of the problems with cycles was that if they all had a keyword, blue would always have flying. These days, it seems they're doing the same thing with green and reach.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Um, follow the thread. Flying is vastly superior to trample. I certainly didn't say that trample is better than flying, nor would such an assertion be "hugely subjective," it'd just be wrong. You need to read more carefully, sir.
You may not think so, but development obviously thinks reach is vastly superior to flying.
Actually, I'm starting to think of reach as the 'new flying'. In the old days, one of the problems with cycles was that if they all had a keyword, blue would always have flying. These days, it seems they're doing the same thing with green and reach.
Um, follow the thread. Flying is vastly superior to trample. I certainly didn't say that trample is better than flying, nor would such an assertion be "hugely subjective," it'd just be wrong. You need to read more carefully, sir.
You may not think so, but development obviously thinks reach is vastly superior to flying.
Actually, I'm starting to think of reach as the 'new flying'. In the old days, one of the problems with cycles was that if they all had a keyword, blue would always have flying. These days, it seems they're doing the same thing with green and reach.
What in the world does this have to do with anything I said? I never mentioned Reach, although "obviously development thinks reach is vastly superior to flying" is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Reach is almost strictly worse than flying.
Are you trying to say that development seems to think TRAMPLE is vastly superior to reach? If so, why would you think that? They're hard to compare, but trample is obviously better on bigger guys than reach - they just don't give out trample as much as they used to. That doesn't mean they think it's worse. They almost never give creatures Double Strike, yet it's basically the best keyword out there. Your logic doesn't work.
Green requires some reach to work in limited, as its most of the time the only interaction with flyers green has.
You're funny.
The only reason green doesn't get flying is because some idiot in development is in love with flying hate. Some idiot players are too. (And I say idiot players because if your answer to Sword of Feast and Famine or Mind Twist is Plummet, and I sincerely wish I was making that up, than you truly are an idiot.)
With regard to reach, the problem is more of a costing issue. When a creature with reach costs the same as or more than an analogous creature with flying, we have a problem.
What in the world does this have to do with anything I said? I never mentioned Reach, although "obviously development thinks reach is vastly superior to flying" is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Reach is almost strictly worse than flying.
"Almost". It is strictly worse. Anyway, what in the world does trample have to do with this cycle? Which is what inspired my comment. You know, the cycle in this thread?
Reading is tech.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
"Almost". It is strictly worse. Anyway, what in the world does trample have to do with this cycle? Which is what inspired my comment. You know, the cycle in this thread?
Reading is tech.
I have learned to not feed the trolls, but you are correct. However, I do disagree in your first statement and I have to say that Trample is still mostly a green ability. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on Trample vs Flying. Sadly, that is something that would take the thread off course as of now.
This thread has gone off the deep end in much needless debate from the original subject.
I like that you're saying I'm a troll. I'm just extremely Spikey. And I don't see why the hell I would ever play Soul of Ravnica in Constructed OR Soul of Zendikar in, well, any format. (Even in EDH, it's just a really bad Ant Queen.)
No, judging by Theros, trample (at least on cards that matter) is no longer primary in green.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I was referring to Jermo48 for his absurd arguments with nothing to support it, and his rudeness towards others on this thread. Apologiezes for not making that clearer.
No fret, I consider myself a spike/johnny as well. This is a card I would never play.
"Playable 6 drop" and "bomb" aren't synonyms. Nothing you said describes a bomb. They describe a playable 6 drop creature. The very fact that you're not excited by it demonstrates that either you don't know what a bomb is or you don't think it's a bomb.
Many may agree and vise versa on the matter, but the facts do stand.
EDH DECKS
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MAGECRAFT STORM
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Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
"other than flying"
Yes, let's just ignore parts of cards. That makes card evaluation effective. I mean, Vulpine Goliath is just an overcosted bear with some more power, toughness and trample, right? It's a bomb BECAUSE it's a 6/6 with flying and because it'll eventually replace itself and probably draw another card whether it's removed, discarded, countered or stays on the battlefield. 6/6 flyers for 6 are bombs - they're well above the curve. 6/5 tramplers for 6 are not bombs - they're pretty much right on curve for green.
Actually, no. Just as late as Scars of Mirrodin, at common, you only got a vanilla 6/5 for that. If you count 3GGG (which is a lot harder than 4GG without a bunch of dual lands), Innistrad gave you a vanilla 6/6. Both are...considering the format (Both formats were a lot faster than Theros.), I wouldn't play either of them.
Actually, green in general has *****ty creatures, but we've been told green has the best creatures for years (like, even when no one played green) that we forget that Tarmogoyf and the like are the exceptions. And getting back on topic, once you ignore the irrelevant text, here we have a 6/6 with flying for 4UU versus a 6/6 with REACH for 4GG.
On phasing:
Nothing was ignored. Try not to take what I said out of context. I stand by what I said because the two abilities are comparable in power. One is not better than the other. Knowing you in this conversation, you will probably disagree for reasons I have no idea.
It may replace itself, but at the cost of 7 mana for 1-2 cards most of the time, well, I really shouldn't have to explain myself, but even if you draw just one card out of it, you wouldn't be able to use for another turn. I agree, that there are better choices for the Goliath, as you stated in an earlier post, but, along those same lines, there are better choices for blue than the Soul of Ravnica. It really is not that worth it to use such an ability unless you must be in some dire need to gain a card or two. Both cards have better options to choose from in limited.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Now this guy knows what is up.
Not entirely sure how the thread got off course as it did, and my apologieses to all of you if I was involved with that in any way, but the conversation is not on the subject of the abilities of the new Soul of Ravnica.
I have already stated my opinion.
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Its just that they're poor/irrelevant/outclassed everywhere else.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You also completely miss the point of its ability in limited. You're seriously going to sit here and pretend that every turn after turn 6, you're tapping out or even casting anything at all? This guy just sits in your graveyard after it already ate a least one creature, removal spell, discard spell or counterspell and, the next time you topdeck a land with an empty hand, allows you to draw 1-2 cards (or 3 cards) just as pure upside. Do you not remember the invokers? On curve/below the curve creatures with high quality late game abilities that cost a ton of mana. Very good limited cards. This guy is well ahead of the curve and can be used once even after he is dead. Mana dumps in limited are huge.
*blink**blink* Would you like to re-evaulate your statement, Jermo48. Did you just state Flying was worse than Trample, that is a hugely subjective statement. You could argue that the relavence of an ability is objectively determined by the limited environment, the deck construction and the rarity of the card in a limited environment, amongst other factors.
Frankly, I am glad Vulpine Goliath doesn't spawn tokens or draw cards, no one wants that possibility in power from a common with a body that size!.
But when they do this, where they print a cycle of 5 mythics that are each worse than your average common, it guarantees i will not by packs. Guaranteed.
The business strategy confuses me sometimes.... Clearly there are certain kinds of cards that entice buyers and generate excitement for. A profuct. I guess i find it generally suspicious that they do not print the. Cafds that are actually in demand and instead print jank.
Whats the incentive here?
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Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
The incentive is that not only are you looking for that 12.5% chance of opening a mythic, you are looking for that maybe 4% chance of looking for one of the "good" mythics if 1 in 3 are good. It isn't like most people are excited simply because of the color of the expansion symbol (although to be fair, some are), when cracking packs, certain cards are being looked for at all rarities, which translates into more packs sold as we irrationally crack packs looking for that specific subset of cards rather than buying them from retailers.
You may not think so, but development obviously thinks reach is vastly superior to flying.
Actually, I'm starting to think of reach as the 'new flying'. In the old days, one of the problems with cycles was that if they all had a keyword, blue would always have flying. These days, it seems they're doing the same thing with green and reach.
Leafcrown Dryad
Skylasher
Sylvan Primordial
On phasing:
Well we still have the other cycle compared to leafcrown, which actual gives trample.
Overall trample on "big" creatures is more and more something every color gets, especially at rares.
In commons, trample is more of a green and increasingly in red.
Green requires some reach to work in limited, as its most of the time the only interaction with flyers green has.
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What in the world does this have to do with anything I said? I never mentioned Reach, although "obviously development thinks reach is vastly superior to flying" is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Reach is almost strictly worse than flying.
Are you trying to say that development seems to think TRAMPLE is vastly superior to reach? If so, why would you think that? They're hard to compare, but trample is obviously better on bigger guys than reach - they just don't give out trample as much as they used to. That doesn't mean they think it's worse. They almost never give creatures Double Strike, yet it's basically the best keyword out there. Your logic doesn't work.
Except green, but hey! Here's a 2/2 with trample! And a 1/1!
Face it, trample on anything where it can conceivably matter is no longer in green's pie.
You're funny.
The only reason green doesn't get flying is because some idiot in development is in love with flying hate. Some idiot players are too. (And I say idiot players because if your answer to Sword of Feast and Famine or Mind Twist is Plummet, and I sincerely wish I was making that up, than you truly are an idiot.)
With regard to reach, the problem is more of a costing issue. When a creature with reach costs the same as or more than an analogous creature with flying, we have a problem.
"Almost". It is strictly worse. Anyway, what in the world does trample have to do with this cycle? Which is what inspired my comment. You know, the cycle in this thread?
Reading is tech.
On phasing:
I have learned to not feed the trolls, but you are correct. However, I do disagree in your first statement and I have to say that Trample is still mostly a green ability. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on Trample vs Flying. Sadly, that is something that would take the thread off course as of now.
This thread has gone off the deep end in much needless debate from the original subject.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
No, judging by Theros, trample (at least on cards that matter) is no longer primary in green.
On phasing:
No fret, I consider myself a spike/johnny as well. This is a card I would never play.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.