It's a mythic. That design space isn't typically for limited only bombs, because they show up so rarely as to not be particularly relevant when judging the format.
And as for whether this is a limited bomb or not will depend on the format. The direction Wizards has gone recently, big dumb 6 mana fliers haven't even been that great in many sets. Hellkite Tyrant (or whatever the one from Gatecrash was called) was worse than many commons in draft.
I guess, if you like to play bad cards just to play bad cards.
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Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
6/6 flying with no other text would not see mainstream Constructed play at 5 mana (it might be a fringe 1-2 of), and the difference between 5 and 6 mana is enormous.
That's the thing, it is NOT a bomb in limited. Even in that format there are better choices...
I don't know, a 6/6 flyer for 6 is pretty bomby. Drawing cards at instant speed repeated, even if expensive, is a pretty powerful effect. I'd first pick it, easily, based on what we've seen of M15 so far.
Used to be bomby. It is your choice if you absolutely wish to play with a bad card. I for one will probably not even be playing limited, similar to M14.
I would rather have 5 uber powerful mythic cards with 5 crappy rares than the other way round. The soul of ravnica to me deserves it's rarity as much as Conjured Currency deserves to be rare.
Actually, I hope you're wrong and WotC is right this time round. I had enough of Mythics. Mythics should have less chase cards and Rares should have more chase cards. Mythics are what and how LGS justify jacking up prices.
While I will not slam the card out of the pack, in limtied a 6/6 flyer with some minor upside is still safely first pickable and bomby assuming the format is not ultra fast.
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That's the thing, it is NOT a bomb in limited. Even in that format there are better choices...
I don't know, a 6/6 flyer for 6 is pretty bomby. Drawing cards at instant speed repeated, even if expensive, is a pretty powerful effect. I'd first pick it, easily, based on what we've seen of M15 so far.
Used to be bomby. It is your choice if you absolutely wish to play with a bad card. I for one will probably not even be playing limited, similar to M14.
Do you play limited, ever?
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“A man's at odds to know his mind cause his mind is aught he has to know it with. He can know his heart, but he dont want to. Rightly so. Best not to look in there. It aint the heart of a creature that is bound in the way that God has set for it. You can find meanness in the least of creatures, but when God made man the devil was at his elbow. A creature that can do anything. Make a machine. And a machine to make the machine. And evil that can run itself a thousand years, no need to tend it.”
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If you ask me, these cards are not good from a competitive standpoint. Actually, maybe from a Mythic Standpoint as well. Sure, they're 6/6 (ability) for 6 mana, but the costs are expensive and the abilities are really... Lackluster. I mean seriously, How often are you going to be firing off this seven mana ability to draw five cards because you have all five colors on the board? Those of you who are saying it draws 3-5 cards repeatedly... You're assuming you'll always have between 3 and five colors, and two how often are you going to repeat this effect? It costs seven mana to use... Outside of EDH, which you might be able to activate the effect more than once if it lives for that long, I don't think you even will use the effect. This card is going to get nuked from the battlefield as soon as you try it. Soul of Zendikar isn't much better... it just makes 3/3 beasts. These cards are really uncool, unflavorful, and lame. Unless the rest of the three really have cool abilities (Highly doubtful) I expect these to be thrown into the "EDH Card" stereotype, even though I wonder if they're even going to see play there.
Soul of Ravnica is absolutely insanely good. Look at it like this... it does the following:
1. Draws you 3-5 cards.
2. At instant speed.
3. And can't be countered.
4. Oh, and doesn't even cost a card to use.
...and just so happens to have an alternate cost where you can turn it into a 6/6 flyer if you really need one.
Points 2-4 are irrelevant when Point 1 can't be fulfilled without spending 7 mana AND having 2-4 more colors on the board, other than the SoR's color. He's basically French Vanilla: a 6/6 flyer for CMC 6. At MYTHIC. You act like Point 1 is a given, when no one here is denying drawing 3-5 cards at instant speed, uncounterable and repeatable is tremendously powerful, it comes at a cost, and that cost, 7 mana and several more permanents of other colors in play is too unrealistic/unreasonable of a cost. You seem to disregard that cost in your assessment of its power, therefore the assessment is incomplete.
While Soul of Ravnica is likely a no-go, Soul of Zendikar is absolutely constructed playable. It's not like Nykthos is going away anytime soon and I'd much rather mainboard the Soul over Arbor Colossus due to its ability to generate tokens.
Soul of Ravnica is absolutely insanely good. Look at it like this... it does the following:
1. Draws you 3-5 cards.
2. At instant speed.
3. And can't be countered.
4. Oh, and doesn't even cost a card to use.
...and just so happens to have an alternate cost where you can turn it into a 6/6 flyer if you really need one.
Points 2-4 are irrelevant when Point 1 can't be fulfilled without spending 7 mana AND having 2-4 more colors on the board, other than the SoR's color. He's basically French Vanilla: a 6/6 flyer for CMC 6. At MYTHIC.
I don't really see how they're all that much different than the Titans. Like the Titans, they give you about about a card's worth of extra value (on top of the 1-2 removal spells for 1 creature) even if they're removed instantly, just with an additional mana investment whenever you want to pay it. Like the Titans, they continue to give you value every time you untap with them, just for mana. Like the Titans, they're 6/6s for 6 with a static ability. They'll all likely see a little bit of play. The abilities are certainly overcosted for the effect they give, but they're repeatable and can be used once at some point in the game after the creature dies, assuming a 6/6 doesn't just win you the game (everyone who played with Titans know they regularly won games simply by existing, even when their abilities didn't do much).
That's the thing, it is NOT a bomb in limited. Even in that format there are better choices...
A 6/6 flying creature for 6 is undeniably a bomb in limited. It's going to win you the overwhelming majority of games you draw it. In limited, it's almost guaranteed to eventually replace itself and draw you another card, even if they remove it. You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm also not sure why "there are better choices" has anything to do with whether or not a card is a bomb. Is Stormbreath Dragon not a bomb just because Elspeth is even more powerful?
Using Mythic slots for the limited bombs instead of the constructed staples will garner no tears from me.
An excellent point! I am not a limited player, though. It does occur to me that putting the best limited bombs into the Mythic slot makes limited a bit more of a game of chance than skill than it already is, or am I stupid for thinking that? But still, as a non-limited player, I don't care. I'd rather the constructed staples be more accessible.
This is a classic example of "If their ability is weak, then the card must be weak" fallacy. If this card were a 2/2 for 1U, it would be fine. As it is, its a powerhouse. If it were 4UU for a 6/6 with flying, I would draft that card. Until the card's mana cost is over 7, I can't discount it, and six mana is a perfect curve topper. If I land a 6/6 flyer, my opponent is in a tough situation. If I draw a card off that card (no matter the mana cost), my opponent is losing the game 9 times out of 10. This card is a powerhouse with or without its abilities. When you are top decking with ten lands in play, complain about that ability to me.
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Sometimes I feel like the word "interactivity" around here is akin to the word "electrolytes" in sports drinks. The public doesn't really know what it means, but they figure it's a good thing to have.
Soul of Ravnica is absolutely insanely good. Look at it like this... it does the following:
1. Draws you 3-5 cards.
2. At instant speed.
3. And can't be countered.
4. Oh, and doesn't even cost a card to use.
...and just so happens to have an alternate cost where you can turn it into a 6/6 flyer if you really need one.
Points 2-4 are irrelevant when Point 1 can't be fulfilled without spending 7 mana AND having 2-4 more colors on the board, other than the SoR's color. He's basically French Vanilla: a 6/6 flyer for CMC 6. At MYTHIC. You act like Point 1 is a given, when no one here is denying drawing 3-5 cards at instant speed, uncounterable and repeatable is tremendously powerful, it comes at a cost, and that cost, 7 mana and several more permanents of other colors in play is too unrealistic/unreasonable of a cost. You seem to disregard that cost in your assessment of its power, therefore the assessment is incomplete.
It's turn 7 and presumably you're playing him in a control deck. It's not unreasonable to assume that you have a couple of permanents in play.
I don't really see how they're all that much different than the Titans. Like the Titans, they give you about about a card's worth of extra value (on top of the 1-2 removal spells for 1 creature) even if they're removed instantly, just with an additional mana investment whenever you want to pay it. Like the Titans, they continue to give you value every time you untap with them, just for mana. Like the Titans, they're 6/6s for 6 with a static ability. They'll all likely see a little bit of play. The abilities are certainly overcosted for the effect they give, but they're repeatable and can be used once at some point in the game after the creature dies, assuming a 6/6 doesn't just win you the game (everyone who played with Titans know they regularly won games simply by existing, even when their abilities didn't do much).
ETB and attack triggers versus a 7 mana activated ability. There's an enormous value chasm between the two, and I actually don't understand how people are conflating the two cycles (most notably Pro Tour champion Patrick Chapin). It's not about power level so much as playability; the mana required to recoup lost value when it dies is really high, and the Soul offers no resistance to kill spells. In contrast, Frost Titan is more expensive to target AND immediately taps down threats or mana sources, all for free. One stabilizes you when you're behind, the other does not.
It's not outright unplayable, but I would be much more convinced if the ability was like "3U: Draw a card" instead of "5UU: Draw 1 - 5 cards, depending on how well you're doing."
Some cards are better when behind, some are better at parity, some are better when ahead. Just because something is better when you're behind doesn't mean it's better. Divine Reckoning is regularly better than Day of Judgment when you're behind - which card is better? Soul of Ravnica, when you're close or ahead, is going to put you ahead faster than Frost Titan (and its protection is absurdly irrelevant most of the time unless you're ahead). Plus, as usual, you ignore the benefits of the cards you're trying to argue against. Yes, Frost Titan has bad hexproof. This has flying. Hardly irrelevant.
And no one said the way these guys give value is better than or equal to the way Titans, but it's clearly somewhat comparable and the Titans were, in their correct decks, absurdly powerful cards. There's a pretty wide gap between "good enough to see standard play" and the Titans. Their value is fine.
PS: One important thing you all seem to ignore is that the Souls give you value even if they're discarded or countered, which is hardly an irrelevant perk. The Titans do not.
Just because you believe it to be a bomb does not make it one. More than half the time, contrary to what you believe, it will not even be replacing itself, if it does, then you still wasted 1-3 turns depending on the circumstances. Obviously you have no idea what I am talking about as you do not see this, and the fact you stated it yourself. I can easily take a card like this down in limited with all the removal going around for, say, no more than two mana.
Did you really just compare this card to how powerful Stormbreath Dragon, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in limited? Personally, I'd choose the dragon for the haste and protection, cuz, like in constructed, you want things that react immediately. Elspeth can still kill him sure, but the Dragon more likely will see more gameplay. Personal opinion on that one. The Soul of Ravnica does nothing for over a turn, assuming you draw into another land to use it's awful ability that will probably not even be used half the time because there are other things to cast, other things to activate, etc. Don't get me wrong, people will play this claiming it to be 'good'...
Soul of Ravnica is absolutely insanely good. Look at it like this... it does the following:
1. Draws you 3-5 cards.
If you happen to have 3-5 colors worth of permanents sitting in play (tell me again why you need to spend 7 mana to draw cards at this point rather than just winning the game?) Being more realistic, it draws 2 or 3 cards per activation until RTR rotates, then likely draws 1 or 2 cards per activation.
No, it does however come with steep setup and opportunity costs. To activate the ability you must invest 6 mana into playing it or find some way to get it into your graveyard (getting thoughtseized works), you must also have permanents in play, preferably with various color identities and then you must spend 7 mana to activate it.
This is a classic example of "If their ability is weak, then the card must be weak" fallacy. If this card were a 2/2 for 1U, it would be fine. As it is, its a powerhouse. If it were 4UU for a 6/6 with flying, I would draft that card. Until the card's mana cost is over 7, I can't discount it, and six mana is a perfect curve topper. If I land a 6/6 flyer, my opponent is in a tough situation. If I draw a card off that card (no matter the mana cost), my opponent is losing the game 9 times out of 10. This card is a powerhouse with or without its abilities. When you are top decking with ten lands in play, complain about that ability to me.
In limited, yes, a 6/6 flyer for 6 is fine, the people who are unhappy with it are mostly looking at it from a constructed magic standpoint as it it is pretty silly to get upset about a mythic rare being too weak in limited, it just won't matter often enough.
It's turn 7 and presumably you're playing him in a control deck. It's not unreasonable to assume that you have a couple of permanents in play.
In a lot of formats, this isn't true. While detention sphere is around, expecting to have 2+ colors on board a good portion of the time isn't completely unreasonable, especially if you are also running say kiora or assemble the legion. There have been plenty of control decks that don't run other perms besides their finisher (which this card clearly would be).
Not the point and the active is what is discussed and yes they just turned horrible on the border of making it a 6/6 flying, french vanilla. Still its body is great for its cost, so it's still a limited bomb but it is much less interesting than it was with 2 CMC down on the actives. UU3 is acceptable to draw 1-2 cards in limited. UU5 is really hurting.
That's the thing, it is NOT a bomb in limited. Even in that format there are better choices...
I don't know, a 6/6 flyer for 6 is pretty bomby. Drawing cards at instant speed repeated, even if expensive, is a pretty powerful effect. I'd first pick it, easily, based on what we've seen of M15 so far.
Used to be bomby. It is your choice if you absolutely wish to play with a bad card. I for one will probably not even be playing limited, similar to M14.
I explicitly acknowledged the potential to draw 5. And my emphasis was not on stabilizing but on the mana investment. Nowhere did I say it must stabilize to be equal or better, my point went entirely to the expense of the ability versus what you'll want to be doing in the average game state.
Dead spots happen in competitive games, but you don't jam 6-mana creatures into your deck "just in case." Even self-mill or discard strategies need the creature to provide other benefits. How much play have Scavenge creatures seen?
I'm not saying it's horrible awfulness, but I AM talking about competition, and even post-rotation I just don't see it. I think Prognostic Sphinx would take that trophy first out of the cards we have so far, but we'll see I suppose.
And as for whether this is a limited bomb or not will depend on the format. The direction Wizards has gone recently, big dumb 6 mana fliers haven't even been that great in many sets. Hellkite Tyrant (or whatever the one from Gatecrash was called) was worse than many commons in draft.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
6/6 flying with no other text would not see mainstream Constructed play at 5 mana (it might be a fringe 1-2 of), and the difference between 5 and 6 mana is enormous.
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Used to be bomby. It is your choice if you absolutely wish to play with a bad card. I for one will probably not even be playing limited, similar to M14.
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Actually, I hope you're wrong and WotC is right this time round. I had enough of Mythics. Mythics should have less chase cards and Rares should have more chase cards. Mythics are what and how LGS justify jacking up prices.
So yes to more Tiago level cards at rare and less Thundermaw Hellkite at mythic.
BTW, Totally agree with an earlier post. Sphinx of Magosi just slaps SoR left right center.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
1. Draws you 3-5 cards.
2. At instant speed.
3. And can't be countered.
4. Oh, and doesn't even cost a card to use.
...and just so happens to have an alternate cost where you can turn it into a 6/6 flyer if you really need one.
WotC, please hire me already.
Do you play limited, ever?
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Points 2-4 are irrelevant when Point 1 can't be fulfilled without spending 7 mana AND having 2-4 more colors on the board, other than the SoR's color. He's basically French Vanilla: a 6/6 flyer for CMC 6. At MYTHIC. You act like Point 1 is a given, when no one here is denying drawing 3-5 cards at instant speed, uncounterable and repeatable is tremendously powerful, it comes at a cost, and that cost, 7 mana and several more permanents of other colors in play is too unrealistic/unreasonable of a cost. You seem to disregard that cost in your assessment of its power, therefore the assessment is incomplete.
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I don't really see how they're all that much different than the Titans. Like the Titans, they give you about about a card's worth of extra value (on top of the 1-2 removal spells for 1 creature) even if they're removed instantly, just with an additional mana investment whenever you want to pay it. Like the Titans, they continue to give you value every time you untap with them, just for mana. Like the Titans, they're 6/6s for 6 with a static ability. They'll all likely see a little bit of play. The abilities are certainly overcosted for the effect they give, but they're repeatable and can be used once at some point in the game after the creature dies, assuming a 6/6 doesn't just win you the game (everyone who played with Titans know they regularly won games simply by existing, even when their abilities didn't do much).
A 6/6 flying creature for 6 is undeniably a bomb in limited. It's going to win you the overwhelming majority of games you draw it. In limited, it's almost guaranteed to eventually replace itself and draw you another card, even if they remove it. You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm also not sure why "there are better choices" has anything to do with whether or not a card is a bomb. Is Stormbreath Dragon not a bomb just because Elspeth is even more powerful?
An excellent point! I am not a limited player, though. It does occur to me that putting the best limited bombs into the Mythic slot makes limited a bit more of a game of chance than skill than it already is, or am I stupid for thinking that? But still, as a non-limited player, I don't care. I'd rather the constructed staples be more accessible.
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It's turn 7 and presumably you're playing him in a control deck. It's not unreasonable to assume that you have a couple of permanents in play.
WotC, please hire me already.
ETB and attack triggers versus a 7 mana activated ability. There's an enormous value chasm between the two, and I actually don't understand how people are conflating the two cycles (most notably Pro Tour champion Patrick Chapin). It's not about power level so much as playability; the mana required to recoup lost value when it dies is really high, and the Soul offers no resistance to kill spells. In contrast, Frost Titan is more expensive to target AND immediately taps down threats or mana sources, all for free. One stabilizes you when you're behind, the other does not.
It's not outright unplayable, but I would be much more convinced if the ability was like "3U: Draw a card" instead of "5UU: Draw 1 - 5 cards, depending on how well you're doing."
And no one said the way these guys give value is better than or equal to the way Titans, but it's clearly somewhat comparable and the Titans were, in their correct decks, absurdly powerful cards. There's a pretty wide gap between "good enough to see standard play" and the Titans. Their value is fine.
PS: One important thing you all seem to ignore is that the Souls give you value even if they're discarded or countered, which is hardly an irrelevant perk. The Titans do not.
Did you really just compare this card to how powerful Stormbreath Dragon, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in limited? Personally, I'd choose the dragon for the haste and protection, cuz, like in constructed, you want things that react immediately. Elspeth can still kill him sure, but the Dragon more likely will see more gameplay. Personal opinion on that one. The Soul of Ravnica does nothing for over a turn, assuming you draw into another land to use it's awful ability that will probably not even be used half the time because there are other things to cast, other things to activate, etc. Don't get me wrong, people will play this claiming it to be 'good'...
But it isn't.
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Barring a reprint of something like Voidslime, Squelch, Voidmage Husher, etc. sure...
No, it does however come with steep setup and opportunity costs. To activate the ability you must invest 6 mana into playing it or find some way to get it into your graveyard (getting thoughtseized works), you must also have permanents in play, preferably with various color identities and then you must spend 7 mana to activate it.
And there you go, marginalizing the only good part of the card heh.
In limited, yes, a 6/6 flyer for 6 is fine, the people who are unhappy with it are mostly looking at it from a constructed magic standpoint as it it is pretty silly to get upset about a mythic rare being too weak in limited, it just won't matter often enough.
In a lot of formats, this isn't true. While detention sphere is around, expecting to have 2+ colors on board a good portion of the time isn't completely unreasonable, especially if you are also running say kiora or assemble the legion. There have been plenty of control decks that don't run other perms besides their finisher (which this card clearly would be).
UU3 is acceptable to draw 1-2 cards in limited. UU5 is really hurting.
Yes sir! Do you?
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Dead spots happen in competitive games, but you don't jam 6-mana creatures into your deck "just in case." Even self-mill or discard strategies need the creature to provide other benefits. How much play have Scavenge creatures seen?
I'm not saying it's horrible awfulness, but I AM talking about competition, and even post-rotation I just don't see it. I think Prognostic Sphinx would take that trophy first out of the cards we have so far, but we'll see I suppose.