But more importantly, why do I get the feeling that the Grenzo in the flavor text could be the name of the yet-unrevealed monstrous-looking Legendary?
This Grenzo is also mentioned by name in an article today:
{Ervos is talking to Marchesa about how he would kill her}
"I would never make it out alive," Ervos continued, "even if I did strike you down where you sit right now and used a spell to render the zombies inert, I would still need to leave the house. I would have two avenues of exit, the yard or sewers—which I know, after murdering the city registrar and stealing the plans to your home, connect to your basement. The yard would be covered by the archers perched on your rooftop, and the sewers no doubt run me afoul of that damnable Grenzo you have arraignments with. Likewise, I highly suspect that if I were to murder you I would, of course, be afflicted with some sort of dark curse that would leave me in a state of horrible pain, but never allowing me to die."
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Contraption is a new artifact type. There are currently no artifacts with this type. And there's no current game meaning of "assemble."
But more importantly, why do I get the feeling that the Grenzo in the flavor text could be the name of the yet-unrevealed monstrous-looking Legendary?
This Grenzo is also mentioned by name in an article today:
{Ervos is talking to Marchesa about how he would kill her}
"I would never make it out alive," Ervos continued, "even if I did strike you down where you sit right now and used a spell to render the zombies inert, I would still need to leave the house. I would have two avenues of exit, the yard or sewers—which I know, after murdering the city registrar and stealing the plans to your home, connect to your basement. The yard would be covered by the archers perched on your rooftop, and the sewers no doubt run me afoul of that damnable Grenzo you have arraignments with. Likewise, I highly suspect that if I were to murder you I would, of course, be afflicted with some sort of dark curse that would leave me in a state of horrible pain, but never allowing me to die."
Interesting. As for Wolfman's question, I suspect it's because the monstrous-looking dude has a key on the end of his staff, which certainly fits with being a dungeon warden. I'd be surprised if that wasn't him. Does this perhaps mean he's at least partially red?
I really like this card, and I think it exemplifies why Dethrone is such a potent mechanic. It synergises so well with itself, but the thing I think I adore most about this card is that it's able to be targeted by Imperial Recruiter. The more cards I see with Dethrone makes me want to see it as an actual mechanic within a full expansion. Hopefully, Wizards realises the potential for it.
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My List of Current Decks: -Modern- WMartyrProcB BBurnR -Commander-
"Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)"
Just restating the card text is not exactly being helpful.
The combo kind of works; you can in fact generate arbitrarily large amounts of mana with it -- but you'd have to win the game with it immediately, at instant-speed.
Edit: The follwoing analysis is wrong, because I forgot mana abilities don't use the stack. (Thanks to Bogardan Mage to pointing that out.) But the conclusion is ultimately correct -- you can make infinite mana, but you'll have to win the game at instant speed unless you can destroy Transcendence and then counter its "lose the game" ability.
As Mr. Stuff says, you cannot pay a nonzero amount of life if you don't have at least that much life. It doesn't matter that you won't lose the game for going to 0 or below; it wouldn't even matter if there were a replacement effect out preventing you from actually going negative. (Which, by the way, Transcendence isn't -- it's a triggered ability.) It's simply not allowed.
But, you don't have to activate the ability repeatedly without letting Transcendence's ability resolve. You can just let it resolve. Each time you do, you gain another 6 life, good for another 2 activations.
The problem is, because the Transcendence ability goes on the stack on top of the the Ogre activation, for each you want to get out of it, you have to let the Transcendence ability resolve. (Saying above that you "can just let it resolve" was a bit disingenuous; not letting it resolve wasn't really an option, assuming you actually wanted the mana.) Which means that for each one red mana you actually end up gaining, your life total is going to be going up by 3. (Or more, if you let an additional Transcendence ability resolve for some reason.)
Eventually this will put you over 20 life, and Transcendence's other ability will trigger. The "lose the game" one. Now, fortunately, this is a state trigger, so it will only trigger once (unless you Stifle it or something -- don't do that without destroying Transcendence first, it'll just trigger again). If you can win the game with it still on the stack, you're fine. So at this point you can continue gaining life and mana... and you can use this to cast instants and activate abilities, and hopefully win the game that way... but if you want to cast a sorcery, well, you're screwed, unless you can pull off something like the Disenchant/Stifle trick mentioned above.
The problem is, because the Transcendence ability goes on the stack on top of the the Ogre activation, for each you want to get out of it, you have to let the Transcendence ability resolve. (Saying above that you "can just let it resolve" was a bit disingenuous; not letting it resolve wasn't really an option, assuming you actually wanted the mana.) Which means that for each one red mana you actually end up gaining, your life total is going to be going up by 3. (Or more, if you let an additional Transcendence ability resolve for some reason.)
Mana abilities don't use the stack. I'm not sure if this changes the equation in the long run, because you need to do whatever it is you're doing at instant speed anyway, but the life gain trigger does not interrupt the mana ability because activated mana abilites don't go on the stack.
The problem is, because the Transcendence ability goes on the stack on top of the the Ogre activation, for each you want to get out of it, you have to let the Transcendence ability resolve. (Saying above that you "can just let it resolve" was a bit disingenuous; not letting it resolve wasn't really an option, assuming you actually wanted the mana.) Which means that for each one red mana you actually end up gaining, your life total is going to be going up by 3. (Or more, if you let an additional Transcendence ability resolve for some reason.)
Mana abilities don't use the stack. I'm not sure if this changes the equation in the long run, because you need to do whatever it is you're doing at instant speed anyway, but the life gain trigger does not interrupt the mana ability because activated mana abilites don't go on the stack.
Oh, you're absolutely right. I completely neglected that. Thank you. This means I was wrong that you have to gain the 6 life in order to get to the red mana. You do have to start letting the Transcendence triggers resolve once you're low on life, as otherwise you won't be able to pay more, but you don't have to go over 20 just to get to your mana, like I claimed that you do.
But, as you say, while my analysis is wrong, the conclusion is nonetheless correct -- you can make infinite mana, but you have to win the game at instant speed unless you can do Disenchant/Stifle or something similar. Because if you don't, those Transcendence triggers will go off, and then the "lose the game" ability will trigger before you have the chance to cast a sorcery.
I'm surprised they printed this. There hasn't been a straight-up "pay life for mana, no tapping" card since the original Channel. Sure, it's 3 life rather than 1, but the fact that there has been nothing since Channel suggests that it's something they were afraid of. Maybe that's why this isn't going in a Standard-legal set.
This + Angel's Grace or Platinum Angel could be fun in EDH.
Noob Question: How does his ability work with Platinum Emperion ? Can you still pay life to get R?
First: Angels grace and platinum angel won't make as big of a difference as you think. You can't pay life you don't have, even if it wouldn't kill you.
Second, Platinum Emperion says right on it that you can't pay any amount of life except 0, so if something has life as part of its cost you can't cast it or activate it. No mana for you.
This + Angel's Grace or Platinum Angel could be fun in EDH.
Noob Question: How does his ability work with Platinum Emperion ? Can you still pay life to get R?
As was mentioned earlier in relation to Transcendence, you can't pay life that you don't have. So you can't activate this ability if you're at 2 or less life. Platinum Emperion prevents you from ever paying life, even if you have more than 3.
Children of Korlis seems like a much better combo enabler for this card rather than Transcendence, because with Transcendence you have a cut-off point, whereas with Children, you can go further more reliably, I like this for Legacy.
Transcendence is a nice combo for EDH, but for a competitive format, I like Children more.
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[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
"Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)"
Just restating the card text is not exactly being helpful.
The combo kind of works; you can in fact generate arbitrarily large amounts of mana with it -- but you'd have to win the game with it immediately, at instant-speed.
1) I said right in my first post that it's infinite mana at instant-speed. I think I was a little vague there as that could be misconstrued as "infinite mana that could be acquired at instant speed", but still, I tried.
2) I'm sorry if I wasn't being very helpful, but someone could have easily read the first line of text, thought 'oh, this is another Angel's Grace-type card', stopped reading entirely, and missed the last lines of text. Restating the part of the card that specifically makes the combo work seemed to work for me.
Boost it out go to 1-2 life and then switch life, to boost even more mana to kill your now at 1-2 life opponent with a simpel burn.
Using Goblin Welder to cheat on the artifacts and some trick this might be quite a thing, maybe even in legacy, taken we can use the lands that produce more colorless aswell City of Traitor / Ancient Tomb
Children of Korlis seems like a much better combo enabler for this card rather than Transcendence, because with Transcendence you have a cut-off point, whereas with Children, you can go further more reliably, I like this for Legacy.
Transcendence is a nice combo for EDH, but for a competitive format, I like Children more.
Since you still can't pay life you don't have, Children also has a cut-off point unless you have an additional combo to recur it arbitrarily. For example, if you have Treasonous Ogre, Children of Korlis, and 20 life, you can add 12 red mana to your mana pool. Transcendence is an infinite combo (that will cause you to lose the game if you don't have an instant-speed game winner (which you do if you're using that combo)), Children of Korlis is a way to do something twice. Useful, but a long way short of infinite.
Children of Korlis seems like a much better combo enabler for this card rather than Transcendence, because with Transcendence you have a cut-off point, whereas with Children, you can go further more reliably, I like this for Legacy.
Transcendence is a nice combo for EDH, but for a competitive format, I like Children more.
Since you still can't pay life you don't have, Children also has a cut-off point unless you have an additional combo to recur it arbitrarily. For example, if you have Treasonous Ogre, Children of Korlis, and 20 life, you can add 12 red mana to your mana pool. Transcendence is an infinite combo (that will cause you to lose the game if you don't have an instant-speed game winner (which you do if you're using that combo)), Children of Korlis is a way to do something twice. Useful, but a long way short of infinite.
Yeah, Notice I said "Legacy" not "EDH"
Transcendence is good in EDH, where a 6 mana Enchantment that does nothing when it hits is "okay"
In Legacy, that 12 Mana on Turn 3-4 could win you the game...
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[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
This Grenzo is also mentioned by name in an article today:
{Ervos is talking to Marchesa about how he would kill her}
"I would never make it out alive," Ervos continued, "even if I did strike you down where you sit right now and used a spell to render the zombies inert, I would still need to leave the house. I would have two avenues of exit, the yard or sewers—which I know, after murdering the city registrar and stealing the plans to your home, connect to your basement. The yard would be covered by the archers perched on your rooftop, and the sewers no doubt run me afoul of that damnable Grenzo you have arraignments with. Likewise, I highly suspect that if I were to murder you I would, of course, be afflicted with some sort of dark curse that would leave me in a state of horrible pain, but never allowing me to die."
Interesting. As for Wolfman's question, I suspect it's because the monstrous-looking dude has a key on the end of his staff, which certainly fits with being a dungeon warden. I'd be surprised if that wasn't him. Does this perhaps mean he's at least partially red?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
You can't pay costs with negative life.
"Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)"
But that's a poor name. I was expecting some Act of Treason effect before I clicked the title.
Anyways, I believe this Ogre is a precursor to Khans of Tarkir. Ogres are back.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Just restating the card text is not exactly being helpful.
The combo kind of works; you can in fact generate arbitrarily large amounts of mana with it -- but you'd have to win the game with it immediately, at instant-speed.
Edit: The follwoing analysis is wrong, because I forgot mana abilities don't use the stack. (Thanks to Bogardan Mage to pointing that out.) But the conclusion is ultimately correct -- you can make infinite mana, but you'll have to win the game at instant speed unless you can destroy Transcendence and then counter its "lose the game" ability.
As Mr. Stuff says, you cannot pay a nonzero amount of life if you don't have at least that much life. It doesn't matter that you won't lose the game for going to 0 or below; it wouldn't even matter if there were a replacement effect out preventing you from actually going negative. (Which, by the way, Transcendence isn't -- it's a triggered ability.) It's simply not allowed.
But, you don't have to activate the ability repeatedly without letting Transcendence's ability resolve. You can just let it resolve. Each time you do, you gain another 6 life, good for another 2 activations.
The problem is, because the Transcendence ability goes on the stack on top of the the Ogre activation, for each you want to get out of it, you have to let the Transcendence ability resolve. (Saying above that you "can just let it resolve" was a bit disingenuous; not letting it resolve wasn't really an option, assuming you actually wanted the mana.) Which means that for each one red mana you actually end up gaining, your life total is going to be going up by 3. (Or more, if you let an additional Transcendence ability resolve for some reason.)
Eventually this will put you over 20 life, and Transcendence's other ability will trigger. The "lose the game" one. Now, fortunately, this is a state trigger, so it will only trigger once (unless you Stifle it or something -- don't do that without destroying Transcendence first, it'll just trigger again). If you can win the game with it still on the stack, you're fine. So at this point you can continue gaining life and mana... and you can use this to cast instants and activate abilities, and hopefully win the game that way... but if you want to cast a sorcery, well, you're screwed, unless you can pull off something like the Disenchant/Stifle trick mentioned above.
Mana abilities don't use the stack. I'm not sure if this changes the equation in the long run, because you need to do whatever it is you're doing at instant speed anyway, but the life gain trigger does not interrupt the mana ability because activated mana abilites don't go on the stack.
Oh, you're absolutely right. I completely neglected that. Thank you. This means I was wrong that you have to gain the 6 life in order to get to the red mana. You do have to start letting the Transcendence triggers resolve once you're low on life, as otherwise you won't be able to pay more, but you don't have to go over 20 just to get to your mana, like I claimed that you do.
But, as you say, while my analysis is wrong, the conclusion is nonetheless correct -- you can make infinite mana, but you have to win the game at instant speed unless you can do Disenchant/Stifle or something similar. Because if you don't, those Transcendence triggers will go off, and then the "lose the game" ability will trigger before you have the chance to cast a sorcery.
Noob Question: How does his ability work with Platinum Emperion ? Can you still pay life to get R?
First: Angels grace and platinum angel won't make as big of a difference as you think. You can't pay life you don't have, even if it wouldn't kill you.
Second, Platinum Emperion says right on it that you can't pay any amount of life except 0, so if something has life as part of its cost you can't cast it or activate it. No mana for you.
edit: fwoop, DoomedLich got it first.
Japanese Chandra Nalaar Count: 5
As was mentioned earlier in relation to Transcendence, you can't pay life that you don't have. So you can't activate this ability if you're at 2 or less life. Platinum Emperion prevents you from ever paying life, even if you have more than 3.
Transcendence is a nice combo for EDH, but for a competitive format, I like Children more.
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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1) I said right in my first post that it's infinite mana at instant-speed. I think I was a little vague there as that could be misconstrued as "infinite mana that could be acquired at instant speed", but still, I tried.
2) I'm sorry if I wasn't being very helpful, but someone could have easily read the first line of text, thought 'oh, this is another Angel's Grace-type card', stopped reading entirely, and missed the last lines of text. Restating the part of the card that specifically makes the combo work seemed to work for me.
Boost it out go to 1-2 life and then switch life, to boost even more mana to kill your now at 1-2 life opponent with a simpel burn.
Using Goblin Welder to cheat on the artifacts and some trick this might be quite a thing, maybe even in legacy, taken we can use the lands that produce more colorless aswell City of Traitor / Ancient Tomb
You can even use Chalice of the Void, maybe Blood moon and use this as a win con in some red decks that can also use Painter Servant / Grindstone.
Maybe its even kinda viable for Sneak Attack or some form of reanimator with storm, similiar to Grislebrand.
Needs some brewing, but that seems at least somehow viable, it costs 4, so its not too trivial to use (any lower would be just way too easy).
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👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Since you still can't pay life you don't have, Children also has a cut-off point unless you have an additional combo to recur it arbitrarily. For example, if you have Treasonous Ogre, Children of Korlis, and 20 life, you can add 12 red mana to your mana pool. Transcendence is an infinite combo (that will cause you to lose the game if you don't have an instant-speed game winner (which you do if you're using that combo)), Children of Korlis is a way to do something twice. Useful, but a long way short of infinite.
Like, WOW.
Yeah, Notice I said "Legacy" not "EDH"
Transcendence is good in EDH, where a 6 mana Enchantment that does nothing when it hits is "okay"
In Legacy, that 12 Mana on Turn 3-4 could win you the game...
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
Please Visit my Alterations Page!
My Alters Sales Thread
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