So Elspeth serves as a prodigious knight-errant on Bant and greatly assists in the Maelstrom fiasco on Alara.
Then she goes to Mirrodin and (fruitlessly) strives to cleanse it of the Phyrexian infestation.
After that, she goes to Theros and is tasked by a god to slay another god, and in return, he murders her out of pure jealousy and egotism?
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I'm getting really tired of seeing this misconception...
Xenagos was not a "good guy", not in the least, he was a horrible person who did horrible things and deserved what he got.
Although to be fair, it kinda sucks since he was a pretty interesting villain and it would have been interesting to have him show up occasionally in other stories, manipulating things, sorta like Nico Bolas, only a Satyr-God instead of an Elder Dragon.
The OP is terrible - I don't even know exactly what "this quote" is or by whom.
Sorry, I thought that I am clear enough for anyone with basic google-using skills to go and find the source. Added quotation marks and link to the source page, hope that is satisfactory for you now. Who exactly said that is not available from that page.
Also why does this in the Rumor Mill? Speculation? Storyline?
Because it is an important information?
Because 95% of the Rumor Mill visitors does not concern themselves with story and does not read Storyline?
Because Wizards failed, as opposed to Xenagos's fate, to communicate this important event to these very people by cards?
Because without this information, people will speculate about Elspeth returning in blocks to come? (not that it would stop anybody from it, as I see now - at least it looks like limited to potential Return to Theros...)
Because in Storyline, our rather small community discussed this event to death?
Because with this info, it is less "speculation" and more of a fact?
Shall I continue?
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Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I'm getting really tired of seeing this misconception...
Xenagos was not a "good guy", not in the least, he was a horrible person who did horrible things and deserved what he got.
That's another failing of this block; they did a piss-poor job of conveying on the cards why we should be rooting for Xenagos's defeat, especially in light of the fact that the gods he's opposing are horrible people as well.
I mean, apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun, and apparently him becoming a god was damaging the fabric of Theros. But the only reason I know that is because I frequent the MTGSalvation storyline forums. The cards paint him as more of a party animal who's trying to stick it to the man. Which is actually something people can sympathize with, especially when "the man" is an ***hole like Heliod.
I can understand not putting every plot detail on a card, but why the badguy is a bad guy seems like a pretty important message to make sure you convey.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
At the end of the Inside R&D video, after explaining how Elspeth died, Jenna mentions that "This is Theros. And that is not the end of the story."
I'm honestly not quite sure what she meant by that. Not the end of Theros's story? Not the end of Elspeth's story? Or simply not the end of Magic's story?
I'm getting really tired of seeing this misconception...
Xenagos was not a "good guy", not in the least, he was a horrible person who did horrible things and deserved what he got.
That's another failing of this block; they did a piss-poor job of conveying on the cards why we should be rooting for Xenagos's defeat, especially in light of the fact that the gods he's opposing are horrible people as well.
I mean, apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun, and apparently him becoming a god was damaging the fabric of Theros. But the only reason I know that is because I frequent the MTGSalvation storyline forums. The cards paint him as more of a party animal who's trying to stick it to the man. Which is actually something people can sympathize with, especially when "the man" is an ***hole like Heliod.
I can understand not putting every plot detail on a card, but why the badguy is a bad guy seems like a pretty important message to make sure you convey.
Xenagos is a true psychopath in the novels. He staged the minotaurs' siege of Akros AND gave Elspeth the idea on how to stop all of the minotaurs just so that there would be a big enough victory revel so that he could launch himself into godhood. His godhood was only able to be sustained by his imprisoning and sucking the power from Nyx-born animals. He also did just kill people for fun. Yes, Heliod and Erebos are both portrayed as major dicks in the novel, but other gods like Thassa, Nylea, Karametra, and Iroas are all portrayed positively. The gods, just like humans, aren't collectively good or bad, but on an individual level, they are easier to categorize.
Anyhow, Elspeth's death was poorly executed and made no sense in the structure of the novel. It feels like a cheap way to try to evoke an emotional response from readers.
So, to be clear, it was a member of a coverage team that claimed a definitive death for Elspeth; there's no panning out shot of Ajani weeping over a grave? That seems a little tenuous.
Not to pick on you, but "basic google-using skills" are one thing - "basic post formatting skills" are another. And since you seek to inform you probably achieve such a goal much better with the improved post.
[quote from="SecretInfiltrator" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/558578-elspeths-fate-novel-spoilers-ahead?comment=28"]Because it is an important information?
It is important Storyline information. Hence I suggest the Stroyline forum.
Because 95% of the Rumor Mill visitors does not concern themselves with story and does not read Storyline?
People that do not concern themselves with the storyline do not concern themself with this information.
Because Wizards failed, as opposed to Xenagos's fate, to communicate this important event to these very people by cards?
Same is true for many other aspects of the narrative.
Because without this information, people will speculate about Elspeth returning in blocks to come? (not that it would stop anybody from it, as I see now - at least it looks like limited to potential Return to Theros...)
And when they do they can be pointed to the information - and once this thread disappears from the front page there will again be people speculating.
Because in Storyline, our rather small community discussed this event to death?
I don't post my custom cards or movie reviews in the Rumor Mill just because I don't get responses in the respective forum anymore.
Because with this info, it is less "speculation" and more of a fact?
The event is fact - Storyline fact. I only suggest Speculation due to the fact that you also draw conclusions from the narrative that are not verified.
Shall I continue?
I don't have a strong preference one way or the other?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Wow. I thought the creative team liked torturing her so much. I'm surprised they'd let that end.
Oh wait, Erebos what? Nope. They're still at it. Now she's trapped in Hell (again) but this time it's because one of her white-aligned friends betrayed her! See, I knew something was wrong. The art of Deicide has Elspeth winning.
Is it weird that I liked the way it happened? It kind of brings planeswalkers down from a god-like level of existence. Yeah, they can travel from world to world and are beings of great power, but a blade to the heart (does Ashiok have one?) can kill them all the same. This also brings to mind many of the heroic deeds performed by some walkers. Gideon could have potentially died fighting for the Boros. Garruk could have been ripped apart by Liliana's zombies (did that actually happen? Innistrad is kind of a grey area.)
After all, every now and then we need a reminder that Superman has a rock allergy.
I'm glad they killed her. It shows that wizards Isn't afraid to kill off main planeswalkers and characters. yes, the ending was crappy, and it wasn't a fitting end, but an end nonetheless. i know they did kill of venser, but i don't consider him a main planeswalker. he has only had 1 iteration as a planeswalker, whereas elspeth has had 3
I'm glad they killed her. It shows that wizards Isn't afraid to kill off main planeswalkers and characters. yes, the ending was crappy, and it wasn't a fitting end, but an end nonetheless. i know they did kill of venser, but i don't consider him a main planeswalker. he has only had 1 iteration as a planeswalker, whereas elspeth has had 3
Venser was however an old school planeswalker and had some history on his side.
apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun
Seems like a pretty good reason to me. FDR and Churchill were abusive authoritarian jerks but we still get that Hitler is the bad guy.
Honestly this whole thread seems to indicate why the Magic storylines have been so mediocre to bad in terms of narrative structure. The moment someone character is less "I am obviously the bad guy" than the Eldrazi or Yawgmoth people get so confused they can't stand up anymore.
The irony. She kills Xenagos because he is against the gods and thinks they are pricks. And after her victory, she's getting killed by a god because he is a prick. Xenagos was right all along, even if the power was too much for him to keep his ideals pure.
So, I see a lot of people contemplating a BW Elspeth as a returned.
Pulling from the Planeswalking Guide, Part 3:
"When sentient, mortal beings die on Theros, they pass into its Underworld. They dwell in this eternally gray realm without sun or night under the watch of Erebos, god of the Underworld. But over the centuries, many denizens of the Underworld have escaped and returned to the sunlit realm of the living. They are called the Noston (from nostos, "to return home"), or the Returned."
I think it could be feasible that her death in Theros is just a timed existence that can be reversed. Her death is not permanent, she is left to linger in the Underworld.
"Loss of identity. To leave the Underworld, beings must give up their identity and their very faces, each of which becomes an unsettling surface with eyeholes and a mouth. This doesn't mean that the Returned have no personality and no memory of anything, however. One's name and past are forgotten, but skills and personality are retained. That is, the events and relationships of the mortal's life are lost, but the results of those events are intact (such as speech or the ability to play music). In addition, the Returned lose the ability to form the long-term memories on which relationships are based—they are unable to "build a new life," as it were."
"Sentient, sapient zombies. The Returned are undead in the most actual sense. When they return to the living realm, they don't return to life. They need water and air but not food. The Returned form communities, experience fleeting emotions, and follow daily routines, but their existence is a shadow play, because without an identity or an ability to nurture long-term relationships, the elements of their "lives" have no weight or substance."
So, she could leave this realm one day, hardly a full version of herself; but, her spark could still be intact according to these rules of the Returned. There is no life when they return, one could argue they no longer are organic material but a macabre fabric of forcefully-living dead material.
It's from this lore that her death is only a new beginning for her character. She will never be the same, and there will be tumult in how the spark can impact the status of being a Returned. However, one could argue that this state of form provides the perfect shield for a future battle with Phyrexians - she cannot be compleated in this state. Who knows if they go this route? But, on Theros, a death is not an end.
I really don't mind that she died. Planeswalkers are a dime a dozen now, and I don't particularly like the current concept of them. If they're not at the level with the legendary creatures or armies or whatever on the planes then please make them more exposed. For instance Jace is immortal and he's never ever going to go away because he's a popular (read:lame gary-stu) character insert. I'm more upset that Xenagos died because he had a whole two minutes of fame for being a mischievous god and planeswalker and yet he got pooped on by some lame sword.
Elspeth died on Theros, so her soul is no doubt now in the underworld with Erebos. Phenax and Athreos indicate that the dead on Theros can become gods. So it's possible that Erebos, who detests Heliod and is known to sympathize with unfortunate souls, and/or the leonine who have always been anti-pantheon on Theroscould conspire to follow in Xenagos' footsteps and bring about Elspeth, God of Hope. Elspeth, God of Justice! ELSPETH, GOD OF THE SUN!
Elspeth died on Theros, so her soul is no doubt now in the underworld with Erebos. Phenax and Athreos indicate that the dead on Theros can become gods. So it's possible that Erebos, who detests Heliod and is known to sympathize with unfortunate souls, and/or the leonine who have always been anti-pantheon on Theroscould conspire to follow in Xenagos' footsteps and bring about Elspeth, God of Hope. Elspeth, God of Justice! ELSPETH, GOD OF THE SUN!
I'm sure we haven't seen the end of Elspeth... Since she is now in Nyx we will see her again. I think in a similar fashion on they how they made Jace. They will eventually return to Theros and make Elspeth the sun god. Or at least bring her back from Nyx for some reason....
I'm getting really tired of seeing this misconception...
Xenagos was not a "good guy", not in the least, he was a horrible person who did horrible things and deserved what he got.
That's another failing of this block; they did a piss-poor job of conveying on the cards why we should be rooting for Xenagos's defeat, especially in light of the fact that the gods he's opposing are horrible people as well.
I mean, apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun, and apparently him becoming a god was damaging the fabric of Theros. But the only reason I know that is because I frequent the MTGSalvation storyline forums. The cards paint him as more of a party animal who's trying to stick it to the man. Which is actually something people can sympathize with, especially when "the man" is an ***hole like Heliod.
I can understand not putting every plot detail on a card, but why the badguy is a bad guy seems like a pretty important message to make sure you convey.
Xenagos is a true psychopath in the novels. He staged the minotaurs' siege of Akros AND gave Elspeth the idea on how to stop all of the minotaurs just so that there would be a big enough victory revel so that he could launch himself into godhood. His godhood was only able to be sustained by his imprisoning and sucking the power from Nyx-born animals. He also did just kill people for fun. Yes, Heliod and Erebos are both portrayed as major dicks in the novel, but other gods like Thassa, Nylea, Karametra, and Iroas are all portrayed positively. The gods, just like humans, aren't collectively good or bad, but on an individual level, they are easier to categorize.
That's the novel, though. Barely anyone reads the novels; that's why they switched to ebooks. For good or for ill, the vast majority of Magic players get their info on the storyline from the cards.
apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun
Seems like a pretty good reason to me. FDR and Churchill were abusive authoritarian jerks but we still get that Hitler is the bad guy.
Honestly this whole thread seems to indicate why the Magic storylines have been so mediocre to bad in terms of narrative structure. The moment someone character is less "I am obviously the bad guy" than the Eldrazi or Yawgmoth people get so confused they can't stand up anymore.
But the only reason I know that is because I frequent the MTGSalvation storyline forums.
That was kind of an important sentence. The vast, vast majority of Magic players don't do that.
Seriously you two, just look at how many people, in this thread alone, were rooting for Xenagos.
If your villain is supposed to be as homicidal as the friggin' Joker, and yet a large chunk of your audience thinks he's a pretty cool bro, then you have failed as a storyteller.
I have to agree with those saying she will return. My question is, if her spark stays with her in the underworld,could she potentially walk away on her own? If the "returned" come back with no memory of their past experiences, but are still sculpted by it, then she could indeed be dead but still have her spark. I hope she comes back from the dead in the future and kills all the Gods.
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RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
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Then she goes to Mirrodin and (fruitlessly) strives to cleanse it of the Phyrexian infestation.
After that, she goes to Theros and is tasked by a god to slay another god, and in return, he murders her out of pure jealousy and egotism?
Heliod needs his existence revoked, and quickly.
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You're thinking of Gideon. Elspeth's never been to Zendikar.
Xenagos was not a "good guy", not in the least, he was a horrible person who did horrible things and deserved what he got.
Although to be fair, it kinda sucks since he was a pretty interesting villain and it would have been interesting to have him show up occasionally in other stories, manipulating things, sorta like Nico Bolas, only a Satyr-God instead of an Elder Dragon.
Sorry, I thought that I am clear enough for anyone with basic google-using skills to go and find the source. Added quotation marks and link to the source page, hope that is satisfactory for you now. Who exactly said that is not available from that page.
Because it is an important information?
Because 95% of the Rumor Mill visitors does not concern themselves with story and does not read Storyline?
Because Wizards failed, as opposed to Xenagos's fate, to communicate this important event to these very people by cards?
Because without this information, people will speculate about Elspeth returning in blocks to come? (not that it would stop anybody from it, as I see now - at least it looks like limited to potential Return to Theros...)
Because in Storyline, our rather small community discussed this event to death?
Because with this info, it is less "speculation" and more of a fact?
Shall I continue?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
That's another failing of this block; they did a piss-poor job of conveying on the cards why we should be rooting for Xenagos's defeat, especially in light of the fact that the gods he's opposing are horrible people as well.
I mean, apparently he's a homicidal psycho who kills people for fun, and apparently him becoming a god was damaging the fabric of Theros. But the only reason I know that is because I frequent the MTGSalvation storyline forums. The cards paint him as more of a party animal who's trying to stick it to the man. Which is actually something people can sympathize with, especially when "the man" is an ***hole like Heliod.
I can understand not putting every plot detail on a card, but why the badguy is a bad guy seems like a pretty important message to make sure you convey.
She'll be some kind of super champion of Heliod + Erebos. But a hollow shell of her former self.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I'm honestly not quite sure what she meant by that. Not the end of Theros's story? Not the end of Elspeth's story? Or simply not the end of Magic's story?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FBlsg1PBZI
Xenagos is a true psychopath in the novels. He staged the minotaurs' siege of Akros AND gave Elspeth the idea on how to stop all of the minotaurs just so that there would be a big enough victory revel so that he could launch himself into godhood. His godhood was only able to be sustained by his imprisoning and sucking the power from Nyx-born animals. He also did just kill people for fun. Yes, Heliod and Erebos are both portrayed as major dicks in the novel, but other gods like Thassa, Nylea, Karametra, and Iroas are all portrayed positively. The gods, just like humans, aren't collectively good or bad, but on an individual level, they are easier to categorize.
Anyhow, Elspeth's death was poorly executed and made no sense in the structure of the novel. It feels like a cheap way to try to evoke an emotional response from readers.
Not to pick on you, but "basic google-using skills" are one thing - "basic post formatting skills" are another. And since you seek to inform you probably achieve such a goal much better with the improved post.
It is important Storyline information. Hence I suggest the Stroyline forum.
People that do not concern themselves with the storyline do not concern themself with this information.
Same is true for many other aspects of the narrative.
And when they do they can be pointed to the information - and once this thread disappears from the front page there will again be people speculating.
I don't post my custom cards or movie reviews in the Rumor Mill just because I don't get responses in the respective forum anymore.
The event is fact - Storyline fact. I only suggest Speculation due to the fact that you also draw conclusions from the narrative that are not verified.
I don't have a strong preference one way or the other?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Oh wait, Erebos what? Nope. They're still at it. Now she's trapped in Hell (again) but this time it's because one of her white-aligned friends betrayed her! See, I knew something was wrong. The art of Deicide has Elspeth winning.
After all, every now and then we need a reminder that Superman has a rock allergy.
Venser was however an old school planeswalker and had some history on his side.
Seems like a pretty good reason to me. FDR and Churchill were abusive authoritarian jerks but we still get that Hitler is the bad guy.
Honestly this whole thread seems to indicate why the Magic storylines have been so mediocre to bad in terms of narrative structure. The moment someone character is less "I am obviously the bad guy" than the Eldrazi or Yawgmoth people get so confused they can't stand up anymore.
Pulling from the Planeswalking Guide, Part 3:
"When sentient, mortal beings die on Theros, they pass into its Underworld. They dwell in this eternally gray realm without sun or night under the watch of Erebos, god of the Underworld. But over the centuries, many denizens of the Underworld have escaped and returned to the sunlit realm of the living. They are called the Noston (from nostos, "to return home"), or the Returned."
I think it could be feasible that her death in Theros is just a timed existence that can be reversed. Her death is not permanent, she is left to linger in the Underworld.
"Loss of identity. To leave the Underworld, beings must give up their identity and their very faces, each of which becomes an unsettling surface with eyeholes and a mouth. This doesn't mean that the Returned have no personality and no memory of anything, however. One's name and past are forgotten, but skills and personality are retained. That is, the events and relationships of the mortal's life are lost, but the results of those events are intact (such as speech or the ability to play music). In addition, the Returned lose the ability to form the long-term memories on which relationships are based—they are unable to "build a new life," as it were."
"Sentient, sapient zombies. The Returned are undead in the most actual sense. When they return to the living realm, they don't return to life. They need water and air but not food. The Returned form communities, experience fleeting emotions, and follow daily routines, but their existence is a shadow play, because without an identity or an ability to nurture long-term relationships, the elements of their "lives" have no weight or substance."
So, she could leave this realm one day, hardly a full version of herself; but, her spark could still be intact according to these rules of the Returned. There is no life when they return, one could argue they no longer are organic material but a macabre fabric of forcefully-living dead material.
It's from this lore that her death is only a new beginning for her character. She will never be the same, and there will be tumult in how the spark can impact the status of being a Returned. However, one could argue that this state of form provides the perfect shield for a future battle with Phyrexians - she cannot be compleated in this state. Who knows if they go this route? But, on Theros, a death is not an end.
So, we now have our Return to Theros story.
That's the novel, though. Barely anyone reads the novels; that's why they switched to ebooks. For good or for ill, the vast majority of Magic players get their info on the storyline from the cards.
Apparently you missed the part where I said:
That was kind of an important sentence. The vast, vast majority of Magic players don't do that.
Seriously you two, just look at how many people, in this thread alone, were rooting for Xenagos.
If your villain is supposed to be as homicidal as the friggin' Joker, and yet a large chunk of your audience thinks he's a pretty cool bro, then you have failed as a storyteller.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.