I think that this deserves finally its own main RM thread, because it is kind of a major and lasting-effect thing.
Those who read Godsend part 2 already known the following:
Elspeth defeated Xenagos, stabbed him with Godsend and his body fell down to Theros, most probably being dead. That means no future version of Xenagos.
But as the "reward", Heliod told her that no champion shall know more than her god and because she knows and has seen places he does not know, he stabbed her with the sword-spear, that shattered afterwards.
Ajani takes her gravely wounded form back to Theros, and the last thing we read is Elspeth's darkening vision, as Erebos's agents close to her.
Elspeth was both the card everyone was aiming for and the one everyone feared. She shaped the format and was responsible for a number of the other cards on this list being as good as they were only in the context of a format that was, for all intents and purposes, hers from the moment she set foot on Theros. And on a weekend when it was announced that the character Elspeth perished on Theros, it was a fitting send-off that she did most of the slaying here this weekend.
So, we can conclude that Elspeth is truly dead, joining Venser and probably Xenagos too.
That also means most probably no future versions of this planeswalker.
EDIT: Just realized this was exactly my 7000th post on MTGS. Neat
MODEDIT: I've merged the Theros Block reels thread here. ENJOY A VIDEO!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I was as happy to read your lines indicating Xenagos is likely over and done than sad to read that Elsepth is probably suffering the same fate.
Anyway, this whole block story showed that not only Heliod but all Theros gods are villains, and I hope that one day they'll be overthrown (read: destroyed).
While I am sad to see her go, the implications it has for Wizard's stance on letting beloved characters die for solid story reasons makes me very happy. Perhaps we can now have some tensions when planeswalkers fight, as I have a tendency to just assume that somehow they will make it out alive.
No, Elspeth, why? Jesus, that girl had it tough in life :(. I hope she will return one day.
I think that you missed the point of this thread then...;)
But seriously, she was so damaged that this is in fact a relief for her. But her death should have been more heroic and meaningful. As such, she fell victim to a whim of one of the biggest self-centered egotistical jerks in recent Magic history, who was one of the main reasons why the conflict escalated in first place. And he suffered NOTHING for it.
After such a rough life, she deserved better.
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
While I am sad to see her go, the implications it has for Wizard's stance on letting beloved characters die for solid story reasons makes me very happy. Perhaps we can now have some tensions when planeswalkers fight, as I have a tendency to just assume that somehow they will make it out alive.
Solid story reasons?!
Her death is about as justified and meaningful as Tasha Yar's.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't know whether it's a good or bad thing that Elspeth's long-term goals weren't involved with her (supposed) death. If she were to die, I would expect it to be at the hands of Phyrexia.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
No... Not Elspeth... Please no... She's my favorite Planeswalker character and I really don't want her to go, her story is so sad and full of pain, it doesn't deserve to end like this... Elspeth is one of the best Magic characters... why did they have to kill her? From the sounds of it, it didn't even really add to the story either... God damn it, I am so upset right now.
Part of the reason I loved Theros so much was that Elspeth had the starring role, and now this?
*sigh*
I wasn't entirely listening sadly, but during that MaRo and other people interview, I believe a woman said something about Elspeth's death. She was possibly the novels author? Anyway, I think I heard her say Eslpeth died, but that wasn't the end of the story/of her story? I wish I had listened, did anyone get that clearly?
I feel for Xenagos. The guy was just a partyboy! And, he'd only just arrived as a Planeswalker. I just hope he turns out to be exiled or something, so that we can get new versions of him some time. We get a Satyr Planeswalker, and they kill him off immediately. Bleh.
And I'd be so much happier if they killed off Jace and Chandra. God knows I've seen enough of those two.
While I am sad to see her go, the implications it has for Wizard's stance on letting beloved characters die for solid story reasons makes me very happy. Perhaps we can now have some tensions when planeswalkers fight, as I have a tendency to just assume that somehow they will make it out alive.
Solid story reasons?!
Her death is about as justified and meaningful as Tasha Yar's.
Excellent parable. I would not put it better.
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
While I am sad to see her go, the implications it has for Wizard's stance on letting beloved characters die for solid story reasons makes me very happy. Perhaps we can now have some tensions when planeswalkers fight, as I have a tendency to just assume that somehow they will make it out alive.
Solid story reasons?!
Her death is about as justified and meaningful as Tasha Yar's.
See, it's this that makes me nervous. Based on everything I've heard, Elspeth's death was stupid, meaningless, and narratively unsatisfying. A lot of people are complaining that it was poorly handled. I'm worried that, if there's enough of an uproar over this, the creative team will get the wrong idea from this, and stop killing off major characters altogether, which would remove what little tension or gravitas remains in MtG's narrative.
(Can you tell that I've lost faith in the people who write Magic's storyline?)
In Return to Theros, Daxos the Returned slays Cerberus to free Elspeth from the underworld.
Were Elspeth and Ajani not capable of planeswalking from Nyx?
Both of them were immensely exhausted from their fight with Xenagos, to the point where one of them mentions not having enough energy to planeswalk.
We have also been told planeswalkers can't walker in or out of Nyx.
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βThere are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It's an appropriately crappy end for one of the least coherent block storylines.
For starters, we have a mysterious hole in the Theros pantheon (the RG god) which to my knowledge is not explained or even noticed by any of the characters. Xenagos fills that hole and the existing gods react by throwing a tantrum. Everyone blames him instead of blaming those who are actually doing it β even our planeswalker "heroes", who should know better.
And now we have Xenagos's undeserved death, followed by Elspeth's probable death. In Greek mythology, when tragedy befalls a hero it's supposed to be because of a failing in the hero's character. You aren't supposed to get killed by a god for following that god's instructions.
Fortunately it's vague enough that they can easily retcon it in a way which doesn't sound too crazy.
In Return to Theros, Daxos the Returned slays Cerberus to free Elspeth from the underworld.
One of the big things about Theros is the very special treatment of the afterlife as a physical place from which people can return. I have said so before regarding speculation that Ajani might be the planeswalker to die, but it just as easily refers to Elspeth.
A permanent death for Elspeth would also be quiet unsatisfying - though unsatisfying death's are not unheard of. I could see this be a story point that we will return to that actually is used to develop the character by returning Elspeth from the death... as a Returned. I wouldn't like it since Elspeth's story arc doesn't fit it any better than dying and staying dead, but it's something to consider.
I know meaningful character death's aren't reversed, but if you put them in the same setting as Rescue from the Underworld, then that makes the context of the death potentially meaningful as well.
If this is a farewell, I hope the next planeswalker death is executed differently.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I agree that Elspeth's final scene was purposely written vaguely. Noting that, keep in mind the sentence you're quoting is from a member of their coverage team. His understanding of the story events is likely as definitive as ours.
good. If someone had to die, I'm happy it was her and not Ajani.
And this confirms once more my theory that at the end Xenagos was good guy. He was a rebel, he treated the status quo of Theros so that fascist white god, scared of losing his power, make him look like the and guy and even got someone else to do the dirty job for him.
In Xenagos we trust!
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Those who read Godsend part 2 already known the following:
Elspeth defeated Xenagos, stabbed him with Godsend and his body fell down to Theros, most probably being dead. That means no future version of Xenagos.
But as the "reward", Heliod told her that no champion shall know more than her god and because she knows and has seen places he does not know, he stabbed her with the sword-spear, that shattered afterwards.
Ajani takes her gravely wounded form back to Theros, and the last thing we read is Elspeth's darkening vision, as Erebos's agents close to her.
It was kind of ambiguous.
But now we have the PT JOU Top 5 cards section, and this quote.
So, we can conclude that Elspeth is truly dead, joining Venser and probably Xenagos too.
That also means most probably no future versions of this planeswalker.
EDIT: Just realized this was exactly my 7000th post on MTGS. Neat
MODEDIT: I've merged the Theros Block reels thread here. ENJOY A VIDEO!
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I hope he dies if we ever return.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
So then I'm guessing Ajani truly is the standard White Planeswalker now? Along with Jace, Garruk, Liliana, Chandra?
Anyway, this whole block story showed that not only Heliod but all Theros gods are villains, and I hope that one day they'll be overthrown (read: destroyed).
I think that you missed the point of this thread then...;)
But seriously, she was so damaged that this is in fact a relief for her. But her death should have been more heroic and meaningful. As such, she fell victim to a whim of one of the biggest self-centered egotistical jerks in recent Magic history, who was one of the main reasons why the conflict escalated in first place. And he suffered NOTHING for it.
After such a rough life, she deserved better.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Solid story reasons?!
Her death is about as justified and meaningful as Tasha Yar's.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Were Elspeth and Ajani not capable of planeswalking from Nyx?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Part of the reason I loved Theros so much was that Elspeth had the starring role, and now this?
*sigh*
I feel for Xenagos. The guy was just a partyboy! And, he'd only just arrived as a Planeswalker. I just hope he turns out to be exiled or something, so that we can get new versions of him some time. We get a Satyr Planeswalker, and they kill him off immediately. Bleh.
And I'd be so much happier if they killed off Jace and Chandra. God knows I've seen enough of those two.
Excellent parable. I would not put it better.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Thank you.
See, it's this that makes me nervous. Based on everything I've heard, Elspeth's death was stupid, meaningless, and narratively unsatisfying. A lot of people are complaining that it was poorly handled. I'm worried that, if there's enough of an uproar over this, the creative team will get the wrong idea from this, and stop killing off major characters altogether, which would remove what little tension or gravitas remains in MtG's narrative.
(Can you tell that I've lost faith in the people who write Magic's storyline?)
She's gonna end up like Persephone.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
We have also been told planeswalkers can't walker in or out of Nyx.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
For starters, we have a mysterious hole in the Theros pantheon (the RG god) which to my knowledge is not explained or even noticed by any of the characters. Xenagos fills that hole and the existing gods react by throwing a tantrum. Everyone blames him instead of blaming those who are actually doing it β even our planeswalker "heroes", who should know better.
And now we have Xenagos's undeserved death, followed by Elspeth's probable death. In Greek mythology, when tragedy befalls a hero it's supposed to be because of a failing in the hero's character. You aren't supposed to get killed by a god for following that god's instructions.
Fortunately it's vague enough that they can easily retcon it in a way which doesn't sound too crazy.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Also why does this in the Rumor Mill? Speculation? Storyline?
My though, except:
One of the big things about Theros is the very special treatment of the afterlife as a physical place from which people can return. I have said so before regarding speculation that Ajani might be the planeswalker to die, but it just as easily refers to Elspeth.
A permanent death for Elspeth would also be quiet unsatisfying - though unsatisfying death's are not unheard of. I could see this be a story point that we will return to that actually is used to develop the character by returning Elspeth from the death... as a Returned. I wouldn't like it since Elspeth's story arc doesn't fit it any better than dying and staying dead, but it's something to consider.
I know meaningful character death's aren't reversed, but if you put them in the same setting as Rescue from the Underworld, then that makes the context of the death potentially meaningful as well.
If this is a farewell, I hope the next planeswalker death is executed differently.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
And this confirms once more my theory that at the end Xenagos was good guy. He was a rebel, he treated the status quo of Theros so that fascist white god, scared of losing his power, make him look like the and guy and even got someone else to do the dirty job for him.
In Xenagos we trust!
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm