"Become a warlord and embody the power of the infamous dragons."
So it might be more evidence to support the idea that Kahns of Tarkir will be a building armies theme.
Sounds really fun. Wonder if there will be any gems for my Lovisa Coldeyes commander deck. Maybe even a new mono red legend that is a (barbarian, berserker, or warrior).
I have three guesses on how they will be doing the "build an army" idea.
#1) Much much token generation.
#2) 1cmc 1/1 creatures that you may have any number of it in your deck. One for each color that might have like one keyword attached to them at most like first strike.
#3) Many lord-esque creatures that buff each other and are really cheap to cast, like 1 to 4cmc at most.
#1 Seems like it won't work. Just because I don't see the color pie allowing every color to allowing every color to be efficient enough at making tokens that the amount is considered an army. That's more white and green, with red being tertiary.
I really don't see #2 happening. It just seems......lazy? Besides, by the laws of nature, one would be better than the others and could potentially be degenerate. It's a rare ability, and I just don't see them making a cycle out of it.
#3 is my favorite. It's also plausible. Tribal is a great theme, especially with a tag line about building armies. And every color has done it. White has done it with humans. Blue has used Merfolk. Black did zombies. Red covered goblins. Green had it's elves. I'm sure they can find other tribes that fit Tarkir. White can still use humans. Blue....I don't know, I can't think of a blue tribe for Tarkir, any help? Black can use zombies (a wartorn plane? There's gotta be mountains of dead people!). Red can use whatever that thing in front is (Ogre? Troll? Giant?). And Green can use the dragon shamans that we know exist on Tarkir, the ones that worship the dragons and channel their spirits.
"Become a warlord and embody the power of the infamous dragons."
So it might be more evidence to support the idea that Kahns of Tarkir will be a building armies theme.
Sounds really fun. Wonder if there will be any gems for my Lovisa Coldeyes commander deck. Maybe even a new mono red legend that is a (barbarian, berserker, or warrior).
I have three guesses on how they will be doing the "build an army" idea.
#1) Much much token generation.
#2) 1cmc 1/1 creatures that you may have any number of it in your deck. One for each color that might have like one keyword attached to them at most like first strike.
#3) Many lord-esque creatures that buff each other and are really cheap to cast, like 1 to 4cmc at most.
#1 Seems like it won't work. Just because I don't see the color pie allowing every color to allowing every color to be efficient enough at making tokens that the amount is considered an army. That's more white and green, with red being tertiary.
I really don't see #2 happening. It just seems......lazy? Besides, by the laws of nature, one would be better than the others and could potentially be degenerate. It's a rare ability, and I just don't see them making a cycle out of it.
#3 is my favorite. It's also plausible. Tribal is a great theme, especially with a tag line about building armies. And every color has done it. White has done it with humans. Blue has used Merfolk. Black did zombies. Red covered goblins. Green had it's elves. I'm sure they can find other tribes that fit Tarkir. White can still use humans. Blue....I don't know, I can't think of a blue tribe for Tarkir, any help? Black can use zombies (a wartorn plane? There's gotta be mountains of dead people!). Red can use whatever that thing in front is (Ogre? Troll? Giant?). And Green can use the dragon shamans that we know exist on Tarkir, the ones that worship the dragons and channel their spirits.
My favorite is 1 and to be honest they could have it so that the token generation and the quality of those tokens is unique to each color. Coral Barrier is a good example in that Blue would be super defensive at the beginning and then build up over time, possibly similar to Chasm Skulker even though it was an outsider designed card. And since black has some convoke and two token generators waste not and Necromancer's Stockpile. Plus blue does have some interesting cards for combat tricks such as Ætherspouts and Polymorphist's Jest that would allow it to use a smaller force more effectively.
At first I liked the Idea of option 2 but Verox Kinaltor has a good point so I will have to side with him on it.
Option 3 is also very viable, we might get cards like Howlpack Alpha that buff but also generate tokens.
When something is a set/block theme, they find a way for all colours to interact with it somehow, perhaps stretching the colour-pie a little. I don't think they would have too much trouble allowing all colours a lot of tokens anyhow. Black's can do it with life-payment, blue can do it through copying, red's could be hasty offensive die-at-end-of-turn..
Crazy idea that probably won't happen. At least not now, but could it ever?
There has been some speculation both regarding dwarves and fortifications. Both are fairly baseless, although signals from Blogatog are that they will both return some day.
Dwarves have been tied to land-destruction. Good fortifications could need some decent land-destruction to keep them in check. Good fortifications could also be used to keep land-destruction in check, so that while in standard, land-destruction are perhaps important sideboard cards but not able to be a real deck due to all the fortifications.
However, this would introduce more land-destruction to modern, and perhaps make it a slightly more viable deck there. It is something that a significant subset would want, but with the power of the Modern format it would probably not be a problem-deck. Also, there are few new players in modern, which I assume is one of the reasons why Wizards want to keep LD out of Standard.
You're SO not the first. I don't know how many times I've come to this thread to see what is new only to be disappointed by yet another suggestion of horsemanship or banding.
I would think that Horsemanship would be a 10 on the storm scale, but it turns out I was wrong as my quotes below would show. For one, if there is horsemanship in KTK, it would seem absurd in standard and modern that stuff like Nessian Courser can't block them. Kinda similar to how all things with wings should fly (which I understand is now a part of the design/creative paradigm. Poor Whippoorwill.)
abalidoth said: Have you ever attempted to create a "fixed" Banding? It seems like there's a lot of things that could be done with a "these creatures attack as a group" mechanic.
I would argue we’ve done multiple “fixed” banding mechanics. Soulbond being the most recent.
And, to be fair. About my own land-destruction speculation:
chantryg said: If Lightning Bolt, once "too powerful to reprint" came back for a while, could we see a similar reversal with Stone Rain or Counterspell? Or are the latter two "unfun" enough that the chances are slim to none? (Storm Scale might be appropriate here).
I believe the return of Stone Rain or Counterspell are both possible given the correct environment but it’s also possible we never see them again.
I actually think a walls sub-theme would be neat if the walls did something else besides just sitting and blocking. Coral Barrier is interesting and along the lines of what I'm talking about.
The army by means of token generation and small creatures is pretty much a given. I think the "artifacts as siege weaponry" speculation is pretty spot-on too. There's already a lot of support in Theros block for both of these things.
If any of these happen to be true, I'll be pretty happy. Even though it seems like people generally dislike board states that are big and elaborate, I'm a fan of war games and I genuinely like games of Magic where choosing when to attack, block, and trade become very difficult and messy choices to make.
Crazy idea that probably won't happen. At least not now, but could it ever?
There has been some speculation both regarding dwarves and fortifications. Both are fairly baseless, although signals from Blogatog are that they will both return some day.
Dwarves have been tied to land-destruction. Good fortifications could need some decent land-destruction to keep them in check. Good fortifications could also be used to keep land-destruction in check, so that while in standard, land-destruction are perhaps important sideboard cards but not able to be a real deck due to all the fortifications.
However, this would introduce more land-destruction to modern, and perhaps make it a slightly more viable deck there. It is something that a significant subset would want, but with the power of the Modern format it would probably not be a problem-deck. Also, there are few new players in modern, which I assume is one of the reasons why Wizards want to keep LD out of Standard.
Knowing Wizards, I can see it being a more narrow land destruction. A stone rain that could only hit fortified lands.
I´m sorry but this whole "Build an army" thing isn´t that so dull and non-creative? I mean it´s like all Magic is about is creatures, creatures and more creatures. I miss mechanics like Extort, Cipher, Miracle and so on that requires a bit of thinking instead of "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you"
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
I´m sorry but this whole "Build an army" thing isn´t that so dull and non-creative? I mean it´s like all Magic is about is creatures, creatures and more creatures. I miss mechanics like Extort, Cipher, Miracle and so on that requires a bit of thinking instead of "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you"
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
Every block can be boiled down to "build an army". As that is how it always just been about and how it is done. It is also something we know none of the mechanics for. You maybe pleasantly surprised.
I´m sorry but this whole "Build an army" thing isn´t that so dull and non-creative? I mean it´s like all Magic is about is creatures, creatures and more creatures. I miss mechanics like Extort, Cipher, Miracle and so on that requires a bit of thinking instead of "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you"
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
Every block can be boiled down to "build an army". As that is how it always just been about and how it is done. It is also something we know none of the mechanics for. You maybe pleasantly surprised.
Huh, my fortune cookie today said I would be pleasantly surprised soon. So it must have been referring to what you just said.
I´m sorry but this whole "Build an army" thing isn´t that so dull and non-creative? I mean it´s like all Magic is about is creatures, creatures and more creatures. I miss mechanics like Extort, Cipher, Miracle and so on that requires a bit of thinking instead of "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you"
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
No offence but you picked really bad examples.
Miracle is random, you might draw it or you might not. The only why to use is effectively is to use only miracle cards or to have draw manipulation.
Extort is really simple, pay extra and poke for life gain. Not much planing there.
And Cipher again requires only a un-blockable creature and you just keep swinging with maybe the need of protection. But then also means that you are focused on a creature which undermines your argument.
Two of these need little to no thought and cipher only needs a little planning to work. And might I add that two of these are still in standard and yet you speak as though they are long gone.
And in defense of the army the Build an army theme, your thinking might be too shallow. If you are leading an army things like strength and numbers do not always mean that you win if you attack. We could see combat trick spells that you use before, during, or after attacking. We might see cards that are used to gather info for the sake of gaining success in the war, like looking at their hand or what they will draw. The theme is a world in which warring factions are clashing and there is more to war than having the most or even the biggest gun.
So to say that a Build the army theme would simply be a "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you" as you would put it is to underestimate the idea. For all we know building the army will be the easy part, leading it to victory through tactics and planning will be the important part.
I´m sorry but this whole "Build an army" thing isn´t that so dull and non-creative? I mean it´s like all Magic is about is creatures, creatures and more creatures. I miss mechanics like Extort, Cipher, Miracle and so on that requires a bit of thinking instead of "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you"
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
No offence but you picked really bad examples.
Miracle is random, you might draw it or you might not. The only why to use is effectively is to use only miracle cards or to have draw manipulation.
Extort is really simple, pay extra and poke for life gain. Not much planing there.
And Cipher again requires only a un-blockable creature and you just keep swinging with maybe the need of protection. But then also means that you are focused on a creature which undermines your argument.
Two of these need little to no thought and cipher only needs a little planning to work. And might I add that two of these are still in standard and yet you speak as though they are long gone.
And in defense of the army the Build an army theme, your thinking might be too shallow. If you are leading an army things like strength and numbers do not always mean that you win if you attack. We could see combat trick spells that you use before, during, or after attacking. We might see cards that are used to gather info for the sake of gaining success in the war, like looking at their hand or what they will draw. The theme is a world in which warring factions are clashing and there is more to war than having the most or even the biggest gun.
So to say that a Build the army theme would simply be a "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you" as you would put it is to underestimate the idea. For all we know building the army will be the easy part, leading it to victory through tactics and planning will be the important part.
Okay I admit that the mechanics I talked about doesn´t require much thinking either tho Miracle together with Scry to see when the right cards are coming is at least more fun and requires more setup than mindless attacking with tokens / big creatures.
I hope you´re right about your ideas for "Building an army" They sounds intersting and would require more than just mindless attacking
All colors have gotten quite nice token generation methods.
Naya doesn't really need to be covered, I think? (I would point out that Red has been getting more varied tokens than Goblins... Young Pyromancer is probably the king of recent cards in this vein.) Notable possible plant was Flurry of Horns.
For Blue, I don't think anyone can forget Talrand's Invocation. 2 2/2 Flyers for 4 is... quite over the top for Blue from a token perspective. One of the biggest chase cards for Blue from Theros block was mainly because of its token generation (Master of Waves). There's also Rise of Eagles, which while not a good card definitely seems randomly inserted into its set.
Black, OTOH, received 'make (tapped or not) 2/2 Zombie creature tokens' as a major subset of cards in Innistrad block.
All in all, the only color that really needed a buff in terms of token production is Blue, and it has certainly gotten that since the release of Theros last year.
Blue doesn't need to have good token generators in Khans. If every color would be doing the exact same thing, limited would be quite bland. If we assume different warlords for each color plotting and fighting against each other, the blue one would be setting traps in the form of contraptions/artifacts or maybe have some spies to gather information. Also the rise in graveyard related cards could indicate that the black warlord(s) try to win the everlasting war through attrition by scavenging and necromancing.
Blue doesn't need to have good token generators in Khans. If every color would be doing the exact same thing, limited would be quite bland. If we assume different warlords for each color plotting and fighting against each other, the blue one would be setting traps in the form of contraptions/artifacts or maybe have some spies to gather information. Also the rise in graveyard related cards could indicate that the black warlord(s) try to win the everlasting war through attrition by scavenging and necromancing.
Are you suggesting a Booby Trap reprint, or something similar?
If so, I'm down.
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Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
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You will accede my every command.
has maro said anything about if/when fortifications would ever appear in another set? I thought it was a really cool idea and I think a block with a lot of these types of cards would be pretty cool.
looks like this is the last thing he said about it:
In dissecting the main picture of the Tarkir warriors to see what we can hope for from the set, I've made a few obvious connections that I'd like to confirm/discuss;
Ogres as a prevalent creature type The grey men have more than one eye so they can't be cyclopes. They could be Orcs (much cooler, and Ogres are typically pink) or an entirely new creature type, but that's less likely.
Goblins(?) are present on Tarkir I'm strictly referring to the ugly little grey men on the bottom left (one has receding hair, another a helmet). While I'd bet they're a new art style of goblin for the new plane, they could easily be a separate species; someone more versed in older formats would have an easier time identifying those things.
No lack of dragon involvement Pretty obvious what with the trademark "Dragons of Tarkir", sarkhan's presence, and the huge smoke dragon in the background, but important none the less, considering the only information given to us was the lack of dragons present on the plane.
My main question; what else can anyone infer from our current information? Even this picture still has unanswered questions; who/what is that star-wars looking lady? is it relevant that everyone represents the same flag? how do you think such a barbarian-esque set will handle the fairer colors like blue and white?
I think Orcs are a strong contender for the "old thing" that people have been asking for. I'm actually kind of surprised it isn't just considered a given that that is in fact the case (pleasantly surprised, although I do think it's very likely this is still not what "confirmed" looks like).
As far as less barbarian oriented colours go, think of the duel decks: Speed vs. Cunning. From the duel deck blurb we're told that there are warlords who fight aggressively with speed, and those who favour a subtler approach. Presumably the latter will be at least partially blue, and will correspond to the control strategies in the block.
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Sounds really fun. Wonder if there will be any gems for my Lovisa Coldeyes commander deck. Maybe even a new mono red legend that is a (barbarian, berserker, or warrior).
I have three guesses on how they will be doing the "build an army" idea.
#1) Much much token generation.
#2) 1cmc 1/1 creatures that you may have any number of it in your deck. One for each color that might have like one keyword attached to them at most like first strike.
#3) Many lord-esque creatures that buff each other and are really cheap to cast, like 1 to 4cmc at most.
Lovisa Coldeyes the Barbaric Warlord (EDH)
Labyrinth Smackdown (Standard, RR Minotaur Tribal RR)
Jeopardy (Casual)
I really don't see #2 happening. It just seems......lazy? Besides, by the laws of nature, one would be better than the others and could potentially be degenerate. It's a rare ability, and I just don't see them making a cycle out of it.
#3 is my favorite. It's also plausible. Tribal is a great theme, especially with a tag line about building armies. And every color has done it. White has done it with humans. Blue has used Merfolk. Black did zombies. Red covered goblins. Green had it's elves. I'm sure they can find other tribes that fit Tarkir. White can still use humans. Blue....I don't know, I can't think of a blue tribe for Tarkir, any help? Black can use zombies (a wartorn plane? There's gotta be mountains of dead people!). Red can use whatever that thing in front is (Ogre? Troll? Giant?). And Green can use the dragon shamans that we know exist on Tarkir, the ones that worship the dragons and channel their spirits.
When asking for if something was stolen on Kamigawa:
Have some irony:
My favorite is 1 and to be honest they could have it so that the token generation and the quality of those tokens is unique to each color. Coral Barrier is a good example in that Blue would be super defensive at the beginning and then build up over time, possibly similar to Chasm Skulker even though it was an outsider designed card. And since black has some convoke and two token generators waste not and Necromancer's Stockpile. Plus blue does have some interesting cards for combat tricks such as Ætherspouts and Polymorphist's Jest that would allow it to use a smaller force more effectively.
At first I liked the Idea of option 2 but Verox Kinaltor has a good point so I will have to side with him on it.
Option 3 is also very viable, we might get cards like Howlpack Alpha that buff but also generate tokens.
Thoughts?
for example
EDIT: Also:
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Seems like we're getting a cycle here...
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
There has been some speculation both regarding dwarves and fortifications. Both are fairly baseless, although signals from Blogatog are that they will both return some day.
Dwarves have been tied to land-destruction. Good fortifications could need some decent land-destruction to keep them in check. Good fortifications could also be used to keep land-destruction in check, so that while in standard, land-destruction are perhaps important sideboard cards but not able to be a real deck due to all the fortifications.
However, this would introduce more land-destruction to modern, and perhaps make it a slightly more viable deck there. It is something that a significant subset would want, but with the power of the Modern format it would probably not be a problem-deck. Also, there are few new players in modern, which I assume is one of the reasons why Wizards want to keep LD out of Standard.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Edit:I see it was discussed earlier, gonna read.
You're SO not the first. I don't know how many times I've come to this thread to see what is new only to be disappointed by yet another suggestion of horsemanship or banding.
I would think that Horsemanship would be a 10 on the storm scale, but it turns out I was wrong as my quotes below would show. For one, if there is horsemanship in KTK, it would seem absurd in standard and modern that stuff like Nessian Courser can't block them. Kinda similar to how all things with wings should fly (which I understand is now a part of the design/creative paradigm. Poor Whippoorwill.)
Some quotes from Mark Rosewater:
-On Horsemanship
On banding:
on "fixed banding":
And, to be fair. About my own land-destruction speculation:
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
The army by means of token generation and small creatures is pretty much a given. I think the "artifacts as siege weaponry" speculation is pretty spot-on too. There's already a lot of support in Theros block for both of these things.
Theros already has somewhat of a military theme going on, with a lot of nice enablers for army style strategies (e.g. Launch the Fleet, Desperate Stand, Phalanx Leader).
Then there's the siege weaponry. Akroan Horse, Chariot of Victory, Deserter's Quarters (sort of), Juggernaut, and Hot Soup come to mind. Other flavorful artifacts include Sacred Armory, Armory of Iroas, and Hall of Triumph.
If any of these happen to be true, I'll be pretty happy. Even though it seems like people generally dislike board states that are big and elaborate, I'm a fan of war games and I genuinely like games of Magic where choosing when to attack, block, and trade become very difficult and messy choices to make.
U/R Delver
Knowing Wizards, I can see it being a more narrow land destruction. A stone rain that could only hit fortified lands.
Lovisa Coldeyes the Barbaric Warlord (EDH)
Labyrinth Smackdown (Standard, RR Minotaur Tribal RR)
Jeopardy (Casual)
Sure you have to win which is mostly done by having creatures but it would just be nice if mechanics wasn´t tied so much to creatures all the time
Every block can be boiled down to "build an army". As that is how it always just been about and how it is done. It is also something we know none of the mechanics for. You maybe pleasantly surprised.
Lovisa Coldeyes the Barbaric Warlord (EDH)
Labyrinth Smackdown (Standard, RR Minotaur Tribal RR)
Jeopardy (Casual)
Huh, my fortune cookie today said I would be pleasantly surprised soon. So it must have been referring to what you just said.
........................
No offence but you picked really bad examples.
Miracle is random, you might draw it or you might not. The only why to use is effectively is to use only miracle cards or to have draw manipulation.
Extort is really simple, pay extra and poke for life gain. Not much planing there.
And Cipher again requires only a un-blockable creature and you just keep swinging with maybe the need of protection. But then also means that you are focused on a creature which undermines your argument.
Two of these need little to no thought and cipher only needs a little planning to work. And might I add that two of these are still in standard and yet you speak as though they are long gone.
And in defense of the army the Build an army theme, your thinking might be too shallow. If you are leading an army things like strength and numbers do not always mean that you win if you attack. We could see combat trick spells that you use before, during, or after attacking. We might see cards that are used to gather info for the sake of gaining success in the war, like looking at their hand or what they will draw. The theme is a world in which warring factions are clashing and there is more to war than having the most or even the biggest gun.
So to say that a Build the army theme would simply be a "Herp derp im gonna put a lot of tokens / big creatures out and attack you" as you would put it is to underestimate the idea. For all we know building the army will be the easy part, leading it to victory through tactics and planning will be the important part.
Okay I admit that the mechanics I talked about doesn´t require much thinking either tho Miracle together with Scry to see when the right cards are coming is at least more fun and requires more setup than mindless attacking with tokens / big creatures.
I hope you´re right about your ideas for "Building an army" They sounds intersting and would require more than just mindless attacking
All colors have gotten quite nice token generation methods.
Naya doesn't really need to be covered, I think? (I would point out that Red has been getting more varied tokens than Goblins... Young Pyromancer is probably the king of recent cards in this vein.) Notable possible plant was Flurry of Horns.
For Blue, I don't think anyone can forget Talrand's Invocation. 2 2/2 Flyers for 4 is... quite over the top for Blue from a token perspective. One of the biggest chase cards for Blue from Theros block was mainly because of its token generation (Master of Waves). There's also Rise of Eagles, which while not a good card definitely seems randomly inserted into its set.
Black, OTOH, received 'make (tapped or not) 2/2 Zombie creature tokens' as a major subset of cards in Innistrad block.
All in all, the only color that really needed a buff in terms of token production is Blue, and it has certainly gotten that since the release of Theros last year.
And a draco-Mongolian plane? This could be interesting
Are you suggesting a Booby Trap reprint, or something similar?
If so, I'm down.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
looks like this is the last thing he said about it:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/31629267913/are-you-planning-on-returning-fortifications-to-magic
sorry for the double post, would have edited but the edit button isnt working for me right now
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
As far as less barbarian oriented colours go, think of the duel decks: Speed vs. Cunning. From the duel deck blurb we're told that there are warlords who fight aggressively with speed, and those who favour a subtler approach. Presumably the latter will be at least partially blue, and will correspond to the control strategies in the block.