Edit: I'm not updating this further as the forum mods have agreed to host a list which is stickied at the top of the Rumor Mill. That page contains all info from this thread and more.
Info from the official WotC site today for this MTGO-only set.
- Power are twice as rare as specific mythics (so there's 2 Yawgmoth's Wills in print for every Ancestral Recall)
- Dual lands are in (all ten), sorry speculators
- Yawgmoth's Will at mythic
- The set is larger than expected. 105 rares, 30 mythics - meaning that it is a very large set indeed. Assuming Taiga is a rare (which is speculation, we only know it is in the set and mythic is possible), the chance of opening a Taiga in a VM booster is the same as that of opening a Liliana in an Innistrad booster.
- NEW 13 May: Control Magic, Necropotence and Goblin Warchief are in. No information on rarity.
- Arrogant Wurm, Goblin General and Circular Logic are in, rarity shifted down to common for limited purposes.
- New 13 May:
Living Death - Rare
Force of Will (yes!) - RARE
Memory Jar - Mythic
Goblin Goon - Uncommon
Chaos Warp - Rare
Balance - Mythic
Nature's Ruin - Rare (presumably this means Virtue's Ruin will also be rare)
Skullclamp - Mythic (thank god, this will be a nightmare in limited)
- Source: Wizards_Alison forum post on WotC forums, Twitter posts
New Jun 14
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Mythic (Source: SCG)
Several bad commons noone cares about (Teroh's Faithful)
Reanimate - Uncommon
Anyone take a look at the spoiler yet? Ral and Brago (from Conspiracy) are in there...
That was known. Every card in Conspiracy that is Vintage-legal and not a reprint will be in VM. (Presumably many reprints as well, but that is speculation).
Anyone take a look at the spoiler yet? Dack Fayden and Brago (from Conspiracy) are in there...
conspiracy only cards that will be legal in vintage and legacy will be in vintage masters ( known for a while)
Not will, but may be. Only certain cards printed in Conspiracy will be printed in VM. This could mean only the Conspiracy cards won't be in VM, or it could mean some other new cards also won't be in VM. More likely the latter, as something like Cogwork Librarian probably won't be in VM.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
Really looking forward to this. I hope they did a good job balancing the limited format. Each Master's Edition limited was better than the one before it, so I hope they continue that trend and Vintage Masters is sweet.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
I've seen Survival go as late as 13th pick in Cube drafts online because it requires a certain type of deck. Moxes will almost always be picked first, and will always be gone by pick 3 because no matter what deck you are playing, you want free permanent mana accel, even if it's "colorless." The same is true for Lotus. The other's are slightly different as it requires a certain color, and Timetwister in particular might not be an early pick for draft purposes, but in the right deck, Timetwister is just as, if not more, powerful than either Survival or Nightmare.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
You do get that the Holiday cube has none-repeating cards in it, and as such has a much higher chance of getting a Moxen in your pack than it does in the 1 in 53 packs opened that VM has. Additionally you can build your deck around fast mana in the Holiday cube since it's not just the Moxen that exist but additionally the Signets and things like Sol Ring which can be a lot better than any given Moxen in a limited setting.
More so, "powerful" and "format warping" are very different things. Moxen do not warp limited formats, at least not in the quantity that they'll be provided in this draft format according to their post.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
You do get that the Holiday cube has none-repeating cards in it, and as such has a much higher chance of getting a Moxen in your pack than it does in the 1 in 53 packs opened that VM has. Additionally you can build your deck around fast mana in the Holiday cube since it's not just the Moxen that exist but additionally the Signets and things like Sol Ring which can be a lot better than any given Moxen in a limited setting.
More so, "powerful" and "format warping" are very different things. Moxen do not warp limited formats, at least not in the quantity that they'll be provided in this draft format according to their post.
So what do you think the rarity should be? Mythic?
Seriously think a second. If the Moxen were printed at mythic and Underground Sea at rare, a "playset" of Mox Sapphire (1 card) would require less packs than a playset (4 cards) of Underground Sea.
That would quickly lead to dirt-cheap Moxen. By dirt cheap, I mean 5-10 tickets max, as is the case with other restricted cards with obscene power levels.
Don't believe me? Look up the price disparity between the Vintage/Classic/Legacy marginal card Gaea's Cradle and the restricted powerhouse Yawgmoth's Will. One is a 6 ticket card (6 tix per playset), the other a 70 ticket card (280 tix per playset), despite Will's power level being off the planet compared to Cradle.
That's right, the Power Nine are so powerful and so format warping in Limited that we had to put them in their own rarity above mythic rare, a rarity we're calling Special.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
You do get that the Holiday cube has none-repeating cards in it, and as such has a much higher chance of getting a Moxen in your pack than it does in the 1 in 53 packs opened that VM has. Additionally you can build your deck around fast mana in the Holiday cube since it's not just the Moxen that exist but additionally the Signets and things like Sol Ring which can be a lot better than any given Moxen in a limited setting.
More so, "powerful" and "format warping" are very different things. Moxen do not warp limited formats, at least not in the quantity that they'll be provided in this draft format according to their post.
So what do you think the rarity should be? Mythic?
I don't care what rarity they are, what bothers me is that they're talking about them as if they make or break a deck, when in reality they can offer a power boost to a given deck but don't force you into a strategy if you see them early enough, neither do they save an otherwise marginal deck as something like Jitte can.
Making them mythic would most likely not ruin the format, and making them a special higher rarity like the Time Shifted cards wouldn't be an issue if they simply wanted to make them more special. What I have an issue with is that they're basically stating that these cards are so powerful, that they'll warp the entire format each time they show up, even if it's about 1-2 in a draft like most mythics. Maybe Ancestral Recall can do that, but no other card in the power nine will offer you that throughout a game.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
I'm calling bull***** on the "Special" rarity. If some cards are too powerful for limited they are still too powerful even if you make them twice as rare. It's $$$-grabbing and nothing else.
I'm calling bull***** on the "Special" rarity. If some cards are too powerful for limited they are still too powerful even if you make them twice as rare. It's $$$-grabbing and nothing else.
Even if true, that's a bad thing?
It's also to help the online economy as sirgog pointed out. Power 9 SHOULD be expensive. They are iconic. If they're not the most expensive cards, that's crap.
Aaron Forsythe, director of Magic R&D, came up with the idea of building Vintage Masters from only the set of cards that aren't currently Modern legal.
To reiterate: there are no modern legal cards in Vintage Masters.
I'm calling bull***** on the "Special" rarity. If some cards are too powerful for limited they are still too powerful even if you make them twice as rare. It's $$$-grabbing and nothing else.
Even if true, that's a bad thing?
It's also to help the online economy as sirgog pointed out. Power 9 SHOULD be expensive. They are iconic. If they're not the most expensive cards, that's crap.
Imo, the Special rarity would be perfectly acceptable if WotC used your reasoning ("Power should be extra rare/expensive"). Now they're trying to sell it off as something it's obviously not ("Too good for limited").
This puts me in a pickle. I don't want to reward the inadequate MTGO program with my money, but this is an opportunity to obtain powerful cards outside of the speculators' collective iron grip.
Imo, the Special rarity would be perfectly acceptable if WotC used your reasoning ("Power should be extra rare/expensive"). Now they're trying to sell it off as something it's obviously not ("Too good for limited").
They probably do, they just don't want to say that. To blatantly say to your prosepective customers: we're going to do something to keep it expensive is deemed bad marketing. Listen to this podcast with Bruce Richards (the writer for of the casual/multiplayer collumn on the mothership), where Erin asks if there is anything different from writing for a third party website than for the mothership. He notes that it isn't very different, except he can't use the word 'expensive', but has to use the acronym 'difficult to aquire'.
Imo, the Special rarity would be perfectly acceptable if WotC used your reasoning ("Power should be extra rare/expensive"). Now they're trying to sell it off as something it's obviously not ("Too good for limited").
They probably do, they just don't want to say that. To blatantly say to your prosepective customers: we're going to do something to keep it expensive is deemed bad marketing. Listen to this podcast with Bruce Richards (the writer for of the casual/multiplayer collumn on the mothership), where Erin asks if there is anything different from writing for a third party website than for the mothership. He notes that it isn't very different, except he can't use the word 'expensive', but has to use the acronym 'difficult to aquire'.
You are probably right. Still, I find it mildly offensive that they retort to half-lies to justify their actions.
Imo, the Special rarity would be perfectly acceptable if WotC used your reasoning ("Power should be extra rare/expensive"). Now they're trying to sell it off as something it's obviously not ("Too good for limited").
They probably do, they just don't want to say that. To blatantly say to your prosepective customers: we're going to do something to keep it expensive is deemed bad marketing. Listen to this podcast with Bruce Richards (the writer for of the casual/multiplayer collumn on the mothership), where Erin asks if there is anything different from writing for a third party website than for the mothership. He notes that it isn't very different, except he can't use the word 'expensive', but has to use the acronym 'difficult to aquire'.
Does that make it okay though? Especially with all of the people who take everything they say word-for-word and with a "I'm your best buddy" mentality.
Edit: I'm not updating this further as the forum mods have agreed to host a list which is stickied at the top of the Rumor Mill. That page contains all info from this thread and more.
Info from the official WotC site today for this MTGO-only set.
- Power are twice as rare as specific mythics (so there's 2 Yawgmoth's Wills in print for every Ancestral Recall)
- Dual lands are in (all ten), sorry speculators
- Yawgmoth's Will at mythic
- The set is larger than expected. 105 rares, 30 mythics - meaning that it is a very large set indeed. Assuming Taiga is a rare (which is speculation, we only know it is in the set and mythic is possible), the chance of opening a Taiga in a VM booster is the same as that of opening a Liliana in an Innistrad booster.
- NEW 13 May: Control Magic, Necropotence and Goblin Warchief are in. No information on rarity.
- Arrogant Wurm, Goblin General and Circular Logic are in, rarity shifted down to common for limited purposes.
- New 13 May:
Living Death - Rare
Force of Will (yes!) - RARE
Memory Jar - Mythic
Goblin Goon - Uncommon
Chaos Warp - Rare
Balance - Mythic
Nature's Ruin - Rare (presumably this means Virtue's Ruin will also be rare)
Skullclamp - Mythic (thank god, this will be a nightmare in limited)
- Source: Wizards_Alison forum post on WotC forums, Twitter posts
New Jun 14
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Mythic (Source: SCG)
Several bad commons noone cares about (Teroh's Faithful)
Reanimate - Uncommon
Like playing Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014? Sign up for the Player Registry today!
That was known. Every card in Conspiracy that is Vintage-legal and not a reprint will be in VM. (Presumably many reprints as well, but that is speculation).
From the conspiracy anouncement:
conspiracy only cards that will be legal in vintage and legacy will be in vintage masters ( known for a while)
Not will, but may be. Only certain cards printed in Conspiracy will be printed in VM. This could mean only the Conspiracy cards won't be in VM, or it could mean some other new cards also won't be in VM. More likely the latter, as something like Cogwork Librarian probably won't be in VM.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1491 is the source.
Getting a single Moxen in the entire draft by no means defines your deck on the same level as certain other cards do. Anyone who has played cube understands what cards will make you want to go into certain archetypes, and unless you get multiple moxen and fast mana you're probably not defining your deck by such things. Of course you're generally playing the mox, or you might splash a Time Walk, but you're not defined by at as you might be by something like Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
Really? You haven't even seen the effects of moxen in the holiday cube? Even if you get one it's STILL very powerful.
I've seen Survival go as late as 13th pick in Cube drafts online because it requires a certain type of deck. Moxes will almost always be picked first, and will always be gone by pick 3 because no matter what deck you are playing, you want free permanent mana accel, even if it's "colorless." The same is true for Lotus. The other's are slightly different as it requires a certain color, and Timetwister in particular might not be an early pick for draft purposes, but in the right deck, Timetwister is just as, if not more, powerful than either Survival or Nightmare.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
You do get that the Holiday cube has none-repeating cards in it, and as such has a much higher chance of getting a Moxen in your pack than it does in the 1 in 53 packs opened that VM has. Additionally you can build your deck around fast mana in the Holiday cube since it's not just the Moxen that exist but additionally the Signets and things like Sol Ring which can be a lot better than any given Moxen in a limited setting.
More so, "powerful" and "format warping" are very different things. Moxen do not warp limited formats, at least not in the quantity that they'll be provided in this draft format according to their post.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
So what do you think the rarity should be? Mythic?
That would quickly lead to dirt-cheap Moxen. By dirt cheap, I mean 5-10 tickets max, as is the case with other restricted cards with obscene power levels.
Don't believe me? Look up the price disparity between the Vintage/Classic/Legacy marginal card Gaea's Cradle and the restricted powerhouse Yawgmoth's Will. One is a 6 ticket card (6 tix per playset), the other a 70 ticket card (280 tix per playset), despite Will's power level being off the planet compared to Cradle.
I don't care what rarity they are, what bothers me is that they're talking about them as if they make or break a deck, when in reality they can offer a power boost to a given deck but don't force you into a strategy if you see them early enough, neither do they save an otherwise marginal deck as something like Jitte can.
Making them mythic would most likely not ruin the format, and making them a special higher rarity like the Time Shifted cards wouldn't be an issue if they simply wanted to make them more special. What I have an issue with is that they're basically stating that these cards are so powerful, that they'll warp the entire format each time they show up, even if it's about 1-2 in a draft like most mythics. Maybe Ancestral Recall can do that, but no other card in the power nine will offer you that throughout a game.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
Even if true, that's a bad thing?
It's also to help the online economy as sirgog pointed out. Power 9 SHOULD be expensive. They are iconic. If they're not the most expensive cards, that's crap.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
To reiterate: there are no modern legal cards in Vintage Masters.
Necropotence is in.
Goblin Warchief (and a lot of goblin tribal) is in.
Imo, the Special rarity would be perfectly acceptable if WotC used your reasoning ("Power should be extra rare/expensive"). Now they're trying to sell it off as something it's obviously not ("Too good for limited").
They probably do, they just don't want to say that. To blatantly say to your prosepective customers: we're going to do something to keep it expensive is deemed bad marketing. Listen to this podcast with Bruce Richards (the writer for of the casual/multiplayer collumn on the mothership), where Erin asks if there is anything different from writing for a third party website than for the mothership. He notes that it isn't very different, except he can't use the word 'expensive', but has to use the acronym 'difficult to aquire'.
You are probably right. Still, I find it mildly offensive that they retort to half-lies to justify their actions.
Does that make it okay though? Especially with all of the people who take everything they say word-for-word and with a "I'm your best buddy" mentality.