People make mistakes, sure. I'm certainly not blaming the mods for this. But are we still saying there's anyone in the world who can determine the fonts in that picture with any degree of confidence? The blurriness and positioning of the cards should not be used to declare something fake on their own, they're just grounds for suspicion when you have some more concrete reason to doubt the rumour.
Here we see the reverse of the scenario TK-421 described, with this list unilaterally declared fake and many in the community not clear on the reasons for this declaration, people got hyped up about their own imagined FTV lists. If that sort of thing is why it is necessary to have the standard of evidence we have, then the reverse situation should be taken into account with that standard as well. There is a middle ground between 100% confirmed and 100% known to be fake and perhaps the Rumor Mill could acknowledge that middle ground as an alternative to prematurely declaring things fake on weak grounds.
Apparently the people claiming the mods are the worst people on Earth haven't been around for the times where they left stuff up that ended up not being real. Those are MUCH worse. They made the right call.
^100% this jturphy. Leaving up fake stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> locking real stuff by a wide margin.
Yeah ravages of war and imperial seal are only a matter of time before they get reprinted. Same is true of all P3K cards that anyone cares about.
45 dollars for this is something I would buy en masse as would a great many others. That's 10 above MSRP and equates to 3 dollars per card. Cards in this set worth less than 3 dollars: firespout, martial coup, decree of annihilation. Everything else is easily at least 3 dollars if not more (virtue's ruin is the one I have my eye on as it's playable in legacy and is the only foil version of it.) Smokestack has never been foiled before either although I'm hedging towards low end similar to tangle wire although tangle wire had a set foil/pimpers go for set foil always typically.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Wasn't this confirmed weeks ago when the new Smokestack art was revealed during Vintage Masters spoilers? I had no idea people were still questioning the authenticity up until the SDCC panel? I understand the Mods had legitimate concerns initially, but it seems like a lot of other people just really wanted it to be fake, because the list is so underwhelming.
The underwhelming list was, at the end of the day, the reason for the lock. There was enough evidence to support credibility initially that it should have been given the "unconfirmed rumor" treatment. As others have stated, this is a RUMOR mill. Unless you change the name to the "Facts, just the facts mill," it should remain a place for RUMORS (a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.) to be discussed. The images, while low quality, displayed plenty of information and speculative material. This criticism has nothing to do with "hindsight being 20/20" and everything to do with flawed policy of locking nearly anything that isn't just a link to the mother site or other official release. Rumors are about discussing what is not yet official. This is the whole reason people even come to the site.
While I find the lack of damnation disappointing, the Rolling Earthquake guarantees that I'll buy the copy reserved for me at the store. Had to pass on FTV Jace. Too little for too much. A Rolling Earthquake for under 50 or so is worth it. I just wish I could find someone to swap me for the original. Foils are so bendy.
I expect Rolling Earthquake to retain some of its value, as it's functionally the only X burn spell that hits everything, including fliers.
Starstorm does, too, and is better due to being instant. It's still worth nothing. Rolling Earthquake is Starstorm #2 in Commander and only has value because it's insanely rare. Most of the portal things that have huge value now were only worth a tiny fraction before Commander decks 2011. Back then, Imperial Seal was even worth closer to Mana Drain than a Beta Black Lotus.
^100% this jturphy. Leaving up fake stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> locking real stuff by a wide margin.
I'm not convinced that it is. A false negative is just as much misinformation as a false positive. This is the perfect example of a false claim spreading throughout the community without any critical analysis, the MTGS mods said it was fake so case closed it must be! This is worse than inaction because it carries the weight of authority. This wasn't just something that appeared on MTGS and was copied elsewhere, this was an official statement.
What bothers me, though, is that the weight of authority seems to have affected even the authorities themselves. When Igor Kieryluk's expected art "in an upcoming set" turned out to be in Conspiracy rather than From the Vault, I argued that there was no real reason to think it fake any more. Many others (those who knew the background, at least) became convinced when the Smokestack art turned up in Vintage Masters. The argument was then made that the faker may have acquired the image from MTGO, but as far as I am aware no serious thought was given to whether this explanation was actually more plausible than the reasons to think the image fake. I think the real lesson to learn from this is not to be too stuck to proclamations you've made with incomplete evidence. A thing is not made fake by MTGS saying so, and that is certainly not a self-justifying trait.
Leaving up fake stuff is bad. That's spreading false information and that is incredibly bad. Locking real stuff in comparison is quite innocent. It's like comparing a felony to a misdemeanor.
As for it being locked several months ago, who honestly cares that much? We were going to find out the list eventually anyways but people are so god damned impatient these days.
Locked for being underwhelming? Are you daft? Mods on this site would NOT lock something because it's underwhelming. If they did that would be an incredible new low.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Ok, so I've partaken in it, but this thread is really dedicated to the contents of the FTV, not whether the mods should be locking threads. If you want to continue that discussion, please take it to either Annorax's helpdesk or my helpdesk. Thanks!
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Leaving up fake stuff is bad. That's spreading false information and that is incredibly bad. Locking real stuff in comparison is quite innocent. It's like comparing a felony to a misdemeanor.
As for it being locked several months ago, who honestly cares that much? We were going to find out the list eventually anyways but people are so god damned impatient these days.
Locked for being underwhelming? Are you daft? Mods on this site would NOT lock something because it's underwhelming. If they did that would be an incredible new low.
Are you kidding? This is a rumor mill, not a fact mill. Rumors are the entire point of the forum. Locking a thread signifies to the entire community that something has been proven indisputably fake. Thus, locking a thread that hasn't been proven fake is doing a giant disservice to the entire community. You quite simply don't lock a thread unless there is conclusive proof it's fake, which there very simply was not in this case. Any objections were, at the very least, negated by the presence of previously unseen art. In reality, unseen art nearly always proven spoilers real, and is far more convincing then the obviously meaningless font mumbo-jumbo.
Anyway... if I had to guess, I'd say that the mods knew this was real, and it was locked because it was spoiled way to early and upset WoTC's legal folk. The other supposed issues where just a smokescreen to avoid getting sued.
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Decks: Standard - Rally, Modern - Kikichord, Legacy - Elves
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
Hmm... I can't tell if it's fake or not. On the one hand it was posted before that art was revealed, but on the other hand it seems very suspicious that none of the holographic foils are in the image + the fact that its so blurry. I hope damnation ends up being in Khans if its not going to be in this From the Vaults.
100% it won't be. 4 mana unconditional Wrath's are not black. They don't put the non-regeneration clause on Wraths anymore. It will only be reprinted in supplemental products unless they change both of those change.
I do agree with you though that the no regen clause is something they don't like, and as a result I believe that we will see black Day of Judgement before we get Damnation in a standard legal set. Damnation would be a fantastic hype card to put into MM2, and that is where I would expect to see it personally. As far as bdoj goes, as much as I hope to be wrong, I would expect them to wait until after MM2 if that is where damnation is going to get reprinted. Who know though, maybe they will surprise us all and print one of them in Khans~
This will be $45 by christsmass.
I only want the armaggedon.
I really hope you're joking in thinking that this will only be $45. Even if it is, by far, the worst FTV ever, it still has foil Rolling Earthquake and Burning of Xin.
Neither of those cards excites most players. They are expensive almost exclusively due to scarcity. Granted that my sample size is small, everyone I know that would buy this product and has seen the list is sitting out this round. They will still sell at MSRP and slightly above, and some stores will try to raise prices up to normal FTV levels due to the current high price tag on the P3k reprints, but I would be very surprised to see that stick.
Hmm... I can't tell if it's fake or not. On the one hand it was posted before that art was revealed, but on the other hand it seems very suspicious that none of the holographic foils are in the image + the fact that its so blurry. I hope damnation ends up being in Khans if its not going to be in this From the Vaults.
100% it won't be. 4 mana unconditional Wrath's are not black. They don't put the non-regeneration clause on Wraths anymore. It will only be reprinted in supplemental products unless they change both of those change.
hasn't Maro said that damnnation is in blacks color pie
Hmm... I can't tell if it's fake or not. On the one hand it was posted before that art was revealed, but on the other hand it seems very suspicious that none of the holographic foils are in the image + the fact that its so blurry. I hope damnation ends up being in Khans if its not going to be in this From the Vaults.
100% it won't be. 4 mana unconditional Wrath's are not black. They don't put the non-regeneration clause on Wraths anymore. It will only be reprinted in supplemental products unless they change both of those change.
hasn't Maro said that damnnation is in blacks color pie
Mass sweepers are in black's color pie, but they are less efficient. Black does not get 4 mana unconditional wraths.
Not really because one may want all the cards, but to preorder for $45, keep a couple of things and trade the rest off individually to make a profit or whatever.
Not really because one may want all the cards, but to preorder for $45, keep a couple of things and trade the rest off individually to make a profit or whatever.
You wouldn't make any value. The two most expensive cards in there are only expensive because they're 3 Kingdoms. I would expect them to drop below $20 for this product.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
45 bucks for the set seems fair though. Aside from the P3K cards, Smokestack still holds a fair bit of value (A tenner), Fracturing Gust is at 6, Cataclysm is 10, and most others are in the 3-6 range, so...
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Here we see the reverse of the scenario TK-421 described, with this list unilaterally declared fake and many in the community not clear on the reasons for this declaration, people got hyped up about their own imagined FTV lists. If that sort of thing is why it is necessary to have the standard of evidence we have, then the reverse situation should be taken into account with that standard as well. There is a middle ground between 100% confirmed and 100% known to be fake and perhaps the Rumor Mill could acknowledge that middle ground as an alternative to prematurely declaring things fake on weak grounds.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Yeah ravages of war and imperial seal are only a matter of time before they get reprinted. Same is true of all P3K cards that anyone cares about.
45 dollars for this is something I would buy en masse as would a great many others. That's 10 above MSRP and equates to 3 dollars per card. Cards in this set worth less than 3 dollars: firespout, martial coup, decree of annihilation. Everything else is easily at least 3 dollars if not more (virtue's ruin is the one I have my eye on as it's playable in legacy and is the only foil version of it.) Smokestack has never been foiled before either although I'm hedging towards low end similar to tangle wire although tangle wire had a set foil/pimpers go for set foil always typically.
Currently Playing:
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While I find the lack of damnation disappointing, the Rolling Earthquake guarantees that I'll buy the copy reserved for me at the store. Had to pass on FTV Jace. Too little for too much. A Rolling Earthquake for under 50 or so is worth it. I just wish I could find someone to swap me for the original. Foils are so bendy.
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
I'm not convinced that it is. A false negative is just as much misinformation as a false positive. This is the perfect example of a false claim spreading throughout the community without any critical analysis, the MTGS mods said it was fake so case closed it must be! This is worse than inaction because it carries the weight of authority. This wasn't just something that appeared on MTGS and was copied elsewhere, this was an official statement.
What bothers me, though, is that the weight of authority seems to have affected even the authorities themselves. When Igor Kieryluk's expected art "in an upcoming set" turned out to be in Conspiracy rather than From the Vault, I argued that there was no real reason to think it fake any more. Many others (those who knew the background, at least) became convinced when the Smokestack art turned up in Vintage Masters. The argument was then made that the faker may have acquired the image from MTGO, but as far as I am aware no serious thought was given to whether this explanation was actually more plausible than the reasons to think the image fake. I think the real lesson to learn from this is not to be too stuck to proclamations you've made with incomplete evidence. A thing is not made fake by MTGS saying so, and that is certainly not a self-justifying trait.
As for it being locked several months ago, who honestly cares that much? We were going to find out the list eventually anyways but people are so god damned impatient these days.
Locked for being underwhelming? Are you daft? Mods on this site would NOT lock something because it's underwhelming. If they did that would be an incredible new low.
Currently Playing:
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New Firespout looks mondo cool
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
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Are you kidding? This is a rumor mill, not a fact mill. Rumors are the entire point of the forum. Locking a thread signifies to the entire community that something has been proven indisputably fake. Thus, locking a thread that hasn't been proven fake is doing a giant disservice to the entire community. You quite simply don't lock a thread unless there is conclusive proof it's fake, which there very simply was not in this case. Any objections were, at the very least, negated by the presence of previously unseen art. In reality, unseen art nearly always proven spoilers real, and is far more convincing then the obviously meaningless font mumbo-jumbo.
Anyway... if I had to guess, I'd say that the mods knew this was real, and it was locked because it was spoiled way to early and upset WoTC's legal folk. The other supposed issues where just a smokescreen to avoid getting sued.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
There was a point in time when Wizards felt that Damnation was a bending of the pie, but Maro at least, has changed his mind:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/83838091259/are-straight-up-wrath-effects-in-blacks-part-of-the
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/20470949872/if-black-is-the-color-of-killing-all-the-creatures
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/68023964597/bring-back-damnation
I do agree with you though that the no regen clause is something they don't like, and as a result I believe that we will see black Day of Judgement before we get Damnation in a standard legal set. Damnation would be a fantastic hype card to put into MM2, and that is where I would expect to see it personally. As far as bdoj goes, as much as I hope to be wrong, I would expect them to wait until after MM2 if that is where damnation is going to get reprinted. Who know though, maybe they will surprise us all and print one of them in Khans~
Neither of those cards excites most players. They are expensive almost exclusively due to scarcity. Granted that my sample size is small, everyone I know that would buy this product and has seen the list is sitting out this round. They will still sell at MSRP and slightly above, and some stores will try to raise prices up to normal FTV levels due to the current high price tag on the P3k reprints, but I would be very surprised to see that stick.
Firespout
Martial Coup
Upheaval
Wrath of God
Virtue's Ruin
Rolling Earthquake
Armageddon
Decree of Annihilation
Living Death
Cataclysm
Burning of Xinye
Smokestack
Fracturing Gust
Terminus
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Seems like a pretty anticlimactic From the Vaults set if you aren't a Cube owner. Things like Fracturing Gust seem pretty lack lustre.
Not every card is going make everyone happy.
hasn't Maro said that damnnation is in blacks color pie
Mass sweepers are in black's color pie, but they are less efficient. Black does not get 4 mana unconditional wraths.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
To be honest I thought this was going to be the Kozilek, Butcher of Truth reprint. Sad panda.
Magic Online needs Virtue's Ruin.
If Nature's Ruin had been in FTV, then Virtue's Ruin would have been in Vintage Masters.
Knowing the list..
...is it worth picking one of these up for $45?
Not really because one may want all the cards, but to preorder for $45, keep a couple of things and trade the rest off individually to make a profit or whatever.
You wouldn't make any value. The two most expensive cards in there are only expensive because they're 3 Kingdoms. I would expect them to drop below $20 for this product.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.