They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
I have been doing my research because I plan on picking 2 of them up (regardless of the price). The discussion is about a card hanging around the $1k mark, be it a couple hundred and below or not. The fact remains that the card is far from the reach of most people. I was aware of the $800 price tag before you even mentioned it but really, in context with the issue, using the discussed price of $1k keeps the conversation fluid because the settling price of $800 currently still does not make this card any more available to the general public which is the issue being discussed. People picking them up at $1,000 made purchases hot out of the gate at a point in which few listings actually surfaced, anyone expecting it to hold tight at $1,000 and not take an incremental decrease in price is being just as silly as the people expecting the price of this card to somehow drastically reduce itself to a generally affordable price for a reasonable amount of people.
You could just as easily at least understand the upper market or basic economics before posting.
And how do you know the price won't be drasticaly reduced when these are included in judge packets?
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
I have been doing my research because I plan on picking 2 of them up (regardless of the price). The discussion is about a card hanging around the $1k mark, be it a couple hundred and below or not. The fact remains that the card is far from the reach of most people. I was aware of the $800 price tag before you even mentioned it but really, in context with the issue, using the discussed price of $1k keeps the conversation fluid because the settling price of $800 currently still does not make this card any more available to the general public which is the issue being discussed. People picking them up at $1,000 made purchases hot out of the gate at a point in which few listings actually surfaced, anyone expecting it to hold tight at $1,000 and not take an incremental decrease in price is being just as silly as the people expecting the price of this card to somehow drastically reduce itself to a generally affordable price for a reasonable amount of people.
You could just as easily at least understand the upper market or basic economics before posting.
And how do you know the price won't be drasticaly reduced when these are included in judge packets?
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Okay Mr. Economics, what happens when you increase the supply and the demand drops?
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
I have been doing my research because I plan on picking 2 of them up (regardless of the price). The discussion is about a card hanging around the $1k mark, be it a couple hundred and below or not. The fact remains that the card is far from the reach of most people. I was aware of the $800 price tag before you even mentioned it but really, in context with the issue, using the discussed price of $1k keeps the conversation fluid because the settling price of $800 currently still does not make this card any more available to the general public which is the issue being discussed. People picking them up at $1,000 made purchases hot out of the gate at a point in which few listings actually surfaced, anyone expecting it to hold tight at $1,000 and not take an incremental decrease in price is being just as silly as the people expecting the price of this card to somehow drastically reduce itself to a generally affordable price for a reasonable amount of people.
You could just as easily at least understand the upper market or basic economics before posting.
And how do you know the price won't be drasticaly reduced when these are included in judge packets?
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Okay Mr. Economics, what happens when you increase the supply and the demand drops?
Simply increasing the supply hardly means demand is going to drop. Goyf is a prime example of what happens when you increase the supply a card that cannot actually meet the demand. In what world do you think that the supply of these Force of Wills is going to actually increase to the point where the scale moves from high demand and low supply to low demand and high supply?
The profile of the object in demand is a real factor that you seem to simply be overlooking.
So what happens when you increase supply that exponentially increases demand?
Goyf almost doubles in price. Why would you think FoW is any different? Again this is also a result of you "if" statement in regards to their introduction into typical judge packets.
I'm mostly surprised how fast the Elesh Norn's dried up. There are 10x more Forces right now that Elesh Norn, and her price is over $400 now after starting ~$250. The risk with all this is there is no stated volume guarantees for judge promos. As cool as all of these are, I remain hesitant to buy new judge foils for at least the first 6-9 months.
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
I have been doing my research because I plan on picking 2 of them up (regardless of the price). The discussion is about a card hanging around the $1k mark, be it a couple hundred and below or not. The fact remains that the card is far from the reach of most people. I was aware of the $800 price tag before you even mentioned it but really, in context with the issue, using the discussed price of $1k keeps the conversation fluid because the settling price of $800 currently still does not make this card any more available to the general public which is the issue being discussed. People picking them up at $1,000 made purchases hot out of the gate at a point in which few listings actually surfaced, anyone expecting it to hold tight at $1,000 and not take an incremental decrease in price is being just as silly as the people expecting the price of this card to somehow drastically reduce itself to a generally affordable price for a reasonable amount of people.
You could just as easily at least understand the upper market or basic economics before posting.
And how do you know the price won't be drasticaly reduced when these are included in judge packets?
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Okay Mr. Economics, what happens when you increase the supply and the demand drops?
Simply increasing the supply hardly means demand is going to drop. Goyf is a prime example of what happens when you increase the supply a card that cannot actually meet the demand. In what world do you think that the supply of these Force of Wills is going to actually increase to the point where the scale moves from high demand and low supply to low demand and high supply?
The profile of the object in demand is a real factor that you seem to simply be overlooking.
So what happens when you increase supply that exponentially increases demand?
Goyf almost doubles in price. Why would you think FoW is any different? Again this is also a result of you "if" statement in regards to their introduction into typical judge packets.
Demand has already dropped off a bit and the supply has already increased, that is why we're seeing them for $700-800 now. Judges aren't only getting one of these. Some judges have gotten 2-4.
Comparing goyf to force is apples and oranges. For most cards in modern masters, they dropped in price when it was released. I remember being able to pick up Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins for $6-7. Because people were able to get several modern staples for cheap, it increased demand for mythic staples like goyf, bob, and clique. These cards are essential for getting into modern while a judge promo force is not for legacy. In fact we might see price increases for legacy staples if Conspiracy has a lot of legacy reprints. So we could see an increase in normal Force of Will, but not the judge promo because judge promos are not essential.
If this card was not worth 1,000 bucks, nobody would want it.
If nobody wanted it, it wouldn't be worth 1,000 bucks.
Welcome to economics 101.
You are correct that this is Econ 101. However, it is also tautology 101. Such "laws" have been recognized as circular since JB Say and the the elder Mill. I honestly can't tell if you are making a parody or not.
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
And how do you know the price won't be drasticaly reduced when these are included in judge packets?
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Okay Mr. Economics, what happens when you increase the supply and the demand drops?
Simply increasing the supply hardly means demand is going to drop. Goyf is a prime example of what happens when you increase the supply a card that cannot actually meet the demand. In what world do you think that the supply of these Force of Wills is going to actually increase to the point where the scale moves from high demand and low supply to low demand and high supply?
The profile of the object in demand is a real factor that you seem to simply be overlooking.
So what happens when you increase supply that exponentially increases demand?
Goyf almost doubles in price. Why would you think FoW is any different? Again this is also a result of you "if" statement in regards to their introduction into typical judge packets.
Demand has already dropped off a bit and the supply has already increased, that is why we're seeing them for $700-800 now. Judges aren't only getting one of these. Some judges have gotten 2-4.
Comparing goyf to force is apples and oranges. For most cards in modern masters, they dropped in price when it was released. I remember being able to pick up Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins for $6-7. Because people were able to get several modern staples for cheap, it increased demand for mythic staples like goyf, bob, and clique. These cards are essential for getting into modern while a judge promo force is not for legacy. In fact we might see price increases for legacy staples if Conspiracy has a lot of legacy reprints. So we could see an increase in normal Force of Will, but not the judge promo because judge promos are not essential.
aaaannnnnnnnddddd
I can no longer hold a discussion with you. Clearly you have no understanding of what we are even talking about so I am just going to peter out here.
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Okay Mr. Economics, what happens when you increase the supply and the demand drops?
Simply increasing the supply hardly means demand is going to drop. Goyf is a prime example of what happens when you increase the supply a card that cannot actually meet the demand. In what world do you think that the supply of these Force of Wills is going to actually increase to the point where the scale moves from high demand and low supply to low demand and high supply?
The profile of the object in demand is a real factor that you seem to simply be overlooking.
So what happens when you increase supply that exponentially increases demand?
Goyf almost doubles in price. Why would you think FoW is any different? Again this is also a result of you "if" statement in regards to their introduction into typical judge packets.
Demand has already dropped off a bit and the supply has already increased, that is why we're seeing them for $700-800 now. Judges aren't only getting one of these. Some judges have gotten 2-4.
Comparing goyf to force is apples and oranges. For most cards in modern masters, they dropped in price when it was released. I remember being able to pick up Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins for $6-7. Because people were able to get several modern staples for cheap, it increased demand for mythic staples like goyf, bob, and clique. These cards are essential for getting into modern while a judge promo force is not for legacy. In fact we might see price increases for legacy staples if Conspiracy has a lot of legacy reprints. So we could see an increase in normal Force of Will, but not the judge promo because judge promos are not essential.
aaaannnnnnnnddddd
I can no longer hold a discussion with you. Clearly you have no understanding of what we are even talking about so I am just going to peter out here.
The are no foils given anymore at the Pro Tour. Foil are a reward for improving the judge program. There are some given at Grand Prix because those events are a great way to train and mentor judges, but the judges at the pro tour are already supposed to the elite of the program, so while some mentoring happen, it's on the same scale.
Foils are given out as compensation to judges for travelling to events, staying in hotesl, and working 18 hour unpaid days. They are there to mitigate teh costs of doing so, else no one would actually judge at these big events unless they were in their home towns.
This was the only card that I absolutely went berserk over. If I played Reanimator, I seriously wouldn't be able to not get one, especially with how much normal Norn is nowadays.
The Force of Will is gorgeous, but I'd rather the iconic art of old. Force of Will has never been a card I specifically cared for anyway, so I can't say I'm drooling over it. Definitely worth the price tag, but it isn't something I particularly care to invest in.
Now....original art, Phyrexian text Gitaxian Probe, on the other hand....
Any predictions for Riku? I know he's one of the more popular commanders and my Riku deck is about 60% foiled right now so I'm definitely looking to pick him up. Early this week I saw two on Ebay, one BiN $50 and one BiN $44. The supply on Ebay seems to have completely dried up now, with only one listed at $100 and one from a seller outside the US that's currently setting at $34 (not sure of the USD price).
I see Karador is down to $25 now, but I assume Riku is more popular. What's the lowest you think he will go? I was planning on waiting until he hit $25 but I fear he may not ever dip that low. Then again, he is a card that generally only Riku EDH players and promo collectors want, and not more than 1 copy.
Any predictions for Riku? I know he's one of the more popular commanders and my Riku deck is about 60% foiled right now so I'm definitely looking to pick him up. Early this week I saw two on Ebay, one BiN $50 and one BiN $44. The supply on Ebay seems to have completely dried up now, with only one listed at $100 and one from a seller outside the US that's currently setting at $34 (not sure of the USD price).
I see Karador is down to $25 now, but I assume Riku is more popular. What's the lowest you think he will go? I was planning on waiting until he hit $25 but I fear he may not ever dip that low. Then again, he is a card that generally only Riku EDH players and promo collectors want, and not more than 1 copy.
I don't expect these to be very expensive in a year or so- maybe around $15.
As you said, the demand is very limited.
Certain players want it NOW, and so the initial supply is bought at an inflated price.
Once a bunch more have entered the market, it should go down.
I mean... Command Tower is a lot more in demand, and it's only $15.
I say wait a few months and the price should be quite a bit lower.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't expect these to be very expensive in a year or so- maybe around $15.
As you said, the demand is very limited.
Certain players want it NOW, and so the initial supply is bought at an inflated price.
Once a bunch more have entered the market, it should go down.
I mean... Command Tower is a lot more in demand, and it's only $15.
I say wait a few months and the price should be quite a bit lower.
I don't know if they'll all go as low as Command Tower, but they'll definitely drop for a bit. I hope they hit a reasonable mark in the next year here, I would love to get my hands on the Hanna judge foil, Terese Nielsen did incredible work with the alt art.
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Anyone knows which judge foils were given out at the latest pro tour?
To at least partially answer your question, at Origins, the Judge conference packet had Riku, Nekusar, Karador and Entomb (blech).
Elesh and Hanna will come down when they start making it into the packets later this year. I doubt they'll ever be < $50 - but stranger things have happened.
Anyone knows which judge foils were given out at the latest pro tour?
To at least partially answer your question, at Origins, the Judge conference packet had Riku, Nekusar, Karador and Entomb (blech).
Elesh and Hanna will come down when they start making it into the packets later this year. I doubt they'll ever be < $50 - but stranger things have happened.
Why did they give out Nekusar if he's #7? Shouldn't they have given out Greater Good along with Riku?
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FoW? or Judge promo FoW?
They are not the same thing to people like me and that is why their price is not the same. If you are asking if I have a problem paying $1k each (or $800 each) the answer is no, I do not. If you are asking why I have not already picked them up, it is because their release was unexpected and my Martin Ukulele purchase was expected.
You mean if. Their introduction to standard judge packets is speculation as far as I have seen (please do not mistake this as complete doubt). I would not be surprised that even if they are introduced into a typical judge packet, that their price still settles at the bottom of unobtainable for most players - which still means that this issue exists and we will be having the same discussion then. Currently, the demand for these is exponential to that of a typical FoW and introducing it into a typical judge packet can't put a big enough dent into the price of these things to have them settle down to a reasonably affordable judge promo.
Simply increasing the supply hardly means demand is going to drop. Goyf is a prime example of what happens when you increase the supply a card that cannot actually meet the demand. In what world do you think that the supply of these Force of Wills is going to actually increase to the point where the scale moves from high demand and low supply to low demand and high supply?
The profile of the object in demand is a real factor that you seem to simply be overlooking.
So what happens when you increase supply that exponentially increases demand?
Goyf almost doubles in price. Why would you think FoW is any different? Again this is also a result of you "if" statement in regards to their introduction into typical judge packets.
Comparing goyf to force is apples and oranges. For most cards in modern masters, they dropped in price when it was released. I remember being able to pick up Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins for $6-7. Because people were able to get several modern staples for cheap, it increased demand for mythic staples like goyf, bob, and clique. These cards are essential for getting into modern while a judge promo force is not for legacy. In fact we might see price increases for legacy staples if Conspiracy has a lot of legacy reprints. So we could see an increase in normal Force of Will, but not the judge promo because judge promos are not essential.
You are correct that this is Econ 101. However, it is also tautology 101. Such "laws" have been recognized as circular since JB Say and the the elder Mill. I honestly can't tell if you are making a parody or not.
aaaannnnnnnnddddd
I can no longer hold a discussion with you. Clearly you have no understanding of what we are even talking about so I am just going to peter out here.
Let me know how waiting it out works for you.
Actually, don't bother - I already know.
Spam warning -Rax
"Clearly".
Spam warning -Rax
Foils are given out as compensation to judges for travelling to events, staying in hotesl, and working 18 hour unpaid days. They are there to mitigate teh costs of doing so, else no one would actually judge at these big events unless they were in their home towns.
This was the only card that I absolutely went berserk over. If I played Reanimator, I seriously wouldn't be able to not get one, especially with how much normal Norn is nowadays.
The Force of Will is gorgeous, but I'd rather the iconic art of old. Force of Will has never been a card I specifically cared for anyway, so I can't say I'm drooling over it. Definitely worth the price tag, but it isn't something I particularly care to invest in.
Now....original art, Phyrexian text Gitaxian Probe, on the other hand....
I see Karador is down to $25 now, but I assume Riku is more popular. What's the lowest you think he will go? I was planning on waiting until he hit $25 but I fear he may not ever dip that low. Then again, he is a card that generally only Riku EDH players and promo collectors want, and not more than 1 copy.
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I don't expect these to be very expensive in a year or so- maybe around $15.
As you said, the demand is very limited.
Certain players want it NOW, and so the initial supply is bought at an inflated price.
Once a bunch more have entered the market, it should go down.
I mean... Command Tower is a lot more in demand, and it's only $15.
I say wait a few months and the price should be quite a bit lower.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't know if they'll all go as low as Command Tower, but they'll definitely drop for a bit. I hope they hit a reasonable mark in the next year here, I would love to get my hands on the Hanna judge foil, Terese Nielsen did incredible work with the alt art.
To at least partially answer your question, at Origins, the Judge conference packet had Riku, Nekusar, Karador and Entomb (blech).
Elesh and Hanna will come down when they start making it into the packets later this year. I doubt they'll ever be < $50 - but stranger things have happened.