But the majority doesn't care, just like most of the ~500 people at the open last weekend didn't give a crap. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Stop throwing a hissy fit and get over it.
Clearly you should try reading it 4 times next. You have no poll that allows you to cite the majority opinion, either, so you're just as in the dark as anyone else. And the only one making a big deal and throwing a hissy fit here is you, who can't get over the fact not everyone agrees with you.
But the majority doesn't care, just like most of the ~500 people at the open last weekend didn't give a crap. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Stop throwing a hissy fit and get over it.
Clearly you should try reading it 4 times next. You have no poll that allows you to cite the majority opinion, either, so you're just as in the dark as anyone else. And the only one making a big deal and throwing a hissy fit here is you, who can't get over the fact not everyone agrees with you.
Now you're being delusional. You have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then you claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing.
Which the whole argument over how many players care about this rule change is moot anyways - since the decision was obviously made without regard to popular opinion. Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle grasping this concept:
The rule change was made to curb cheating regardless of how people feel about it.
And since that's all that matters, your opinion on the subject does not. Grab a pad and pen and move on.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
All around good changes I think, especially letting the head judge downgrade simple mistakes on deck registration.
This one especially. Very minor errors on deck registration (have heard some real horror stories out there) should be handled in this more relaxed fashion.
Third this. I was at a sealed PTQ in September where both people at a table were found to have forgotten to de-sideboard one card before starting the round. Each of them received a game loss and they found themselves playing a one-game round.
Like it, tired of playing people that text during a match, it's so disrespectful to your opponent to not give them your full attention while playing. So many people dick around on their phone while doing anything its pathetic.
Fixed
Im only 23 years old but I already feel like an old man in that regard. You can see entire groups of people who know each other standing together with everyone having their phone in their hand and writing with someone that is not present instead of talking to each other.
Definitely a development in society that I dont agree with but to get a bit on-topic while Im a Magic-Online only player I agree with the new rule. Having your phone their and writing with people could lead to cheating so proactively stopping that is the right move. You can't have something like that in tournaments where thousands of dollars are at stake.
Now you're being delusional. You have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then you claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing.
No, now YOU'RE being delusional. YOU have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then YOU claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing. These are all things YOU are doing, not me.
Which the whole argument over how many players care about this rule change is moot anyways
Strange how two people, yourself included, argued about how many players cared about this rule change if you find it moot. I guess you realized you were making a losing argument, but weren't honest enough to admit you were wrong?
- since the decision was obviously made without regard to popular opinion.
Congratulations, you've finally reached the point I first made many posts again. Maybe if you read all the posts after that sometime, you'll be caught up.
Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle grasping this concept:
The rule change was made to curb cheating regardless of how people feel about it.
And since that's all that matters, your opinion on the subject does not. Grab a pad and pen and move on.
Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle with grasping this concept:
We already know that it was done regardless of how people feel about it; it was another poster and then yourself that argued the rule change was okay because of how people felt about it.
And since that was wrong, your opinion on the subject was also wrong. Put down your keyboard and step away from the Internet.
Now you're being delusional. You have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then you claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing.
No, now YOU'RE being delusional. YOU have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then YOU claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing. These are all things YOU are doing, not me.
Which the whole argument over how many players care about this rule change is moot anyways
Strange how two people, yourself included, argued about how many players cared about this rule change if you find it moot. I guess you realized you were making a losing argument, but weren't honest enough to admit you were wrong?
- since the decision was obviously made without regard to popular opinion.
Congratulations, you've finally reached the point I first made many posts again. Maybe if you read all the posts after that sometime, you'll be caught up.
Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle grasping this concept:
The rule change was made to curb cheating regardless of how people feel about it.
And since that's all that matters, your opinion on the subject does not. Grab a pad and pen and move on.
Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle with grasping this concept:
We already know that it was done regardless of how people feel about it; it was another poster and then yourself that argued the rule change was okay because of how people felt about it.
And since that was wrong, your opinion on the subject was also wrong. Put down your keyboard and step away from the Internet.
Sir Bruce you should probably do the same before trolling my response by copying what I say and just turning it around. At this point I've exhausted my attempts to convince you that this argument is moot, yet you continue to string it along. i.e. you are trolling.
You're behaving like a child. If we both agree that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks, why do you continue to post? Just stop and let this thread die.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
WOTC staff and dozens of high-level judges around the world think about and discuss tournament policy constantly. I promise you that it wasn't an "arbitrary, luddite" decision.
I also don't think that disallowing devices is really going to kill Magic. Chess isn't a good analogy anyway--the pieces and board state are all public information. A better analogy might be Poker. Poker seems to be doing fine (though maybe not as hot as it was a few years ago, I don't know), and I'm pretty sure they don't allow electronic devices in tournament play.
Electronic devices are allowed in poker tournament play, which makes this magic ruling funny to me. I have only seen 2 arguments that hold any validity for the electronic device banning.
1) Someone might be sending the person signals of what cards the opponent is holding. Same could be true in poker. Sure its against the rules to pass information like that, but in reality, if you are that paranoid that someone is signaling your cards to your opponent, don't hold your cards so that everyone can see them. Protect your hand. You don't need a smart phone to pass signals.
2) Someone might have access to additional deck tech, what a deck usually runs, how to beat it, sideboard against it, etc. Really? This would be the edge you're concerned about? Its just fine if someone stayed up late researching current deck strategy, but if they try to do it on the fly, then no way bud, that's cheating.
Poker is an entirely different animal. The comparisons to Magic rulings is like comparing Baseball rules to Cricket rules. They are different games and require a different set of rules.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
And games have different levels of popularity. For Magic to maintain popularity into the future, it's going to have to embrace technological innovation, because that's where we are headed as a society. You sound like the "purists" who resist video replay in sports or the three-point shot.
There is a difference between embracing technological innovation and making a rule to prevent technological abuse.
Magic doesn't NEED technology in this form at the moment, so it has no reason to allow personal use in competitive REL (which is likely to be abused). The risk of cheating far outweighs the luxury of use.
I'm flattered you are trying to stereotype me by comparison to some separate topic, but getting the right call in sports is not the same as tracking your life total in Magic. One requires split-second visual confirmation by an official, and the other requires you to not be asleep while playing the game.
Once again you are trying to draw arbitrary parallels.
We are aware of your opinion and that you disagree. But the parallels are not arbitrary; they are accurate and insightful and prophetic. WotC ignores them at its own peril.
I will guarantee you that these rules will be altered again in the next 5 years to be more accommodating to electronic assistance.
It's not an issue and the fact that electronics aren't needed = rule won't change.
*edit*
At the SCG Open, btw, the head judge clearly stated this new rule and the reasoning behind it. Then he said that you are allowed to answer your phone/send text messages at your opponents' discretion, so it's not a blanket ban on electronic devices - just prevention from using them to gain unfair advantage in the game.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Yes, of course they are always re-evaluating rules and policies, and tweaking them as needed. If in 5 years, if there's a need/demand for new technology for players' use, they'll make the change. Right now, there is little (if any) need. Need to keep track of life totals? Use pen & paper. Need to calculate odds? Learn to do it in your head like the pros already do.
And technology is already in use all over tournament logistics. WER (keeping track of players, pairings, results, standings), clocks, smartphones for judges' use (deck-check counters, oracle text lookups, rules/policy lookups), coverage equipment. We're not afraid of technology, we're afraid of players gaining unfair advantages.
They're also not afraid of changing policy to reflect new trends. Unlike professional sports like baseball (which is notoriously resistant to change), Magic tournament policy changes all the time. Every expansion that comes out, there's at least some change. They're not afraid to make major revisions if they make tournament play better (e.g., rules changes in 6th Ed and M10, missed trigger policies). I promise you, if there's a need for a change, it'll get made.
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Level 2 Judge
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
Exactly what electronic assistance should be okay then SirBruce?
I'm a fan of no limits at all, but I'm content with baby steps moving forward as our society transitions to a Borg-ified one. What's unfortunate with this decision is that it's not a step forwards, but a huge reactionary step backwards. (And, contrary to what some people keep asserting, has no polling evidence to indicate if this was the majority preference or not.)
What are you talking about? That's not an answer at all? Should people be able to use phones to track storm counts or to look up podcasts that have the match up in question available? Those are pretty different things.
Exactly what electronic assistance should be okay then SirBruce?
I'm a fan of no limits at all, but I'm content with baby steps moving forward as our society transitions to a Borg-ified one. What's unfortunate with this decision is that it's not a step forwards, but a huge reactionary step backwards. (And, contrary to what some people keep asserting, has no polling evidence to indicate if this was the majority preference or not.)
Way to fail to answer his question.
It's not a "step backwards" to not allow people the opportunity to cheat. You don't need your smart phone in order to play Magic, it is not a necessity. Therefore, at competitive REL, it is restricted to only use as a phone - and only at the discretion of your opponent or between rounds. This is not difficult to understand. Making a rule to curb cheating is not the same thing as WOTC banning electronics altogether and being anti-progressive.
And - contrary to what you keep asserting - there is NO ONE else here who is agreeing with you, and there was NO ONE at the Open who seemed to care. So stop acting like you are arguing from the side of majority because you are not.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
What are you talking about? That's not an answer at all? Should people be able to use phones to track storm counts or to look up podcasts that have the match up in question available? Those are pretty different things.
I said I'm a fan of no limits at all. Yes, people should be able to do both of those things, and eventually they will be able to do so.
It's not a "step backwards" to not allow people the opportunity to cheat. You don't need your smart phone in order to play Magic, it is not a necessity. Therefore, at competitive REL, it is restricted to only use as a phone - and only at the discretion of your opponent or between rounds. This is not difficult to understand. Making a rule to curb cheating is not the same thing as WOTC banning electronics altogether and being anti-progressive.
I never claimed it was difficult to understand, only that it was a step backwards, which it is.
And - contrary to what you keep asserting - there is NO ONE else here who is agreeing with you, and there was NO ONE at the Open who seemed to care. So stop acting like you are arguing from the side of majority because you are not.
I never asserted that anyone here agreed with me, so you're once again misrepresenting what I said. And you are the one who is claiming to be on the side of the majority due to anecdotal evidence, without any scientific poll or survey to back up your claim. Whether I'm in the minority or not is irrelevant to me; I simply pointed out that WotC took no poll to determine this, and thus asserting to know which it is is baseless.
George is right, you're just a troll. Nothing to read here folks. When you demand a poll from someone else and then say, I don't need a poll to prove what I want to prove then..you've lost the plot. Hell you lost the plot when you started talking about polls and Magic. What a joke.
What are you talking about? That's not an answer at all? Should people be able to use phones to track storm counts or to look up podcasts that have the match up in question available? Those are pretty different things.
I said I'm a fan of no limits at all. Yes, people should be able to do both of those things, and eventually they will be able to do so.
It's not a "step backwards" to not allow people the opportunity to cheat. You don't need your smart phone in order to play Magic, it is not a necessity. Therefore, at competitive REL, it is restricted to only use as a phone - and only at the discretion of your opponent or between rounds. This is not difficult to understand. Making a rule to curb cheating is not the same thing as WOTC banning electronics altogether and being anti-progressive.
I never claimed it was difficult to understand, only that it was a step backwards, which it is.
And - contrary to what you keep asserting - there is NO ONE else here who is agreeing with you, and there was NO ONE at the Open who seemed to care. So stop acting like you are arguing from the side of majority because you are not.
I never asserted that anyone here agreed with me, so you're once again misrepresenting what I said. And you are the one who is claiming to be on the side of the majority due to anecdotal evidence, without any scientific poll or survey to back up your claim. Whether I'm in the minority or not is irrelevant to me; I simply pointed out that WotC took no poll to determine this, and thus asserting to know which it is is baseless.
George is right, you're just a troll. Nothing to read here folks. When you demand a poll from someone else and then say, I don't need a poll to prove what I want to prove then..you've lost the plot. Hell you lost the plot when you started talking about polls and Magic. What a joke.
This doesn't make any sense. Just because someone needs a poll to prove their point doesn't mean I need a poll to prove my point. I'm not the one making an assertion that relies on the current opinion of the majority. Lost the plot? We're trying to discuss serious issues here, and you're making quips and engaging in ad hominem.
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Clearly you should try reading it 4 times next. You have no poll that allows you to cite the majority opinion, either, so you're just as in the dark as anyone else. And the only one making a big deal and throwing a hissy fit here is you, who can't get over the fact not everyone agrees with you.
I didn't realize that Magic was a democracy.
Which the whole argument over how many players care about this rule change is moot anyways - since the decision was obviously made without regard to popular opinion. Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle grasping this concept:
The rule change was made to curb cheating regardless of how people feel about it.
And since that's all that matters, your opinion on the subject does not. Grab a pad and pen and move on.
Third this. I was at a sealed PTQ in September where both people at a table were found to have forgotten to de-sideboard one card before starting the round. Each of them received a game loss and they found themselves playing a one-game round.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Fixed
Im only 23 years old but I already feel like an old man in that regard. You can see entire groups of people who know each other standing together with everyone having their phone in their hand and writing with someone that is not present instead of talking to each other.
Definitely a development in society that I dont agree with but to get a bit on-topic while Im a Magic-Online only player I agree with the new rule. Having your phone their and writing with people could lead to cheating so proactively stopping that is the right move. You can't have something like that in tournaments where thousands of dollars are at stake.
It's not. Why don't you try reading the conversation for a change; then you won't harbor such misconceptions.
No, now YOU'RE being delusional. YOU have been carrying on for pages and pages of this thread whining about the most trivial thing this forum has ever discussed. Then YOU claim to back up your 'opinion' with a unsupported claim of majority backing. These are all things YOU are doing, not me.
Strange how two people, yourself included, argued about how many players cared about this rule change if you find it moot. I guess you realized you were making a losing argument, but weren't honest enough to admit you were wrong?
Congratulations, you've finally reached the point I first made many posts again. Maybe if you read all the posts after that sometime, you'll be caught up.
Let me bold this for you since you seem to struggle with grasping this concept:
We already know that it was done regardless of how people feel about it; it was another poster and then yourself that argued the rule change was okay because of how people felt about it.
And since that was wrong, your opinion on the subject was also wrong. Put down your keyboard and step away from the Internet.
Warning for trolling
-ktkenshinx-
Warning for flaming
-ktkenshinx-
Please review the forum rules before posting these sorts of personal attacks next time. You're not doing yourself any favors with your behavior.
You're behaving like a child. If we both agree that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks, why do you continue to post? Just stop and let this thread die.
Electronic devices are allowed in poker tournament play, which makes this magic ruling funny to me. I have only seen 2 arguments that hold any validity for the electronic device banning.
1) Someone might be sending the person signals of what cards the opponent is holding. Same could be true in poker. Sure its against the rules to pass information like that, but in reality, if you are that paranoid that someone is signaling your cards to your opponent, don't hold your cards so that everyone can see them. Protect your hand. You don't need a smart phone to pass signals.
2) Someone might have access to additional deck tech, what a deck usually runs, how to beat it, sideboard against it, etc. Really? This would be the edge you're concerned about? Its just fine if someone stayed up late researching current deck strategy, but if they try to do it on the fly, then no way bud, that's cheating.
Magic doesn't NEED technology in this form at the moment, so it has no reason to allow personal use in competitive REL (which is likely to be abused). The risk of cheating far outweighs the luxury of use.
I'm flattered you are trying to stereotype me by comparison to some separate topic, but getting the right call in sports is not the same as tracking your life total in Magic. One requires split-second visual confirmation by an official, and the other requires you to not be asleep while playing the game.
Once again you are trying to draw arbitrary parallels.
I will guarantee you that these rules will be altered again in the next 5 years to be more accommodating to electronic assistance.
but seriously 60 cards is not that much to keep track of
*edit*
At the SCG Open, btw, the head judge clearly stated this new rule and the reasoning behind it. Then he said that you are allowed to answer your phone/send text messages at your opponents' discretion, so it's not a blanket ban on electronic devices - just prevention from using them to gain unfair advantage in the game.
And technology is already in use all over tournament logistics. WER (keeping track of players, pairings, results, standings), clocks, smartphones for judges' use (deck-check counters, oracle text lookups, rules/policy lookups), coverage equipment. We're not afraid of technology, we're afraid of players gaining unfair advantages.
They're also not afraid of changing policy to reflect new trends. Unlike professional sports like baseball (which is notoriously resistant to change), Magic tournament policy changes all the time. Every expansion that comes out, there's at least some change. They're not afraid to make major revisions if they make tournament play better (e.g., rules changes in 6th Ed and M10, missed trigger policies). I promise you, if there's a need for a change, it'll get made.
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
I'm a fan of no limits at all, but I'm content with baby steps moving forward as our society transitions to a Borg-ified one. What's unfortunate with this decision is that it's not a step forwards, but a huge reactionary step backwards. (And, contrary to what some people keep asserting, has no polling evidence to indicate if this was the majority preference or not.)
Way to fail to answer his question.
It's not a "step backwards" to not allow people the opportunity to cheat. You don't need your smart phone in order to play Magic, it is not a necessity. Therefore, at competitive REL, it is restricted to only use as a phone - and only at the discretion of your opponent or between rounds. This is not difficult to understand. Making a rule to curb cheating is not the same thing as WOTC banning electronics altogether and being anti-progressive.
And - contrary to what you keep asserting - there is NO ONE else here who is agreeing with you, and there was NO ONE at the Open who seemed to care. So stop acting like you are arguing from the side of majority because you are not.
I said I'm a fan of no limits at all. Yes, people should be able to do both of those things, and eventually they will be able to do so.
Incorrect. I answered his question.
I never claimed it was difficult to understand, only that it was a step backwards, which it is.
I never asserted that anyone here agreed with me, so you're once again misrepresenting what I said. And you are the one who is claiming to be on the side of the majority due to anecdotal evidence, without any scientific poll or survey to back up your claim. Whether I'm in the minority or not is irrelevant to me; I simply pointed out that WotC took no poll to determine this, and thus asserting to know which it is is baseless.
This doesn't make any sense. Just because someone needs a poll to prove their point doesn't mean I need a poll to prove my point. I'm not the one making an assertion that relies on the current opinion of the majority. Lost the plot? We're trying to discuss serious issues here, and you're making quips and engaging in ad hominem.