I pity anyone who tries to build a deck based on some kind of synergy because you'll never be able to assemble it with all these disruption effects in Standard. That being said, I prefer the "small creatures with powerful effects" style of Magic to the "let's all play 4/5s for 2 and 6/6s for 4" style. Making a 1/1 or a 2/1 with some potent effect actually gives me time to draw an answer to it or counteract it in some other way before they are killed, whereas an unanswered 5-6 power creature ends the game very quickly without much time to allow the opponent to handle it.
Its nice getting a pseudo-Tidehollow Sculler but I really wish they hadn't tried to fix the clause. Being able to exile something forever is one of the reasons to play cards like O-Ring and Sculler
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
I like the new wording on this and Banishing Light (and Banisher Priest). It just means that the cards work how most players think they should work. It's far more intuitive, which in my opinion is a good thing.
Better yet, will this open the door to the word "banish" just as Path to Exile opened the door to "exile?"
I like the sound of "banish target creature." Sweet idea, yeah?
Its nice getting a pseudo-Tidehollow Sculler but I really wish they hadn't tried to fix the clause. Being able to exile something forever is one of the reasons to play cards like O-Ring and Sculler
This really isn't true. Both cards have seen tons of play without any way to exploit the trigger stack. Tidehollow sees Legacy play without it.
I like the new wording on this and Banishing Light (and Banisher Priest). It just means that the cards work how most players think they should work. It's far more intuitive, which in my opinion is a good thing.
Better yet, will this open the door to the word "banish" just as Path to Exile opened the door to "exile?"
I like the sound of "banish target creature." Sweet idea, yeah?
The fix is undeniably a good thing - these are the way they were supposed to work in the first place.
Yeah, who needs interactive, multi layered effects in Magic. God forbid someone thinks knowing the stack rules it's too much and switches over to CoD.
When I figured out I can use nightmare creatures with sac outlets, it was like Christmas in June. For me the removal of that kind of mechanic exploration is undeniably a bad thing.
I'm inclined to agree with you. In 99% of cases, Sculler and O.Ring function exactly as a new player envisions when they first read them. But they have some added use by "comboing" with some other element in the game that can lead them to more powerful effects. MaRo recently did an article on Lenticular design and these kinds of cards were great examples of a way to do that.
The fix is undeniably a good thing - these are the way they were supposed to work in the first place.
Yeah, who needs interactive, multi layered effects in Magic. God forbid someone thinks knowing the stack rules it's too much and switches over to CoD.
When I figured out I can use nightmare creatures with sac outlets, it was like Christmas in June. For me the removal of that kind of mechanic exploration is undeniably a bad thing.
It also fixes the multiplayer problem. If someone has O-Ringed one of your permanents and you kill him, you don't get that permanent back. That seems very mechanically wrong and will come up far more often.
Yeah I mean the card should go back to their hand but the card doesn't say that so where does it go when brain maggots leaves the field?
It's a new style of ability. Check Banisher Priest's rulings:
Banisher Priest’s ability causes a zone change with a duration, a new style of ability that’s somewhat reminiscent of older cards like Oblivion Ring. However, unlike Oblivion Ring, cards like Banisher Priest have a single ability that creates two one-shot effects: one that exiles the creature when the ability resolves, and another that returns the exiled card to the battlefield immediately after Banisher Priest leaves the battlefield.
The card will go back to the zone it was in before being exiled.
The fix is undeniably a good thing - these are the way they were supposed to work in the first place.
Yeah, who needs interactive, multi layered effects in Magic. God forbid someone thinks knowing the stack rules it's too much and switches over to CoD.
When I figured out I can use nightmare creatures with sac outlets, it was like Christmas in June. For me the removal of that kind of mechanic exploration is undeniably a bad thing.
I'm inclined to agree with you. In 99% of cases, Sculler and O.Ring function exactly as a new player envisions when they first read them. But they have some added use by "comboing" with some other element in the game that can lead them to more powerful effects. MaRo recently did an article on Lenticular design and these kinds of cards were great examples of a way to do that.
Then do it intentionally. These cards were bad versions of it. They weren't complex at all. Remove something while the trigger is on the stack and whatever it was exiling is gone for good. Simple. Not even remotely intuitive. Exceptionally unintuitive. I know the rules very well and am plenty intelligent - it took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on.
Cards like Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Hero of Bladehold are examples of teaching people the intricacies of the stack in the correct, intended, intuitive way (intuitive as long as you understand the very basic rule that things resolve in reverse order).
Yeah I mean the card should go back to their hand but the card doesn't say that so where does it go when brain maggots leaves the field?
They don't need to clarify it further. It's no different than anything else that uses the word "until." Do you need Giant Growth to say "Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn. At the end of the turn, the creature no longer gets +3/+3"? That's what until means. It's simply a temporary effect that lasts until the creature leaves the battlefield. Obviously when it is no longer in effect, it's simply reversed (and therefore, obviously, returned to hand).
It's fragility doesn't seem to matter that much for standard, at least. If it were a 2/2 you'd probably not be blocking with it most of the time anyway, and there is no Gut shot going around. If they use any mainstream removal on this otherwise, that seems fine.
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
Seems like a return to strong black based discard decks. I could see this in the Mono-Black decks after rotation
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Does this return it to the opponent's hand. I'm a noob and I'm confused.
And this here is why the original wording of Mesmeric Fiend was better than the "fixed" version.
To answer your question, yes, it does go back to the person's hand.
The old, longer, more wordy, open for unintended, unintuitive effects wording was better than the absurdly simple new wording just because people don't understand what the word "until" means? Seems reasonable. No one who is asking "where does the card go back to... your hand...?" ever figured out the old ability's interaction with removal/sacrificing in response to the trigger, either.
Perhaps, it just took 95 words to get there. You like your permanent exile shenanigans and using it against new/bad players who don't understand it. That's all there is to it. You can't simultaneously praise an old rule that was regularly misunderstood for its complexity in a miniscule fraction of games where it was more complex and bash a new rule because some incredibly dim individuals aren't 100% sure how it works (although no one would try to do anything besides put it into their hands if they weren't sure anyway) at first. That's utterly absurd. The new rule is simpler and more intuitive in less words and removes an unintended interaction that Wizards didn't balance around. The end.
You like your permanent exile shenanigans and using it against new/bad players who don't understand it. That's all there is to it.
Next time you come up with a *****ty assumption like that, keep it to yourself. I said why I don't like the change, you chose to ignore it, that's your problem. But don't try to drag me through your personal mud pool.
Except your reason makes no sense. You're basically saying that something that takes a 1st grade reading level to understand 90% of and a 10th grade reading level to understand 10% of is simpler than something that takes a 2nd grade reading level to understand 100% of.
New version is shorter. New version is just as clear for anyone with any even remote understanding of the game OR the language the card is printed in. New version has no unintended mechanics that new players never, ever understand and even non-new players sometimes struggle with. New version is better in literally every way unless you like to annoy new players with unnecessarily complex rules.
When I figured out I can use nightmare creatures with sac outlets, it was like Christmas in June. For me the removal of that kind of mechanic exploration is undeniably a bad thing.
But you keep insisting my motivation is to annoy people. We're done here.
Again, it's not "mechanic exploration." You discovered a bug. An unintuitive, uninteresting bug that gives cards completely absurd functionality in very narrow situations that no one ever even remotely intended for them to have. You like bugs? Cool. That doesn't mean they're good. Particularly when including them makes the card twice as wordy.
As I said before, something like Tangle Wire is a cool bit of discovery when you first realize that you can stack the triggers in a way that makes it better than it appears. That's intended. It's cool. It makes complete sense as soon as you realize it. Average people have a legitimate chance of figuring it out on their own. The old version of this temporary exiling was bugged, nothing more.
Whatever you want to call it, Jermo--a bug, exploring the mechanics, maximizing gameplay, etc.--your opinion that it's uninteresting is just that: your opinion. I agree that taking the loophole out is more intuitive and makes more sense from a flavor standpoint. It's similar to how combat damage was taken off the stack--Mogg Fanatic became worse, which was disappointing (and sad times for a red mage like me), but the change made practical sense as well as flavor coherency. After all, how could you blow yourself up and then deal combat damage? However, despite the fact I agree with you, I know that my opinion is just my opinion. And really, using the stack to permanently exile something is not really MtG kung fu.. people know about it and it's hardly "broken." Summary: not a big deal either way but it's better without the loophole, which doesn't make sense flavor-wise.
Jerome is right by the most basic definition of being right...they changed the rule. It was never intended to work that way, it was harder for new people to understand(which IS an advantage) and offered very little to the game since it was an exploit. I liked the interaction but being unintended....I knew they would change it and had no problem with it.
Back to the card, this is a decent card considering the standard format. Just like thoughtseize has been used to make pack rat more powerful, this card will benefit from thoughtseize and probably be a huge PitA. This card is a natural fit in a athreos based deck.
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-Anonymous
Nope, that's a Yu-gi-oh keyword
This really isn't true. Both cards have seen tons of play without any way to exploit the trigger stack. Tidehollow sees Legacy play without it.
Standard: W/R Aggro
I think that Exile opened up the door to Exile.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm inclined to agree with you. In 99% of cases, Sculler and O.Ring function exactly as a new player envisions when they first read them. But they have some added use by "comboing" with some other element in the game that can lead them to more powerful effects. MaRo recently did an article on Lenticular design and these kinds of cards were great examples of a way to do that.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
It also fixes the multiplayer problem. If someone has O-Ringed one of your permanents and you kill him, you don't get that permanent back. That seems very mechanically wrong and will come up far more often.
It's a new style of ability. Check Banisher Priest's rulings:
The card will go back to the zone it was in before being exiled.
Then do it intentionally. These cards were bad versions of it. They weren't complex at all. Remove something while the trigger is on the stack and whatever it was exiling is gone for good. Simple. Not even remotely intuitive. Exceptionally unintuitive. I know the rules very well and am plenty intelligent - it took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on.
Cards like Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Hero of Bladehold are examples of teaching people the intricacies of the stack in the correct, intended, intuitive way (intuitive as long as you understand the very basic rule that things resolve in reverse order).
They don't need to clarify it further. It's no different than anything else that uses the word "until." Do you need Giant Growth to say "Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn. At the end of the turn, the creature no longer gets +3/+3"? That's what until means. It's simply a temporary effect that lasts until the creature leaves the battlefield. Obviously when it is no longer in effect, it's simply reversed (and therefore, obviously, returned to hand).
.
—Karn, silver golem
And this here is why the original wording of Mesmeric Fiend was better than the "fixed" version.
To answer your question, yes, it does go back to the person's hand.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Right? It should totally be a 2/1 plus have Ravenous Rats' effect tacked on as well.
The old, longer, more wordy, open for unintended, unintuitive effects wording was better than the absurdly simple new wording just because people don't understand what the word "until" means? Seems reasonable. No one who is asking "where does the card go back to... your hand...?" ever figured out the old ability's interaction with removal/sacrificing in response to the trigger, either.
Plus, it's better in EDH.
Except your reason makes no sense. You're basically saying that something that takes a 1st grade reading level to understand 90% of and a 10th grade reading level to understand 10% of is simpler than something that takes a 2nd grade reading level to understand 100% of.
New version is shorter. New version is just as clear for anyone with any even remote understanding of the game OR the language the card is printed in. New version has no unintended mechanics that new players never, ever understand and even non-new players sometimes struggle with. New version is better in literally every way unless you like to annoy new players with unnecessarily complex rules.
Again, it's not "mechanic exploration." You discovered a bug. An unintuitive, uninteresting bug that gives cards completely absurd functionality in very narrow situations that no one ever even remotely intended for them to have. You like bugs? Cool. That doesn't mean they're good. Particularly when including them makes the card twice as wordy.
As I said before, something like Tangle Wire is a cool bit of discovery when you first realize that you can stack the triggers in a way that makes it better than it appears. That's intended. It's cool. It makes complete sense as soon as you realize it. Average people have a legitimate chance of figuring it out on their own. The old version of this temporary exiling was bugged, nothing more.
Back to the card, this is a decent card considering the standard format. Just like thoughtseize has been used to make pack rat more powerful, this card will benefit from thoughtseize and probably be a huge PitA. This card is a natural fit in a athreos based deck.