With all the revival that WB has access to, not to mention artifact recovery that was in both Mirrodin sets yeah this will make the ravager pretty damn scary again. I'm actually a bit amazed he's not banned in Modern (he was in standard lol). But the artifact lands are still banned AFAIK so that puts a damper on just how psychotic he can get.
Still, Ravager & the other arcbound critters love this guy to tears.
That was part of my argument but the other was that the punisher mechanics is weak. It's useless in midrange because midrange doesn't need no make opponents lose 3 life it needs to stick a large threat and avoid losing before it does. and useless in control because control doesn't run many creatures. Would you ever put Blood Artist in a midrange deck? How about control? No, you would play it in an aggressive deck that can reliably trigger it like zombies or in aristocrats. Now this card also has the other effect that they can return it to your hand which allows for cards like Scavenging ooze to negate the effect entirely or can prevent you from closing the game while your opponent stabilizes. In order to capitalize on the ability you would have to have very strong "when ~ dies" or "sacrifice a creature:" effects to compliment it so that regardless of the ability that they choose you still get an effect other than bounce target creature you control. I don't believe that there is a strong enough card base for an aristocrats style deck in standard at the moment but feel free to prove me wrong. Now as far as it having a potentially undercosted body with a punisher mechanic tacked on, it's sort of like a mini Mogis, God of Slaughter which has proven to be pretty weak. It may be that the punisher mechanic on athreos is stronger in most situation and that a 5 power 3cmc god is still good without evation but even if it is I think that people are overestimating the power of this card by a very large margin. For example it was proposed that it could have a place in pod where it would probably just be a blood artist that cant be sac'd to birthing pod.
The biggest problem with your argument here is that Athreos, God of Passage's effect is not a mere run of the mill punisher effect. The effect has broad implications. The punisher mechanic is broad enough to function against most all decks with effectiveness. Chump blockers have recursion or opponent takes 3. Removal costs and additional 3 life in most cases. Comparing him to Mogis, God of Slaughter is not even a remotely accurate comparison. Mogis triggers once a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that may or may not be relevant, is two damage, and has a CMC of 4. Athreos's effect can trigger multiple times a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that will virtually always be relevant, is a 3 life loss, and has a CMC of 3. He's definitely no mini-Mogis, if anything he's Mogis juiced up on an HGH / Insulin cycle. Additionally, it adds a punisher effect where none exists and therefore can be thought of as an amplification effect for certain deck constructions. There are also several cards with abilities using sacrifice that now may operate on a fundamentally different level with Athreos in play. Cartel Aristocrat and Tymaret, the Murder King have been brought up, but there are others. I'm not saying Shadowborn Apostle is suddenly playable, but Atheros makes giving him a second look worth it. Blood Bairn looks like an interesting card now.
Atheros is much more likely to be formatting warping than overestimated.
The biggest problem with your argument here is that Athreos, God of Passage's effect is not a mere run of the mill punisher effect. The effect has broad implications. The punisher mechanic is broad enough to function against most all decks with effectiveness. Chump blockers have recursion or opponent takes 3. Removal costs and additional 3 life in most cases. Comparing him to Mogis, God of Slaughter is not even a remotely accurate comparison. Mogis triggers once a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that may or may not be relevant, is two damage, and has a CMC of 4. Athreos's effect can trigger multiple times a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that will virtually always be relevant, is a 3 life loss, and has a CMC of 3. He's definitely no mini-Mogis, if anything he's Mogis juiced up on an HGH / Insulin cycle. Additionally, it adds a punisher effect where none exists and therefore can be thought of as an amplification effect for certain deck constructions. There are also several cards with abilities using sacrifice that now may operate on a fundamentally different level with Athreos in play. Cartel Aristocrat and Tymaret, the Murder King have been brought up, but there are others. I'm not saying Shadowborn Apostle is suddenly playable, but Atheros makes giving him a second look worth it. Blood Bairn looks like an interesting card now.
Atheros is much more likely to be formatting warping than overestimated.
I actually find it really funny how Athreos, God of Passage works against Mogis, God of Slaughter. Sac and creature and either your opponent takes 3 or you just get it back. With Xathrid Necromancer and one cheap guy on the field its silly. I like the card personally. I'm going to try it out in a W/B Humans deck with Xathrid Necromancer and friends. Should be a fun time to have.
Love the card but what's with the awkward spelling?
He shall be forever known as Atheros, God of Dyslexia.
I have seen others mention this, too. I wonder what the problem with his name is - Athreos seems quite easy to remember and to write. Then again, I can't stop thinking that the RW god is called Ioras...
Love the card but what's with the awkward spelling?
He shall be forever known as Atheros, God of Dyslexia.
I have seen others mention this, too. I wonder what the problem with his name is - Athreos seems quite easy to remember and to write. Then again, I can't stop thinking that the RW god is called Ioras...
I have no problems with it either, but it makes me realise why the Japanese names in Kamigawa must have seemed insurmountably challenging to a lot of players…
Didn't read it all, but Athreos must be the god with more control about its enchantment/creature condition. You just need some creatures that can auto-sac others so, Athreos is never in danger of being removed by creature spells.
To make it clearlier, examples as Blood Bairn and Cartel Aristocrat (the most realistic ones, since they are on his colors without mixing-up others, make this possible. You can play aggro, and have the devotion enough to make Athreos a creature, and then use it to attack. In case some creature removal points at him, you can use your other creatures to sac enough so devotion resets and he is no longer a creature again. For me, this is a really interesting and unique attribute on him, you can play around him being an enchantment or an enchantment creature, with less risks than the other gods, in a cool and elegant way in terms of reusability or utility. Erebos or Phenax gain nothing on this, and the other one, Pharika, gets more fodder for her deadly snakes, but definitely, Athreos makes the best use of this mechanic.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere, but I am not sure. While it is on curve, you would have to play three color for it and that makes it a lot harder to have both Atheros and Sparky out on turns three and four respectively.
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I believe it was mentioned somewhere, but I am not sure. While it is on curve, you would have to play three color for it and that makes it a lot harder to have both Atheros and Sparky out on turns three and four respectively.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere, but I am not sure. While it is on curve, you would have to play three color for it and that makes it a lot harder to have both Atheros and Sparky out on turns three and four respectively.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere, but I am not sure. While it is on curve, you would have to play three color for it and that makes it a lot harder to have both Atheros and Sparky out on turns three and four respectively.
Mana Confluence?
There are like 3-4 Creatures costing 1-2cc that are 3/1 haste and trample. Go mono red splash black White. Could be a thing of thought out more.
I am a rules advisor and this card presents a question that stumps me. If your only opponent has hexproof or shroud, does the ability get countered because you couldn't target an opponent, or does it resolve and there's no opponent to target so no one gets the option of paying life?
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
I am a rules advisor and this card presents a question that stumps me. If your only opponent has hexproof or shroud, does the ability get countered because you couldn't target an opponent, or does it resolve and there's no opponent to target so no one gets the option of paying life?
I am not a judge or anything, but it says "return to hand unless target opponent pays 3 life." So my guess is, the creature goes back to your hand because no opponent can be targeted to pay 3 life and prevent the effect.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I am a rules advisor and this card presents a question that stumps me. If your only opponent has hexproof or shroud, does the ability get countered because you couldn't target an opponent, or does it resolve and there's no opponent to target so no one gets the option of paying life?
Correct. The ability doesn't even go on the stack, actually.
I am not a judge or anything, but it says "return to hand unless target opponent pays 3 life." So my guess is, the creature goes back to your hand because no opponent can be targeted to pay 3 life and prevent the effect.
That is my INITIAL reaction. But because there are no legal targets and the trigger requires a target, I can also assume that there's no legal target and therefore it triggers and fails to resolve.
Correct. The ability doesn't even go on the stack, actually.
Which is correct? It would still very much go on the stack, I presume. There is a trigger, whenever the creature dies, and that trigger does happen. It just might fail.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
Though the synergy between this and Orzhov humans is great, there is one other card that struck me as having an interesting synergy with Athreos: Judge's Familiar. With Athreos on the table he reads:
"Sacrifice Judge's Familiar. Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless your opponent pays 1. When Judge's familiar dies, return him to your hand unless your opponent pays three life."
He's either a repeatable counter spell on a stick, or a counter spell on a stick + Bump In The Night. I like that.
I am not a judge or anything, but it says "return to hand unless target opponent pays 3 life." So my guess is, the creature goes back to your hand because no opponent can be targeted to pay 3 life and prevent the effect.
That is my INITIAL reaction. But because there are no legal targets and the trigger requires a target, I can also assume that there's no legal target and therefore it triggers and fails to resolve.
Correct. The ability doesn't even go on the stack, actually.
Which is correct? It would still very much go on the stack, I presume. There is a trigger, whenever the creature dies, and that trigger does happen. It just might fail.
The ability absolutely uses the stack, and absolutely fails if your opponent has hexproof.
I am not a judge or anything, but it says "return to hand unless target opponent pays 3 life." So my guess is, the creature goes back to your hand because no opponent can be targeted to pay 3 life and prevent the effect.
That is my INITIAL reaction. But because there are no legal targets and the trigger requires a target, I can also assume that there's no legal target and therefore it triggers and fails to resolve.
Correct. The ability doesn't even go on the stack, actually.
Which is correct? It would still very much go on the stack, I presume. There is a trigger, whenever the creature dies, and that trigger does happen. It just might fail.
The ability absolutely uses the stack, and absolutely fails if your opponent has hexproof.
I think what ManyCookies meant is that the trigger would never happen because it needs a target, similarly to how you can't cast a Murder when there aren't any creatures on the battlefield. When it can trigger, yes, the ability uses the stack. When there are no valid targets, the conditions required for it to trigger are never met, therefore, it never actually goes onto the stack at all.
With all the revival that WB has access to, not to mention artifact recovery that was in both Mirrodin sets yeah this will make the ravager pretty damn scary again. I'm actually a bit amazed he's not banned in Modern (he was in standard lol). But the artifact lands are still banned AFAIK so that puts a damper on just how psychotic he can get.
Still, Ravager & the other arcbound critters love this guy to tears.
The biggest problem with your argument here is that Athreos, God of Passage's effect is not a mere run of the mill punisher effect. The effect has broad implications. The punisher mechanic is broad enough to function against most all decks with effectiveness. Chump blockers have recursion or opponent takes 3. Removal costs and additional 3 life in most cases. Comparing him to Mogis, God of Slaughter is not even a remotely accurate comparison. Mogis triggers once a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that may or may not be relevant, is two damage, and has a CMC of 4. Athreos's effect can trigger multiple times a turn, can be prevented if needed with an effect that will virtually always be relevant, is a 3 life loss, and has a CMC of 3. He's definitely no mini-Mogis, if anything he's Mogis juiced up on an HGH / Insulin cycle. Additionally, it adds a punisher effect where none exists and therefore can be thought of as an amplification effect for certain deck constructions. There are also several cards with abilities using sacrifice that now may operate on a fundamentally different level with Athreos in play. Cartel Aristocrat and Tymaret, the Murder King have been brought up, but there are others. I'm not saying Shadowborn Apostle is suddenly playable, but Atheros makes giving him a second look worth it. Blood Bairn looks like an interesting card now.
Atheros is much more likely to be formatting warping than overestimated.
I actually find it really funny how Athreos, God of Passage works against Mogis, God of Slaughter. Sac and creature and either your opponent takes 3 or you just get it back. With Xathrid Necromancer and one cheap guy on the field its silly. I like the card personally. I'm going to try it out in a W/B Humans deck with Xathrid Necromancer and friends. Should be a fun time to have.
I have seen others mention this, too. I wonder what the problem with his name is - Athreos seems quite easy to remember and to write. Then again, I can't stop thinking that the RW god is called Ioras...
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I have no problems with it either, but it makes me realise why the Japanese names in Kamigawa must have seemed insurmountably challenging to a lot of players…
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
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Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
I think he means Golgari Charm to destroy Rest In Peace.
To make it clearlier, examples as Blood Bairn and Cartel Aristocrat (the most realistic ones, since they are on his colors without mixing-up others, make this possible. You can play aggro, and have the devotion enough to make Athreos a creature, and then use it to attack. In case some creature removal points at him, you can use your other creatures to sac enough so devotion resets and he is no longer a creature again. For me, this is a really interesting and unique attribute on him, you can play around him being an enchantment or an enchantment creature, with less risks than the other gods, in a cool and elegant way in terms of reusability or utility. Erebos or Phenax gain nothing on this, and the other one, Pharika, gets more fodder for her deadly snakes, but definitely, Athreos makes the best use of this mechanic.
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I don't think it is too hard with shocks and mana confluence coming into play. Other good cards are High Priest of Penance and Voice of Resurgence.
Mana Confluence?
There are like 3-4 Creatures costing 1-2cc that are 3/1 haste and trample. Go mono red splash black White. Could be a thing of thought out more.
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I am not a judge or anything, but it says "return to hand unless target opponent pays 3 life." So my guess is, the creature goes back to your hand because no opponent can be targeted to pay 3 life and prevent the effect.
Correct. The ability doesn't even go on the stack, actually.
That is my INITIAL reaction. But because there are no legal targets and the trigger requires a target, I can also assume that there's no legal target and therefore it triggers and fails to resolve.
Which is correct? It would still very much go on the stack, I presume. There is a trigger, whenever the creature dies, and that trigger does happen. It just might fail.
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
T1: Thoughtseize
T2: Brain Maggot
T3: Athreos, God of Passage
T4: Whatever the hell I want, because, how do you come back from that?
Though the synergy between this and Orzhov humans is great, there is one other card that struck me as having an interesting synergy with Athreos: Judge's Familiar. With Athreos on the table he reads:
"Sacrifice Judge's Familiar. Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless your opponent pays 1. When Judge's familiar dies, return him to your hand unless your opponent pays three life."
He's either a repeatable counter spell on a stick, or a counter spell on a stick + Bump In The Night. I like that.
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The ability absolutely uses the stack, and absolutely fails if your opponent has hexproof.
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I think what ManyCookies meant is that the trigger would never happen because it needs a target, similarly to how you can't cast a Murder when there aren't any creatures on the battlefield. When it can trigger, yes, the ability uses the stack. When there are no valid targets, the conditions required for it to trigger are never met, therefore, it never actually goes onto the stack at all.