Not the good ones. Waste Not does nothing on its own, and the discard spells aren't always the best either in some match ups. In the matchups where you want all of those discard spells, you don't have room for Waste Not. In the match ups where you side out discard, obviously Waste Not is bad. You can't afford to have cards that do nothing on their own in Modern unless the immediately win you the game. Waste Not only provides incremental advantage over time, and only if you have other cards to activate it.
I definitely see where your coming from and I have a counter point to show what I'm thinking. Pyromancer Ascension does nothing on it's own and you even have to work to activate it. Waste Not is similar in the niche it fills and I believe just as powerful if not more so because your opponents actions can trigger it as well (cycling creatures in Living End). Megrim effects have been around for quite some time and never taken a foot hold because they present no board presence and no card advantage. This presents both in one package and may be another Liliana's Caress, but I'm going to go out on a limb and throw this in Aggro Loam as soon as I can. (Maybe Pox Loam)
It's all well and good unbanning a card, but they should have reprinted it first, or have plans to reprint it again. The secondary market for these things just went out of most people's reach. Only desperate tournament players and nutters with more money than sense will pay 80 dollars for a bitterblossom.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
There is currently no website, bar ebay with 1 left at 72$ ish with the buy me now option, with any bitterblossom at under 80$. This is insane. TCGPLAYER is sold out period!
Wow.
Oh and I approve the DRS ban!
Yea, I am bit peeved by the price jump. I would need 3 more for a play set.
the very first fnm game i ever played was with a naya deck with wild natcal and bloodbraid elf......2 weeks later i had to make a completly new deck =_= im just glad they unbanned one card at least....i know everyone is talking about fetchland and its kinda boring but if you dont wish for fetchlands anytime soon you're not a real modern player.....i also dont know how to react about drs ban :0
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
english aint my first language
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
It's all well and good unbanning a card, but they should have reprinted it first, or have plans to reprint it again. The secondary market for these things just went out of most people's reach. Only desperate tournament players and nutters with more money than sense will pay 80 dollars for a bitterblossom.
Wizards loves to aggravate people. They wait till it peaks then put it in a Block, thoughtseize I'm looking at you.
in short no because it adds to bad top decks late game and doesn't do anything the turn you play it assuming its turn 2. forces you to play poorly ie hold the discard spell for waste not to get that magical extra value haha
8-Rack sometimes plays Dark Confidant. It will play Waste Not.
Good unbans. Wild nacatl and friends have always been insanely good against bitter blossom, so thats a great tandem unban. Death rite shaman is a fine ban. Like man other cards in magics history, is way too good with fetch lands (anyone else noticing the problem card here?)
Um, no. Wild Nacatl was unbanned, so the fetches obviously aren't the problem.
It's all well and good unbanning a card, but they should have reprinted it first, or have plans to reprint it again. The secondary market for these things just went out of most people's reach. Only desperate tournament players and nutters with more money than sense will pay 80 dollars for a bitterblossom.
It will most likely get reprinted in the Modern Event Deck.
It's all well and good unbanning a card, but they should have reprinted it first, or have plans to reprint it again. The secondary market for these things just went out of most people's reach. Only desperate tournament players and nutters with more money than sense will pay 80 dollars for a bitterblossom.
This is not Wizards' problem, this is a problem of the secondary market. Unless the speculation issue is addressed, you can expect this kind of hike for almost any unbanned card with even a semi-limited supply.
On topic of the banlist changes, I like them. Hopefully this will shut up some of the complaining of Legacy players as to how Modern's banlist proves it's a bad format.
Super-happy with all of these, but oh dear god, the price of bitterblossom became unreal! I really hope this is just a temporary price spike. If not a reprint in modern masters 2 would be appreciated. at RARE please.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I already posted here but I expanded upon my initial thoughts:
I love the unbanning but banning DRS was the wrong move. Wizards has put a very strong nail in the coffin that is the faith and stability of the Modern format. If a card as "innocent" as Deathrite is banned for merely being good where does it end? Will Pod be next even though it isn't dominating? What about Lightning Bolt once Zoo picks up in popularity? Where is the line in the sand because banning Deathrite has set a very dangerous new precedent. They are basically saying if a deck is simply good they will ban a card from it. They already started this with the Storm and now they have cemented this trend with Deathrite.
They are essencially doing exactly what you are not supposed to do with a banlist, which is use it to tailor a format rather than be a stopgap to prevent from degenrating. Another game does this too, Yugioh, and you can see just how big and ridiculous the banlist is. That is the road WotC is paving.
Speaking of WotC, they're description of why the banned DRS is a bloody joke. They basically say, and this is paraphrasing of course, that they DRS is a mana dork that does other stuff too... Oh really? I never would have guessed by RTFC. Or how about the other reason, that it allowed the BGx Midrange decks to trade 1-for-1 efficiently... seriously? As if a deck could trade 1-for-1 in an inefficient manor. What do you think 1-for-1 means?
All in all, the banning of Deathrite might have a immediate positive impact on the format but is going to overall damage the format in ways other than the card table. There is a reason Modern struggles to be widely supported where as formats like Standard and Legacy flourish. Stability. And by banning cards that are not direct threats onto the formats health you are only furthering destabilizing the format. People's trust in the format will continue to wane, and if it continues we are going to be left with Extended all over again.
Also, saying that Deathrite was deserving of a ban because "It is the best X" is idiotic. There will always be a best X; best deck, best burn spell, best one drop... but that does not make it something worth banning. Modern is supposed to be a powerful format, when you include sets from the past 10 years cards are going to push boundaries.
I also guess I should be clear on one thing, I do think DRS is a poorly designed card and a blatant color pie offender. That said, when you decide you want a non-rotating format you have to roll with some punches. You can't just have a knee-jerk reaction to every card that is good.
Haha in no way. Seeing DRS banned makes me see how much safer it is to buy Legacy cards. What's next on banhammer - Thoughtseize and Tiago? Karn? Pod? Fetches?
I wouldn't worry about losing an investment in a $15 card (DRS). It's not like fetches, Liliana, or Tarmogoyf were banned. Those staples are still awesome and expensive. Survival of the Fittest was banned in Legacy just after spiking to $60...Jace at $100 in Standard... No format is immune to bans on expensive cards.
(However you are correct that Legacy is a better investment, but this is because of the reserved list and Wizards' 'Disney Vault' of eternal format staples)
Anyways, if the DRS reprint is a pain on anyone's pockets, you should be complaining about the Thoughtseize reprint more.
I like the moves, but this is probably the last bit of attention I will pay to the game for a few months. The game is getting a little too far out of whack for my tastes. (and I just bought a Nintendo 3DS XL)
I hope everyone has fun with Wild Nacatl, BB, and $75 precons!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks:
Legacy: RWBG Goblins RRR Burn WBU Affinity UBR Sac-Land Tendrils! BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Super-happy with all of these, but oh dear god, the price of bitterblossom became unreal! I really hope this is just a temporary price spike. If not a reprint in modern masters 2 would be appreciated. at RARE please.
I'm sure that it will be reprinted in the Modern Event Deck.
Modern
Deathrite Shaman is banned. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are unbanned.
Standard, Legacy, Vintage
No changes
Discuss.
Well on one hand two cards with no right to be on the list came off finally. On the other hand wotc continues to play whack a mole with the format. There still is no reason to try to make a tier 1 deck in modern as the best deck is rewarded with a ban just about every update.
Whee I get to put primeval titan back in my edh deck, I can't take that banlist seriously anymore. Green needs one decent tutor target for both fat and ramp.
Q: Dear Mr. Rosewater: This is something I wanted to ask a long time ago, and suddenly I realize I have the chance. I remember there was an apology issued for Bitterblossom. Do you consider Bitterblossom a mistake?
A: It was a mistake in that it ended up more powerful than we meant it to be.
Q: HI Maro, this might not be your department, but could you please explain why Bitterblossom is banned in Modern? I would very much like to see it unbanned
Whee I get to put primeval titan back in my edh deck, I can't take that banlist seriously anymore. Green needs one decent tutor target for both fat and ramp.
Green is hands down the best color in Commander, and there are still plenty of tutor targets. If you want a fat target, you still have both Terastodon and Woodfall Primus. If you want ramp, you're green, you have plenty of that already. If you NEED your fat creatures to ramp, you've built a pretty terrible deck. Green isn't hurt by this ban at all, and it was an incredibly unfun card to play against because most people were dicks, and this comes from someone who had it in about 4 decks and owned 10+ of them. If you think this is a poor ban, you were probably just using the card to make the game unfun for others and the reason for the ban in the first place.
DRS is practically a one-manner Planeswalker that doesn't worry about loyalty counters. Anyone defending the cause of continuing playing DRS in Modern is more concerned with losing the ability to play a degenerate card than the health of the format itself.
I found the card very fun to play with. I'm on the side that thinks it needed banned but I'm still sad I won't be able to play it anymore.
I don't think Melira Pod will do as well without DRS. It played it as a 4-of. What I am expecting is for Twin, Faeries, and Zoo to do well.
Melira Pod does not care at all. It was a top tier deck before DRS, it will remain a top tier deck after DRS unless some meta shift like lots of RG Tron showing up happens. Pod can run Noble Hierarch just fine, and if it didn't have that it wouldn't even be a hit to use Avacyn's Pilgrim instead. It just might combo rather than aggro win slightly more often.
the WotC staff is primarily made up of casuals. when you have casuals able to pick and choose cards to deem as 'too good' you get stupid **** like this. they made Fae a deck again, gave Zoo back their marquee card, and banned a card that didn't need to be banned (that sounds like Modern's entire gimmick).
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
the WotC staff is primarily made up of casuals. when you have casuals able to pick and choose cards to deem as 'too good' you get stupid **** like this. they made Fae a deck again, gave Zoo back their marquee card, and banned a card that didn't need to be banned (that sounds like Modern's entire gimmick).
What makes you think they are made up of casual players? Considering nearly every person on the development team has a PT Top 8, that's an odd description to use for them.
HAHAHA I called all these bans and Unbans (which wasn't a hard guess, the speculation for all three was all over the place)
The funny thing is I said these three when talking about the Bans and Unbans on friday night with the shop owner and another player and they said I was crazy to think they would unban Bitterblossom, and Banning deathrite shaman, though they both agreed with Wild Nacatl being unbanned, never should have been banned in the first place.
Now with the Sylvan Primordial ban in EDH, it kind of sucks but I can understand the hate for the card. Yes I agree there is a lot more broken cards that interacted with Primordial (Deadeye Navigator) but in a multiplayer game, if it hit just once it was still devastating for your opponent. Oh well, now I am going to go back to blinking Phyrexian Ingester, Diluvian Primordial, Draining Whelk, Mystic Snake, Eternal Witness, etc, etc, etc.
Does anyone see where I am going with that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Some call it a Habit, Cardboard Crack Addict
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
Irritated with the DRS ban, but I'll just use this as an opportunity to scoop up more copies as people firesale them. Stoneforge trajectory is assured with this guy
Sylvan ban is just more uninformed bull**** ala Primeval Titan. Kokusho eventually came off the list and those two will as well some day.
Banning DRS is ridiculous.
I don't play DRS. I don't even play a deck that has a good matchup with Jund.
Still I think that the ban is ridiculous. You are killing probably the only fair deck in Modern. Now the format will be overrun by degenerate decks that were kept in check by DRS: Living End, various Reanimators. Pod will be better and will start to dominate once again.
You've done so much testing in the last 3 hours that you know what the format is going to look like already? Bravo sir.
Zoo could help keep Pod in check as it can pressure their life total fast enough to force them into plays that slow the deck down and Bolt to kill the Melira. Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks are going to be very important in that match up. If Zoo splashed blue like it did at PT Philly, it will also have some counterspells and Bant Charm for Pods.
If a Faeries deck shows up, that will also help keep Pod in check as it offers reasonable counterspells to stop the combo half of the deck. Again, Voice is going to be important.
Pod will probably the deck to beat, but there will tools to beat it. You can also just go bigger and play Tron which has always had a reasonable match up.
Pod will probably the deck to beat, but there will tools to beat it. You can also just go bigger and play Tron which has always had a reasonable match up.
Tron has much more than a reasonable matchup. As a Pod player against R/G Tron I'm thrilled if I can even make it a 1-2 loss for me.
I definitely see where your coming from and I have a counter point to show what I'm thinking. Pyromancer Ascension does nothing on it's own and you even have to work to activate it. Waste Not is similar in the niche it fills and I believe just as powerful if not more so because your opponents actions can trigger it as well (cycling creatures in Living End). Megrim effects have been around for quite some time and never taken a foot hold because they present no board presence and no card advantage. This presents both in one package and may be another Liliana's Caress, but I'm going to go out on a limb and throw this in Aggro Loam as soon as I can. (Maybe Pox Loam)
Less maindeck hate is golden, just gotta dust off those hierarchs.
Yea, I am bit peeved by the price jump. I would need 3 more for a play set.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
Wizards loves to aggravate people. They wait till it peaks then put it in a Block, thoughtseize I'm looking at you.
8-Rack sometimes plays Dark Confidant. It will play Waste Not.
Um, no. Wild Nacatl was unbanned, so the fetches obviously aren't the problem.
It will most likely get reprinted in the Modern Event Deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is not Wizards' problem, this is a problem of the secondary market. Unless the speculation issue is addressed, you can expect this kind of hike for almost any unbanned card with even a semi-limited supply.
On topic of the banlist changes, I like them. Hopefully this will shut up some of the complaining of Legacy players as to how Modern's banlist proves it's a bad format.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
I love the unbanning but banning DRS was the wrong move. Wizards has put a very strong nail in the coffin that is the faith and stability of the Modern format. If a card as "innocent" as Deathrite is banned for merely being good where does it end? Will Pod be next even though it isn't dominating? What about Lightning Bolt once Zoo picks up in popularity? Where is the line in the sand because banning Deathrite has set a very dangerous new precedent. They are basically saying if a deck is simply good they will ban a card from it. They already started this with the Storm and now they have cemented this trend with Deathrite.
They are essencially doing exactly what you are not supposed to do with a banlist, which is use it to tailor a format rather than be a stopgap to prevent from degenrating. Another game does this too, Yugioh, and you can see just how big and ridiculous the banlist is. That is the road WotC is paving.
Speaking of WotC, they're description of why the banned DRS is a bloody joke. They basically say, and this is paraphrasing of course, that they DRS is a mana dork that does other stuff too... Oh really? I never would have guessed by RTFC. Or how about the other reason, that it allowed the BGx Midrange decks to trade 1-for-1 efficiently... seriously? As if a deck could trade 1-for-1 in an inefficient manor. What do you think 1-for-1 means?
All in all, the banning of Deathrite might have a immediate positive impact on the format but is going to overall damage the format in ways other than the card table. There is a reason Modern struggles to be widely supported where as formats like Standard and Legacy flourish. Stability. And by banning cards that are not direct threats onto the formats health you are only furthering destabilizing the format. People's trust in the format will continue to wane, and if it continues we are going to be left with Extended all over again.
Also, saying that Deathrite was deserving of a ban because "It is the best X" is idiotic. There will always be a best X; best deck, best burn spell, best one drop... but that does not make it something worth banning. Modern is supposed to be a powerful format, when you include sets from the past 10 years cards are going to push boundaries.
I also guess I should be clear on one thing, I do think DRS is a poorly designed card and a blatant color pie offender. That said, when you decide you want a non-rotating format you have to roll with some punches. You can't just have a knee-jerk reaction to every card that is good.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
I wouldn't worry about losing an investment in a $15 card (DRS). It's not like fetches, Liliana, or Tarmogoyf were banned. Those staples are still awesome and expensive. Survival of the Fittest was banned in Legacy just after spiking to $60...Jace at $100 in Standard... No format is immune to bans on expensive cards.
(However you are correct that Legacy is a better investment, but this is because of the reserved list and Wizards' 'Disney Vault' of eternal format staples)
Anyways, if the DRS reprint is a pain on anyone's pockets, you should be complaining about the Thoughtseize reprint more.
I like the moves, but this is probably the last bit of attention I will pay to the game for a few months. The game is getting a little too far out of whack for my tastes. (and I just bought a Nintendo 3DS XL)
I hope everyone has fun with Wild Nacatl, BB, and $75 precons!
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
I'm sure that it will be reprinted in the Modern Event Deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Well on one hand two cards with no right to be on the list came off finally. On the other hand wotc continues to play whack a mole with the format. There still is no reason to try to make a tier 1 deck in modern as the best deck is rewarded with a ban just about every update.
Whee I get to put primeval titan back in my edh deck, I can't take that banlist seriously anymore. Green needs one decent tutor target for both fat and ramp.
Don't be too hasty, its not the first time blossom went up before an unban announcement.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/18240966845/dear-mr-rosewater-this-is-something-i-wanted-to-ask-a
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/71870475748/hi-maro-this-might-not-be-your-department-but-could
Green is hands down the best color in Commander, and there are still plenty of tutor targets. If you want a fat target, you still have both Terastodon and Woodfall Primus. If you want ramp, you're green, you have plenty of that already. If you NEED your fat creatures to ramp, you've built a pretty terrible deck. Green isn't hurt by this ban at all, and it was an incredibly unfun card to play against because most people were dicks, and this comes from someone who had it in about 4 decks and owned 10+ of them. If you think this is a poor ban, you were probably just using the card to make the game unfun for others and the reason for the ban in the first place.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I found the card very fun to play with. I'm on the side that thinks it needed banned but I'm still sad I won't be able to play it anymore.
Melira Pod does not care at all. It was a top tier deck before DRS, it will remain a top tier deck after DRS unless some meta shift like lots of RG Tron showing up happens. Pod can run Noble Hierarch just fine, and if it didn't have that it wouldn't even be a hit to use Avacyn's Pilgrim instead. It just might combo rather than aggro win slightly more often.
What makes you think they are made up of casual players? Considering nearly every person on the development team has a PT Top 8, that's an odd description to use for them.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
The funny thing is I said these three when talking about the Bans and Unbans on friday night with the shop owner and another player and they said I was crazy to think they would unban Bitterblossom, and Banning deathrite shaman, though they both agreed with Wild Nacatl being unbanned, never should have been banned in the first place.
Now with the Sylvan Primordial ban in EDH, it kind of sucks but I can understand the hate for the card. Yes I agree there is a lot more broken cards that interacted with Primordial (Deadeye Navigator) but in a multiplayer game, if it hit just once it was still devastating for your opponent. Oh well, now I am going to go back to blinking Phyrexian Ingester, Diluvian Primordial, Draining Whelk, Mystic Snake, Eternal Witness, etc, etc, etc.
Does anyone see where I am going with that.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Sylvan ban is just more uninformed bull**** ala Primeval Titan. Kokusho eventually came off the list and those two will as well some day.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
You've done so much testing in the last 3 hours that you know what the format is going to look like already? Bravo sir.
Zoo could help keep Pod in check as it can pressure their life total fast enough to force them into plays that slow the deck down and Bolt to kill the Melira. Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks are going to be very important in that match up. If Zoo splashed blue like it did at PT Philly, it will also have some counterspells and Bant Charm for Pods.
If a Faeries deck shows up, that will also help keep Pod in check as it offers reasonable counterspells to stop the combo half of the deck. Again, Voice is going to be important.
Pod will probably the deck to beat, but there will tools to beat it. You can also just go bigger and play Tron which has always had a reasonable match up.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Tron has much more than a reasonable matchup. As a Pod player against R/G Tron I'm thrilled if I can even make it a 1-2 loss for me.