Not semantics. Flying is a solid form of evasion - especially on a creature with an already aggresive power-to-cost ratio. For example: Chandra's Phoenix without Flying would be unplayable, but give it Flying and it's competitive.
Don't dismiss what's printed on the card just because it doesn't fit your argument.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I think the reality is that magic has power creeped a long way since juzam djinn was playable. Juzam was a 5/5 for 4 with a minor drawback, this is a 5/5 flying for 4 with a somewhat bigger but still not harsh drawback. Its not all that better than a juzam, and this is 2014 Not that long ago we were getting a 5/5 flying haste for 5 with a *huge upside* rather than drawback, and it was the same clock as this on curve. Now maybe RtR to Theros will be the fabled great depowering of homelands/masques/kamigawa #4. But I doubt it.
Of course mtg is de-powering crazy fast. Look at last season staples (TMHK, Geist, Resto Angel, Tusk, Olivia, Huntsmaster, Falk Aristocrat) and compare to what we have now. They feel like they belong to another universe to be honest.
Also compare the strongest RTR creatures to the strongest Theros creatures. Aetherling, Reckoner, Voice, BBoV and his Obzedat buddy. There's nothing in Theros close to then in terms of cheer power level.
What's really, really strong in Theros block is the devotion mechanic. Like, so ridiculously strong that everything else in the block seems a joke for constructed. And devotion is so prevalent because standard has slowed down and lost it's tempo element almost entirely, so simply stacking permanents for 8 turns is not only viable but one of the best to go strategies.
Not semantics. Flying is a solid form of evasion - especially on a creature with an already aggresive power-to-cost ratio. For example: Chandra's Phoenix without Flying would be unplayable, but give it Flying and it's competitive.
Dude, everyone in this thread and on the boards knows that he/she was being slack and in fact meant French vanilla. Try to understand that and just relax.
He/she doesn't mean to diminish the potential of flying, which is undeniably a powerful form of evasion and getting in beats. It's like the best thing since horsemanship for God's sake.
I still don't understand a good majority of the people on MTGSalvation. Multicolor heavy with lots of nonbasics? "Multicolor is too easy, manabases should be worse." Scrylands printed, making multicolor slower? "These are just guildgates, but rare. Nice cash grab, Wizards! GIVE US GOOD DUEL LANDS!!1!!11!11!!!one!1!one!"
Mythics really good? "Expensive and pushed!" Mythics anything less than really good? "Terrible card, makes me not want to ever buy cards again!"
Dude, this happens every rumour season, so I don't know why you're surprised and I don't think you even know what you're trying to achieve by pointing this out.
If you've seen this happen more than thrice, you really should know better than to seriously consider the reactions of MTG players.
As for Hero of Iroas, the reveal in the second set is nice but I was hoping that the large expansion would have had something like this (a la Auriok Steelshaper or other first-set support cards). Now Heroic sort of makes some sense to me.
My first though with this card was waste of mythic. After thinking about it further, this card could actually be really good. On its non-tributed form, can only be killed by chained to rocks, anger, detention sphere. Thus this card will be a 5/5 when opponents are trying to destroy it. I could see this as a finisher in a Rx midrange deck.
Dude, everyone in this thread and on the boards knows that he/she was being slack and in fact meant French vanilla. Try to understand that and just relax.
Are you under the impression that I'm upset in some way?
I'm just saying you can't dismiss in impact of Flying on the card by saying "oh it's just a vanilla 5/5" simply because that doesn't support your argument any more than I could honestly describe the card as "Either Hellrider with Flying and recursion or Thundermaw for 1 less mana."
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
After initially being a bit disappointed by this card I've started to settle more towards a realistic position on it. First, the card is good enough even with it's drawback that it will be played in standard and could easily be played as 3-4 of in the decks that want it.
What is the archetype that wants it though? Chandra's Pheonix seems better in the RDW super aggro deck since it's always hasty and starts hitting earlier. Stombreath Dragon seems better in the GR mid-range decks since it dodges a few pieces of removal and hits harder.
I can believe a Jund shell might like this since it can be a recurring threat, but that's a really competitive 4-drop slot. Chandra, Exava, Polukranos, and Desecration Demon all come to mind. In fact I'd be over the moon if its cute interaction with Exava brought them both a bit of play.
Overall I'm just a little bit disappointed only because Pheonix creature type is one of my favorites and the cards that have it are always "just-good-enough" and never super memorable all-stars.
Of course mtg is de-powering crazy fast. Look at last season staples (TMHK, Geist, Resto Angel, Tusk, Olivia, Huntsmaster, Falk Aristocrat) and compare to what we have now. They feel like they belong to another universe to be honest.
Also compare the strongest RTR creatures to the strongest Theros creatures. Aetherling, Reckoner, Voice, BBoV and his Obzedat buddy. There's nothing in Theros close to then in terms of cheer power level.
What's really, really strong in Theros block is the devotion mechanic. Like, so ridiculously strong that everything else in the block seems a joke for constructed. And devotion is so prevalent because standard has slowed down and lost it's tempo element almost entirely, so simply stacking permanents for 8 turns is not only viable but one of the best to go strategies.
I'm keeping at least somewhat optimistic on that front too. I think there is indeed some serious power shrivel, but I take it with a grain of salt and temper those hopes. So it might be too early to start declaring juzams back to playable again, but at least there's a plausible case for it. I wwas rooting all the way through RtR.
I think devotions playability is inversely proportional to the quality of sweepers we get I don't even remember, what are the best sweepers now? Given that devotion is pretty much "overextend: the mechanic", and there's a dearth of anything but enchantments beyond creatures to enable it, I feel the moment a quality sweeper sees standard, devotion drops **** a rock.
So its like that desecration demon thread over a year ago. Some people overvalue him horribly wrong by not understanding the mechanics, and I get all the ire when I compare him to a juzam or mass of ghouls unfavorably, but the joke in the end is that creatures taking the backswing of the pendulum means cruddy finishers like this pheonix might just see play anyway.
Still I wouldnt hold my breath when polkadotskranos makes this look like a joke, and for all the creature depowering, urza block artifacts and combos arent even remotely on the horizon. You're still forced to turn sideways, just scaled down. Who knows, this pheonix in zendikar might have cost 3 cmc
A vanilla 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days.
What you insist I should have said:
A French vanilla 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days.
What I actually think you should have said:
"A 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days." - notice how I completely left out the word "vanilla" since it was as unnecessary as it was inaccurate? Your use of the word is as correct as describing Akroma as a "vanilla 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red".
Also, the argument itself is pretty ridiculous anyway since just a 5/5 Flying for 2RR would be more than solid.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I just noticed with Domri Rade on board playing this the following turn could give the opponent a tough decision with the tribute. Since as a 5/5 Domri's -2 becomes pretty backbreaking against most other creatures.
I always love a new Phoenix but I don't like this one. The threat of the return gives the Phoenix its flavor and its power. This card removed that threat 99% of the time its best to pay the tribute for a 5/5 vs. 3/3 haste that can be played again.
For this card the tribute should have given it haste and +2. That would make a person decide between a flying creature with 5/5 haste or 3/3 that will return.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
first turn
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
I don't think the Phoenix is that great. I'm playing aggro, okay on T4 you can have a 3/3 haste flier then I will attack through and kill you. I'm playing control, okay you can have a 5/5 flier and I'll kill it with one of my many kill spells, or verdict. It's basically Polukranos with flying without the handy monstrous ability.
We'll see how it actually turns out, but 3/3 haste on T4 in an aggro deck doesn't seem like where it wants to be. Imagine playing against it with your deck rather than using it in your deck and see how your deck would react to it on T4. It's very underwhelming and not hard to deal with.
The Hero is amazing, I love his synergy with Bestow creatures, especially the new 3CMC bestow creatures. I'm excited to see what decks will use him.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. " - Desiderata by Max Ehrmann, 1927
Aura dude is cool though glad he isnt legendary so you can make multiples, and he would be too good at playing voltron in edh I think. That would be ANNOYING pretty quick.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I'm confused, you guys whine when the mythics are good and site MaRo saying that mythics arent meant to be tournament staples (Geist of Saint Traft)
And here we are with a different mythic that you are whining isnt strong enough?
I think the Flame-Wreathed Phoenix will find a good home in big red devotion. I look forward to switching out my ember swallower cards for a playset of them.
For this phoenix I would not pay tribute. They can cast it as many times as they like just like Chandra's phoenix, it's not going to win them a game. Good decks should have a way to deal with flying or win the race against it.
I'm confused, you guys whine when the mythics are good and site MaRo saying that mythics arent meant to be tournament staples (Geist of Saint Traft)
And here we are with a different mythic that you are whining isnt strong enough?
not to assume i speak for everyone, but i would think most would be whining not that it isn't strong enough, per se. rather that it isn't impressive or flashy enough for mythic status, which often does translate into power level, but not necessarily.
for instance, i feel Tromokratis is much more mythic-worthy because it is huge and has an interesting, flashy ability, one not seen on a card before. but they made it a rare. meanwhile, the phoenix, which may or may not turn out to be more competitive or playable, just doesn't seem as inspired or exciting. it could easily have been a rare, imo.
it doesn't seem any more "mythic" than any other recent phoenix, and they have all been rare. If Chandra's and Kuldotha are rare, I don't see why this one should be mythic.
It's not necessarily a power level gripe (again, imo), rather it just doesn't feel that special.
I wish Hero of Iroas got his own thread. I kind of wanted to see some discussion about one of the best cards leaked rather than have it be drowned out from the mythical merits of the Phoenix. I really like the Hero with the new Ephara's Enlightenment spell.
I'm starting to think UW Heroic Aggro is going to be real deck, especially after rotation. I've been playing GW aggro but it seems like all the Green stuff in Theros is for going over the top/Nykthos shenanigans and the Blue cards are becoming uncharacteristically aggro.
Not semantics. Flying is a solid form of evasion - especially on a creature with an already aggresive power-to-cost ratio. For example: Chandra's Phoenix without Flying would be unplayable, but give it Flying and it's competitive.
Don't dismiss what's printed on the card just because it doesn't fit your argument.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Of course mtg is de-powering crazy fast. Look at last season staples (TMHK, Geist, Resto Angel, Tusk, Olivia, Huntsmaster, Falk Aristocrat) and compare to what we have now. They feel like they belong to another universe to be honest.
Also compare the strongest RTR creatures to the strongest Theros creatures. Aetherling, Reckoner, Voice, BBoV and his Obzedat buddy. There's nothing in Theros close to then in terms of cheer power level.
What's really, really strong in Theros block is the devotion mechanic. Like, so ridiculously strong that everything else in the block seems a joke for constructed. And devotion is so prevalent because standard has slowed down and lost it's tempo element almost entirely, so simply stacking permanents for 8 turns is not only viable but one of the best to go strategies.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Dude, everyone in this thread and on the boards knows that he/she was being slack and in fact meant French vanilla. Try to understand that and just relax.
He/she doesn't mean to diminish the potential of flying, which is undeniably a powerful form of evasion and getting in beats. It's like the best thing since horsemanship for God's sake.
Dude, this happens every rumour season, so I don't know why you're surprised and I don't think you even know what you're trying to achieve by pointing this out.
If you've seen this happen more than thrice, you really should know better than to seriously consider the reactions of MTG players.
As for Hero of Iroas, the reveal in the second set is nice but I was hoping that the large expansion would have had something like this (a la Auriok Steelshaper or other first-set support cards). Now Heroic sort of makes some sense to me.
Are you under the impression that I'm upset in some way?
I'm just saying you can't dismiss in impact of Flying on the card by saying "oh it's just a vanilla 5/5" simply because that doesn't support your argument any more than I could honestly describe the card as "Either Hellrider with Flying and recursion or Thundermaw for 1 less mana."
Dude.
It would be clearer that you knew what the words you're using mean. That helps when you're asking people to weigh your opinion.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
What is the archetype that wants it though? Chandra's Pheonix seems better in the RDW super aggro deck since it's always hasty and starts hitting earlier. Stombreath Dragon seems better in the GR mid-range decks since it dodges a few pieces of removal and hits harder.
I can believe a Jund shell might like this since it can be a recurring threat, but that's a really competitive 4-drop slot. Chandra, Exava, Polukranos, and Desecration Demon all come to mind. In fact I'd be over the moon if its cute interaction with Exava brought them both a bit of play.
Overall I'm just a little bit disappointed only because Pheonix creature type is one of my favorites and the cards that have it are always "just-good-enough" and never super memorable all-stars.
I'm keeping at least somewhat optimistic on that front too. I think there is indeed some serious power shrivel, but I take it with a grain of salt and temper those hopes. So it might be too early to start declaring juzams back to playable again, but at least there's a plausible case for it. I wwas rooting all the way through RtR.
I think devotions playability is inversely proportional to the quality of sweepers we get I don't even remember, what are the best sweepers now? Given that devotion is pretty much "overextend: the mechanic", and there's a dearth of anything but enchantments beyond creatures to enable it, I feel the moment a quality sweeper sees standard, devotion drops **** a rock.
So its like that desecration demon thread over a year ago. Some people overvalue him horribly wrong by not understanding the mechanics, and I get all the ire when I compare him to a juzam or mass of ghouls unfavorably, but the joke in the end is that creatures taking the backswing of the pendulum means cruddy finishers like this pheonix might just see play anyway.
Still I wouldnt hold my breath when polkadotskranos makes this look like a joke, and for all the creature depowering, urza block artifacts and combos arent even remotely on the horizon. You're still forced to turn sideways, just scaled down. Who knows, this pheonix in zendikar might have cost 3 cmc
What I actually think you should have said:
"A 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days." - notice how I completely left out the word "vanilla" since it was as unnecessary as it was inaccurate? Your use of the word is as correct as describing Akroma as a "vanilla 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red".
Also, the argument itself is pretty ridiculous anyway since just a 5/5 Flying for 2RR would be more than solid.
Sure thing.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
For this card the tribute should have given it haste and +2. That would make a person decide between a flying creature with 5/5 haste or 3/3 that will return.
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
We'll see how it actually turns out, but 3/3 haste on T4 in an aggro deck doesn't seem like where it wants to be. Imagine playing against it with your deck rather than using it in your deck and see how your deck would react to it on T4. It's very underwhelming and not hard to deal with.
The Hero is amazing, I love his synergy with Bestow creatures, especially the new 3CMC bestow creatures. I'm excited to see what decks will use him.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. " - Desiderata by Max Ehrmann, 1927
"Hello, I'd like to introduce you to my right knuckle. She calls herself "The Widowmaker".
Aura dude is cool though glad he isnt legendary so you can make multiples, and he would be too good at playing voltron in edh I think. That would be ANNOYING pretty quick.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
And here we are with a different mythic that you are whining isnt strong enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Pay tribute, no trigger, boom removal.
For this phoenix I would not pay tribute. They can cast it as many times as they like just like Chandra's phoenix, it's not going to win them a game. Good decks should have a way to deal with flying or win the race against it.
Lets get Rootwater Matriarch as well for fun times well we're at it.
not to assume i speak for everyone, but i would think most would be whining not that it isn't strong enough, per se. rather that it isn't impressive or flashy enough for mythic status, which often does translate into power level, but not necessarily.
for instance, i feel Tromokratis is much more mythic-worthy because it is huge and has an interesting, flashy ability, one not seen on a card before. but they made it a rare. meanwhile, the phoenix, which may or may not turn out to be more competitive or playable, just doesn't seem as inspired or exciting. it could easily have been a rare, imo.
it doesn't seem any more "mythic" than any other recent phoenix, and they have all been rare. If Chandra's and Kuldotha are rare, I don't see why this one should be mythic.
It's not necessarily a power level gripe (again, imo), rather it just doesn't feel that special.
I'm starting to think UW Heroic Aggro is going to be real deck, especially after rotation. I've been playing GW aggro but it seems like all the Green stuff in Theros is for going over the top/Nykthos shenanigans and the Blue cards are becoming uncharacteristically aggro.
Phoenix is forgettable. Most of them tend to be.
French Vanilla creatures can - creatures that have only evergreen abilities.