If playability of a card is so dependent on environment, what basis do you have to declare a card good or bad? And, isn't this environment crafted by players and their opinions of cards e.g. players such as clan_iraq who dismiss cards because of their superficial card evaluation until other, more innovative players come along and exploit holes or changes in the environment?
There are some pretty simple baseline judgements that can be made about the power level of a card, and we all know by now what the current environment looks like. Obviously these things change over time in a healthy metagame (which we've had since scars block rotated), but we can make judgements and move on.
I was very much involved in the argument over Desecration Demon first hand. Despite the advocacy of others in the forum, clan_iraq dug himself a trench and was absolutely unwilling to even remotely accept the possibility that a 6/6 flier for 4 mana, whose drawback is becoming The Abyss, could ever become a playable card. No matter how you look at it, that is a powerful card.
Actually, at the time DD was spoiled it was in no way shape or form ready to be played in decks. Zombies was the deck that everyone was preparing for and big DD just isn't good against hordes of gravecrawlers and geralf's messengers. Saying that it could indeed become powerful later just gives credence to the idea you questioned earlier in the same post- that playability of a card is so dependent on environment.
The fact of the matter is that g/b zombies just didn't pan out at the get go and other decks turned out to be more powerful, but DD was still not well positioned against UWR midrange. Eventually r/b "zombies" ate up some share of the metagame (further suppressing DD by not only running the zombie package but also Thundermaw Hellkite), and when that deck finally fell off the radar, DD finally started seeing play in the rock.
You do realize that Devotion decks tend to run lots of cards that are only playable because of devotion sucks.
That's not the case with Desecration Demon though. Even non devotion black decks play it, such as black white from top 8 pro tour theros and the current black white midrange decks. It's played because it's a quick clock when there are no creatures to sac to it, and sacrificing creatures every turn is hard for most decks, especially with mono black's removal suite. It's also very hard for green and red decks to remove.
Quote from clan_iraq »
Black as it happens is a color with some of the high power bottom of its curve right now in almost anachronistically strong thoughtseize/pack rat
But Desecration Demon had success before mono black decks ran 4 pack rat main. Pre rotation in that monoblack splash green deck and now it is not simply riding on the coattails of that synergy, it was the finisher of choice before it, and they both still share 4 mainboard spots despite pack rat being a great wincon of its own. In pro tour theros top 8 the black white deck played 4 Desecration demon main but no pack rat, while the mono black deck ran 4 Desecration demon main and only 2 pack rat main. Same as when mono black won grand prix louisville.
Quote from clan_iraq »
He's also saying demon is a powerhouse in modern
Didn't say it was a powerhouse in modern, how pathetic that you insinuate I did. I just said that it was good enough to act as a finisher in a grand prix top 8 deck alongside tarmogoyf. A good step up from your "best evaluation" of it being roughly equal to a vanilla 5 mana 5/3, don't you think? With all of modern's card pool, he opted to play 2 desecrations mainboard in a golgari deck. It's obviously good at its job.
Also you a referring to a post from over a year ago. Evaluation of a card depends on the environment it is in.
Except he still thinks it's bad, despite being a 4 of main board in several grand prix winning decks. A sensible evaluation would be that it's bad in an format with geralf's messenger, gravecrawler, lingering souls, thragtusk, huntmaster of the fells, but that it has potential otherwise. The fact that it served as a finisher in a top 8 grand prix modern deck, where there's no shortage of efficient creatures, is a testament to that. Instead he says it struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls. Not really the evaluation of a card that has a hope to shine in any environment.
Could we keep this discussion about the card on topic rather than discussing card evaluation theory?
Desecration Demon and Mogis are pretty similar, not only are they both punisher cards, Demon proved that the cost of sacrificing a creature every turn is not easily paid in this format. It's a reminder that good punisher cards exist if the price is too hard to pay.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
And, isn't this environment crafted by players and their opinions of cards e.g. players such as clan_iraq who dismiss cards because of their superficial card evaluation until other, more innovative players come along and exploit holes or changes in the environment?
Desecration Demon and Mogis are pretty similar, not only are they both punisher cards, Demon proved that the cost of sacrificing a creature every turn is not easily paid in this format. It's a reminder that good punisher cards exist if the price is too hard to pay.
Mogis is like if desecration demon was a 2/2 unblockable, industructable and didn't get counters for oppents sacing creatures.
Why scold someone personally for using wrong logic when you admit that you've been wrong in the past, which indicates that your logic isn't always the right one as well? You seem to contradict yourself based on some kind of personal notion of superiority.
Wrong logic, and making incorrect predictions are two different things.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Mogis is like if desecration demon was a 2/2 unblockable, industructable and didn't get counters for oppents sacing creatures.
And that it triggers immediately at opponent's upkeep, instead of waiting for a full turn to swing, and that it can become a 7/5 indestructible creature against a deck with few removal. Having a reckoner with either ash zealot, bte or chandra's phoenix does happen sometimes in standard, right?
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
And that it triggers immediately at opponent's upkeep, instead of waiting for a full turn to swing, and that it can become a 7/5 indestructible creature against a deck with few removal.
I wouldn't count on either of those being relevant very often.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
You people sure know how to suck the life and fun out of a card discussion.
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I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
1. Technically he's not commenting on the quality of the card.
2. That doesn't change the fact that the first link was irrelevant.
1. Yea, if he didn't think it was still bad, he wouldn't need to add "no matter how bad it is", would he?
He thinks mono black is forced to take a bad card as a finisher because there's no other options. Can't believe I have to explain that.
2. He didn't say the card was bad only in last year's meta. When someone says it's the worse rare in RTR, without mentioning how it could be good in a meta with less tokens, that's just flat out bad evaluation. Not to mention how laughably wrong his evaluation in limited of turn 4 desecration in 3xRTR struggling to be on the same level as turn 5 mass of ghouls is, and that was last year. But we can make a thread for that in the limited forums, if you still feel like arguing for him. "Desecration Demon vs mass of ghouls in triple rtr draft".
I wouldn't count on either of those being relevant very often.
The fact that it triggers at upkeep is very important, assures you some value even if they have an answer, like detention sphere. And I already said that against decks with few removal, Mogis will get active eventually. In rdw, reckoner, bte chain, or a normal curve of t1 1 drop, t2 bte/ash zealot, t3 chandra phoenix, t4 mogis gets it done. Not to mention since he can only attack on t5, it's even easier to get the required devotion by turn 5. How exactly again is the 7/5 body irrelevant?
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
I don't see why this is a punisher card or why its even compared to DD. Among the Gods he might be even better than Xenagos, but just a bit. The mere fact that Mogis is not a built around card and is very good on its own makes it very strong. And it synergizes really well with a certain planeswalker I know.
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent! Recess is over, go back and learn sex-ed with the other 6th graders.
I can't see a deck that wants this. Aggro would rather follow up it's early damage with burn; as a finisher this lines up poorly against the current endgame configuration of control. Erobos is really just better (shuts down their life gain = VCA and then draws you cards).
I've seen Mogis discussed as a win-con for a deck like Grixis, but even then he's going to be pretty damn slow.
So it's not slotting into anything right away, BUT maybe there's an RB devotion deck in the making? Mogis does hit very hard. If RW devotion became RB, Mogis is probably better than Purphoros in that shell (albeit slightly harder to activate). RB has better "big" spells so there is room to explore that.
Overall I don't find it compelling, but ill enjoy testing it. RAWR!
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I don't think this gets it done in any current decks.
While Demon shows that a sac each turn is a hard cost to pay, Mogis's other option is significantly weaker. 2 damage each turn vs a 6/6 flier. The only time Mogis's static is better is when the opponent has a pro-black or x/7 flier (Arbor Colossus). Against control, Mogis does dodge a lot more removal, but in a RB aggro or devotion deck, there would be few creatures that would require a detention sphere anyways, so a control player could try to save them for Mogis.
His body is rarely relevant in mono-B(at least in matchups where they need him) or grixis.
If there was a RB aggro deck for him, he could see play there, but I think that for the moment RW is just much better, and in JOU RW will get Iroas
1. Yea, if he didn't think it was still bad, he wouldn't need to add "no matter how bad it is", would he?
He thinks mono black is forced to take a bad card as a finisher because there's no other options. Can't believe I have to explain that.
While it's implied that he is calling it a bad card, technically he isn't calling it a bad card in that statement. Can't believe I have to explain that.
2. He didn't say the card was bad only in last year's meta. When someone says it's the worse rare in RTR, without mentioning how it could be good in a meta with less tokens, that's just flat out bad evaluation.
It's implied that when you are evaluating a card in standard that you are evaluating in the current/projected meta not some imaginary meta that you can't predict with out having some kind of insider knowledge of the cards being printed in the next block. Can't believe I have to explain that.
The fact that it triggers at upkeep is very important, assures you some value even if they have an answer, like detention sphere. And I already said that against decks with few removal, Mogis will get active eventually. In rdw, reckoner, bte chain, or a normal curve of t1 1 drop, t2 bte/ash zealot, t3 chandra phoenix, t4 mogis gets it done. Not to mention since he can only attack on t5, it's even easier to get the required devotion by turn 5. How exactly again is the 7/5 body irrelevant?
So it's like a 2/2 unbockable indestructible desecration demon with sudo haste.
In any creature base deck if you have the board position to make him a 7/5 and your opponent can't do anything to your board position to make him not a 7/5 then you can probably win the game with out a 7/5
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
If there was a RB aggro deck for him, he could see play there, but I think that for the moment RW is just much better, and in JOU RW will get Iroas
RB can be just as good as Rw. Sorry but the Rw deck that runs 4 chain to the rocks and no other white cards is mainly for master of the waves. I will tell you master dies even better to an instant speed doomblade as soon as they tap out to play him. Also with the hasted stuff available to red black your opponent is not gonna want to have mana open for a counter or they will be dead.
Suddenly by turn 3 they are sitting at less than 10 life and nervous. Plop master, get buncha tokens, sit back and think they have won. Nope.. it eats a doomblade and you swing in. What do they do? Block, loose devotion, hope they can hold long enough to drop a 2nd master, or get thassa active. I assure you the easiest way to beat blue devotion is fast aggro. Doomblade doesnt require a Mountain and a white source. It is just as good as chained. Better in some case.
Actually doom blade sucks in the current meta (too much black ) but ultimate price will do the trick so your point is still valid. All RB currently needs is the scry land, and guess what we are getting in BNG!
The "And" wording confuses me slightly with devotion.
So, Rakdos Cakler would give this dude 2 devotion right? One red symbol one black?
And Rakdos Shred freak gives four devotion? Two red, two black?
well, this has been explained several times, even in the article that spoiled Ephara, the first minor god revealed.
hybrid mana is still one symbol of mana, one graphical disc divided in half by an oblique boundarie that shows it can be paid by either of such colors. Yet, it still has the weigh, mass, energy of ONE mana symbol.
Just trying to make a visual way to understand the rules ;D
well, this has been explained several times, even in the article that spoiled Ephara, the first minor god revealed.
hybrid mana is still one symbol of mana, one graphical disc divided in half by an oblique boundarie that shows it can be paid by either of such colors. Yet, it still has the weigh, mass, energy of ONE mana symbol.
Just trying to make a visual way to understand the rules ;D
+3 internets for you for this killer explanation. I like it, I understood the rule but I'll explain it to others this way from here on.
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Ragemonger?
There are some pretty simple baseline judgements that can be made about the power level of a card, and we all know by now what the current environment looks like. Obviously these things change over time in a healthy metagame (which we've had since scars block rotated), but we can make judgements and move on.
Actually, at the time DD was spoiled it was in no way shape or form ready to be played in decks. Zombies was the deck that everyone was preparing for and big DD just isn't good against hordes of gravecrawlers and geralf's messengers. Saying that it could indeed become powerful later just gives credence to the idea you questioned earlier in the same post- that playability of a card is so dependent on environment.
The fact of the matter is that g/b zombies just didn't pan out at the get go and other decks turned out to be more powerful, but DD was still not well positioned against UWR midrange. Eventually r/b "zombies" ate up some share of the metagame (further suppressing DD by not only running the zombie package but also Thundermaw Hellkite), and when that deck finally fell off the radar, DD finally started seeing play in the rock.
That's not the case with Desecration Demon though. Even non devotion black decks play it, such as black white from top 8 pro tour theros and the current black white midrange decks. It's played because it's a quick clock when there are no creatures to sac to it, and sacrificing creatures every turn is hard for most decks, especially with mono black's removal suite. It's also very hard for green and red decks to remove.
But Desecration Demon had success before mono black decks ran 4 pack rat main. Pre rotation in that monoblack splash green deck and now it is not simply riding on the coattails of that synergy, it was the finisher of choice before it, and they both still share 4 mainboard spots despite pack rat being a great wincon of its own. In pro tour theros top 8 the black white deck played 4 Desecration demon main but no pack rat, while the mono black deck ran 4 Desecration demon main and only 2 pack rat main. Same as when mono black won grand prix louisville.
Didn't say it was a powerhouse in modern, how pathetic that you insinuate I did. I just said that it was good enough to act as a finisher in a grand prix top 8 deck alongside tarmogoyf. A good step up from your "best evaluation" of it being roughly equal to a vanilla 5 mana 5/3, don't you think? With all of modern's card pool, he opted to play 2 desecrations mainboard in a golgari deck. It's obviously good at its job.
Except he still thinks it's bad, despite being a 4 of main board in several grand prix winning decks. A sensible evaluation would be that it's bad in an format with geralf's messenger, gravecrawler, lingering souls, thragtusk, huntmaster of the fells, but that it has potential otherwise. The fact that it served as a finisher in a top 8 grand prix modern deck, where there's no shortage of efficient creatures, is a testament to that. Instead he says it struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls. Not really the evaluation of a card that has a hope to shine in any environment.
Desecration Demon and Mogis are pretty similar, not only are they both punisher cards, Demon proved that the cost of sacrificing a creature every turn is not easily paid in this format. It's a reminder that good punisher cards exist if the price is too hard to pay.
Minotaur tribal for the win!!!
.
How shocking.
WUR Enduring Ideal RUW
GGG Stompy Crux GGG
-- Elder Dragon Highlander --
UBU
Grimgrin, Zombie HordeUBURWR
Jor Kadeen TronRWRBRU Sedris Beatdown URB
UUU Llawan, Empress of "No" UUU
WBW Vish Kal Tron WBW
GRG Thromok Token GRG
RRR Zo-Zu, Hater of Everything RRR
The current envioment, the cards ability to be good in various enviorments
I think you just answered you own question.
A link to him saying it's bad now when it's doing well would be relevant, a link to him saying it's bad when it was bas isn't.
Mogis is like if desecration demon was a 2/2 unblockable, industructable and didn't get counters for oppents sacing creatures.
Wrong logic, and making incorrect predictions are two different things.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Here you go. Right in this topic.
And that it triggers immediately at opponent's upkeep, instead of waiting for a full turn to swing, and that it can become a 7/5 indestructible creature against a deck with few removal. Having a reckoner with either ash zealot, bte or chandra's phoenix does happen sometimes in standard, right?
1. Technically he's not commenting on the quality of the card.
2. That doesn't change the fact that the first link was irrelevant.
I wouldn't count on either of those being relevant very often.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
2 damage a turn is an extra turn's worth of ping - in a sense, this could be thought of as poison on a stick via enchantment.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1988614295/worlds-finest-mtg-pewter-life-spinner-is-about-to?ref=category
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=16581
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH_UXXKRzlM
1. Yea, if he didn't think it was still bad, he wouldn't need to add "no matter how bad it is", would he?
He thinks mono black is forced to take a bad card as a finisher because there's no other options. Can't believe I have to explain that.
2. He didn't say the card was bad only in last year's meta. When someone says it's the worse rare in RTR, without mentioning how it could be good in a meta with less tokens, that's just flat out bad evaluation. Not to mention how laughably wrong his evaluation in limited of turn 4 desecration in 3xRTR struggling to be on the same level as turn 5 mass of ghouls is, and that was last year. But we can make a thread for that in the limited forums, if you still feel like arguing for him. "Desecration Demon vs mass of ghouls in triple rtr draft".
The fact that it triggers at upkeep is very important, assures you some value even if they have an answer, like detention sphere. And I already said that against decks with few removal, Mogis will get active eventually. In rdw, reckoner, bte chain, or a normal curve of t1 1 drop, t2 bte/ash zealot, t3 chandra phoenix, t4 mogis gets it done. Not to mention since he can only attack on t5, it's even easier to get the required devotion by turn 5. How exactly again is the 7/5 body irrelevant?
I've seen Mogis discussed as a win-con for a deck like Grixis, but even then he's going to be pretty damn slow.
So it's not slotting into anything right away, BUT maybe there's an RB devotion deck in the making? Mogis does hit very hard. If RW devotion became RB, Mogis is probably better than Purphoros in that shell (albeit slightly harder to activate). RB has better "big" spells so there is room to explore that.
Overall I don't find it compelling, but ill enjoy testing it. RAWR!
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While Demon shows that a sac each turn is a hard cost to pay, Mogis's other option is significantly weaker. 2 damage each turn vs a 6/6 flier. The only time Mogis's static is better is when the opponent has a pro-black or x/7 flier (Arbor Colossus). Against control, Mogis does dodge a lot more removal, but in a RB aggro or devotion deck, there would be few creatures that would require a detention sphere anyways, so a control player could try to save them for Mogis.
His body is rarely relevant in mono-B(at least in matchups where they need him) or grixis.
If there was a RB aggro deck for him, he could see play there, but I think that for the moment RW is just much better, and in JOU RW will get Iroas
Read it.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
While it's implied that he is calling it a bad card, technically he isn't calling it a bad card in that statement. Can't believe I have to explain that.
It's implied that when you are evaluating a card in standard that you are evaluating in the current/projected meta not some imaginary meta that you can't predict with out having some kind of insider knowledge of the cards being printed in the next block. Can't believe I have to explain that.
So it's like a 2/2 unbockable indestructible desecration demon with sudo haste.
In any creature base deck if you have the board position to make him a 7/5 and your opponent can't do anything to your board position to make him not a 7/5 then you can probably win the game with out a 7/5
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Slaughter games says hi to your d-sphere... Scoop?:nod::nod:
BR Devo is gonna be nuts soon.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
RB can be just as good as Rw. Sorry but the Rw deck that runs 4 chain to the rocks and no other white cards is mainly for master of the waves. I will tell you master dies even better to an instant speed doomblade as soon as they tap out to play him. Also with the hasted stuff available to red black your opponent is not gonna want to have mana open for a counter or they will be dead.
T1 Cackler 2/2
T2 Spike Jester/Shred Freak/Zealot swing 5/4/4
T3 Spike Jester/Shred Freak/Zealot swing 8/6/6
Suddenly by turn 3 they are sitting at less than 10 life and nervous. Plop master, get buncha tokens, sit back and think they have won. Nope.. it eats a doomblade and you swing in. What do they do? Block, loose devotion, hope they can hold long enough to drop a 2nd master, or get thassa active. I assure you the easiest way to beat blue devotion is fast aggro. Doomblade doesnt require a Mountain and a white source. It is just as good as chained. Better in some case.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
So, Rakdos Cakler would give this dude 2 devotion right? One red symbol one black?
And Rakdos Shred freak gives four devotion? Two red, two black?
well, this has been explained several times, even in the article that spoiled Ephara, the first minor god revealed.
hybrid mana is still one symbol of mana, one graphical disc divided in half by an oblique boundarie that shows it can be paid by either of such colors. Yet, it still has the weigh, mass, energy of ONE mana symbol.
Just trying to make a visual way to understand the rules ;D
+3 internets for you for this killer explanation. I like it, I understood the rule but I'll explain it to others this way from here on.