The problem with mill isn't that it is bad, it is that there simply isn't usually enough support for the strategy to be viable at the highest levels. Just because people can't fathom the possibility of mill being an *actual* strategy doesn't mean that it can't.
Phenax is going to make waves in limited. Two turns after this guy lands the opponent should be out of cards.
And therein lies the problem with making big splashy mill cards. It is mathematically impossible to make a mill card that is good enough for standard but not completely unbeatable in limited.
Turn 2: Murmuring Phantasm/Doorkeeper.
Turn 3: Wall of Frost.
Turn 4: Wall of Frost.
Turn 5: Phenax, mill half your deck.
Turn 6: Yay, I win!
(That's without even trying to abuse the card. I have some nasty, mean combos cooked up already)
By Jove, you're onto something. I must run this thing. It'd have to have some counterspells and card draw, but I think this could really work.
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EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Hmmm...Mebbe Prophet of Kruphix needs to join Phenax's team? Tap to mill during mine, tap to mill during yours...Untap for inspired during mine...untap for inspired during yours...
Phenax's mill ability isn't exactly a shocker since that's WoTC's stance for UB for quite sometime. But why in the blue hell must every god involve creatures to be effective?
Please keep hating on Phenax. That just makes it cheaper for me to make stupid brews with him. I love everything about him, especially that he can abuse his own ability when he's a creature. One of the few gods that can.
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Currently running:
Standard GWUBant EnchantmentsUWG BR Dos Rakis RB UW Mill WU
The people I play with aren't brain dead so sadly bad things like that don't work. Moreso, boring and uncreative bad things are worse.
How much would it have to mill and how fast for you to not hate it by simple virtue of it being mill?
If it cost 4 would it be playable for you?
What if the devotion trigger was less?
Mill SHOULD be a viable strategy, and it really has not been in a long time.
People screamed about how infect was never going to be a top level strategy too, and with what mirridon gave us we eventually had some quality infect decks placing in legacy events. Mill that does not win literally on the spot like grindstone should have a shot, and until it does WOTC will continue to push it. Same with punisher mechanics as you can see by this set, though with punisher we do have Vexing devil being a very good and tourney playable card. So it can be done.
Whelming Wave is flavorful, but very, VERY specialized...
It's a card that basically says "Bounce Everything". You know you don't need to play with any Krakens to use it, right?
How many times has the person across from you in any Standard event summoned an Octopus? It's not like linear tribal (although you could use it in a similar way if you want).
It's more like the bounce-everything version of Rend Flesh, which is honestly how I want to see them use creature types ... rather than more Goblin Lords, and Minotaur Lords, and Cat Lords ...
And therein lies the problem with making big splashy mill cards. It is mathematically impossible to make a mill card that is good enough for standard but not completely unbeatable in limited.
It likely its going to get a ban in limited due to the 40 nature of the format. I mean if its in your first pack you are going to force mill.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
How much would it have to mill and how fast for you to not hate it by simple virtue of it being mill?
If it cost 4 would it be playable for you?
What if the devotion trigger was less?
Mill SHOULD be a viable strategy, and it really has not been in a long time.
People screamed about how infect was never going to be a top level strategy too, and with what mirridon gave us we eventually had some quality infect decks placing in legacy events. Mill that does not win literally on the spot like grindstone should have a shot, and until it does WOTC will continue to push it. Same with punisher mechanics as you can see by this set, though with punisher we do have Vexing devil being a very good and tourney playable card. So it can be done.
Pushing mill means not tying it to creatures because reasons. It also requires it to not suck.
Hm. Hopefully this disinterest in Phenax is widespread. Means I'll be able to get one for my Mimeoplasm self-mill/dredge deck cheaper.
Am I reading Phenax wrong, or does it grant all my other creatures that mill ability while it's an enchantment?
You don't need to worry. Seriously, you don't even need luck. His price will be at its highest immediately at launch as collectors scramble to grab a copy to complete their collection of gods, but then he's going straight to the bargain bin like virtually every other U/B mill spell that's wasted a rare/mythic slot over the years.
Now that the red fog of rage has faded from my eyes, I've gone back to look at the other stuff.
At the very least, Whelming Wave just turned my casual FNM 20boardwipe.dec into 24boardwipe.deck
Merriam-Webster lists the plural form of 'octopus' as either 'octopuses' or 'octopi.' I don't have access to the OED here at home, but I can check it out on campus tomorrow.
Octopus is Greek, so 'octopodes' is actually more technically correct. You should learn your etymology a little better.
What the heck are you talking about? I was making a joke. If you want to get all English major on me you should learn that any foreign word that enters the English language is inflected as AN ENGLISH word. So really its origins are irrelevant.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Oh my god at that Whelming Wave. My dreams of having a Monster Control EDH deck is beginning to look pretty good. Stormtide Leviathan, Shipbreaker Kraken, Sealock Monster Tromokratis with Whelming Wave? Throw in Archaeomancer and things are starting to get pretty interesting.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Xenagos is goddamn Fires of Yavimaya and you think Phenax is the best of the minor gods so far? He's not even the best of the lot in casual.
The one drop seems to have potential...the problem is heroic enablers are crap.
Hey, at least MUD got Evacuation, though.
Xenagos is not Fires of Yavimaya. He's damn strong, certainly, but he only gives the haste to one creature, comes at an awkward point in the curve for the colors and gives the bonus to a single creature. He'll likely see play, but I doubt he'll prove to be as amazing as hyped.
Second, I think you are underevaluating Phenax by a fair lot. I'm disappointed that UB isn't going any deeper than mill, but not disappointed in the least at how strong he is.
His devotion is actually one of the easier to turn on, and if he is on he is one hell of a clock. Even if not, he could very quickly end the game. Consider a good curve out, and having Desecration Demon on board with Phenax turned on through other means. That's milling 13 every turn, at instant speed. Meaning you could respond to the Demon's trigger by milling while leaving Phenax himself open to block, and still using Phenax to mill himself (It would be far worse if it said "other", it doesn't).
Considering you get him out on curve, the opponent will generally have 47 cards in their library. Milling 13 a turn with Demon out means a four turn clock. Much shorter if you have more creatures.
It's a damn strong ability, that makes is incredibly difficult to respond to. Even removing a creature doesn't make your life easier, as they can respond simply. Against U/W or Esper, if you have a bunch pack Rats you can respond to their Verdict by milling for a ton.
Now, that said, he's limited in scope. But the interesting thing is that you don't even need to put him in a dedicated mill deck for him to both be exceedingly potent at what he does; he can play fairly well into your current strategy (Being a large creature/blocker) while also giving you another "out" to win. I'll be keeping an eye on him. He has some major potential in some already existent archetypes.
Onto other things:
Whelming Wave is an amazing card. It's a little silly, as none of those creature types are particularly common at all, nor even relevant as far as I know, but it has potential to wreck some strategies. It's a solid answer for G/R monsters and Mono-G devotion, where you will easily slow them down for 2 or more turns. Decent against certain Aggro builds, particularly Selesnya (Returning Tokens never felt so good). U/W likely won't want it due to verdict, but I think it'll find a home somewhere.
Hero of Leina Tower: Phenomenal 1-drop. Actually gives a better use for cards like Alpha Authority in a Heroics deck. Sort of works like Kicker. I'm going to say that this is probably one of the cards that Heroic needed in order to be viable in Standard.
You don't need to worry. Seriously, you don't even need luck. His price will be at its highest immediately at launch as collectors scramble to grab a copy to complete their collection of gods, but then he's going straight to the bargain bin like virtually every other U/B mill spell that's wasted a rare/mythic slot over the years.
Also, yes, Wizards uses the plural "octopuses."
And therein lies the problem with making big splashy mill cards. It is mathematically impossible to make a mill card that is good enough for standard but not completely unbeatable in limited.
Doorkeeper
Murmuring Phantasm
Hover Barrier
Wall of Frost
and also probably...
Returned Phalanx
... and then Phenax himself. But then again, I'll just build a UB Defender Wall Deck.
By Jove, you're onto something. I must run this thing. It'd have to have some counterspells and card draw, but I think this could really work.
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Evactuation is an instant. Whelming Wave is a sorcery.
Because Mono-U Devotion just loves to return all of its devotion enablers to its hand.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Standard
GWUBant EnchantmentsUWG
BR Dos Rakis RB
UW Mill WU
Legacy
RGoblinsR
How much would it have to mill and how fast for you to not hate it by simple virtue of it being mill?
If it cost 4 would it be playable for you?
What if the devotion trigger was less?
Mill SHOULD be a viable strategy, and it really has not been in a long time.
People screamed about how infect was never going to be a top level strategy too, and with what mirridon gave us we eventually had some quality infect decks placing in legacy events. Mill that does not win literally on the spot like grindstone should have a shot, and until it does WOTC will continue to push it. Same with punisher mechanics as you can see by this set, though with punisher we do have Vexing devil being a very good and tourney playable card. So it can be done.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I will gladly take any phenaxes off your hands man...
Entirely
It's a card that basically says "Bounce Everything". You know you don't need to play with any Krakens to use it, right?
How many times has the person across from you in any Standard event summoned an Octopus? It's not like linear tribal (although you could use it in a similar way if you want).
It's more like the bounce-everything version of Rend Flesh, which is honestly how I want to see them use creature types ... rather than more Goblin Lords, and Minotaur Lords, and Cat Lords ...
It likely its going to get a ban in limited due to the 40 nature of the format. I mean if its in your first pack you are going to force mill.
You people don't see it????
Inspiration activator.
That's why he costs 5
Pushing mill means not tying it to creatures because reasons. It also requires it to not suck.
I like mill. I hate lazy cards.
With breaking, wight of precinct 6, and a few other mills and counters could be a tier two deck
You don't need to worry. Seriously, you don't even need luck. His price will be at its highest immediately at launch as collectors scramble to grab a copy to complete their collection of gods, but then he's going straight to the bargain bin like virtually every other U/B mill spell that's wasted a rare/mythic slot over the years.
Now that the red fog of rage has faded from my eyes, I've gone back to look at the other stuff.
At the very least, Whelming Wave just turned my casual FNM 20boardwipe.dec into 24boardwipe.deck
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Watery Grave
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Azorius Keyrune
4 Dimir Keyrune
TWENTY-FOUR BOARDWIPES
4 Drown in Sorrow
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Curse of the Swine
4 Whelming Wave
4 Merciless Eviction
4 Cyclonic Rift
2 Aetherling
Things are gonna be silly. I hope my opponents didn't plan to use creatures
What the heck are you talking about? I was making a joke. If you want to get all English major on me you should learn that any foreign word that enters the English language is inflected as AN ENGLISH word. So really its origins are irrelevant.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
especially if the inevitable Inspired miller is actually playable.
I'm still annoyed they went this route,
but I suppose the card has its uses.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
What is a god without followers?
Let's make a wall deck with Phenax? I'm thinking 4x Wall of Denials. Tap and mill for 8? With shroud? Yes please.
Xenagos is not Fires of Yavimaya. He's damn strong, certainly, but he only gives the haste to one creature, comes at an awkward point in the curve for the colors and gives the bonus to a single creature. He'll likely see play, but I doubt he'll prove to be as amazing as hyped.
Second, I think you are underevaluating Phenax by a fair lot. I'm disappointed that UB isn't going any deeper than mill, but not disappointed in the least at how strong he is.
His devotion is actually one of the easier to turn on, and if he is on he is one hell of a clock. Even if not, he could very quickly end the game. Consider a good curve out, and having Desecration Demon on board with Phenax turned on through other means. That's milling 13 every turn, at instant speed. Meaning you could respond to the Demon's trigger by milling while leaving Phenax himself open to block, and still using Phenax to mill himself (It would be far worse if it said "other", it doesn't).
Considering you get him out on curve, the opponent will generally have 47 cards in their library. Milling 13 a turn with Demon out means a four turn clock. Much shorter if you have more creatures.
It's a damn strong ability, that makes is incredibly difficult to respond to. Even removing a creature doesn't make your life easier, as they can respond simply. Against U/W or Esper, if you have a bunch pack Rats you can respond to their Verdict by milling for a ton.
Now, that said, he's limited in scope. But the interesting thing is that you don't even need to put him in a dedicated mill deck for him to both be exceedingly potent at what he does; he can play fairly well into your current strategy (Being a large creature/blocker) while also giving you another "out" to win. I'll be keeping an eye on him. He has some major potential in some already existent archetypes.
Onto other things:
Whelming Wave is an amazing card. It's a little silly, as none of those creature types are particularly common at all, nor even relevant as far as I know, but it has potential to wreck some strategies. It's a solid answer for G/R monsters and Mono-G devotion, where you will easily slow them down for 2 or more turns. Decent against certain Aggro builds, particularly Selesnya (Returning Tokens never felt so good). U/W likely won't want it due to verdict, but I think it'll find a home somewhere.
Hero of Leina Tower: Phenomenal 1-drop. Actually gives a better use for cards like Alpha Authority in a Heroics deck. Sort of works like Kicker. I'm going to say that this is probably one of the cards that Heroic needed in order to be viable in Standard.
As someone who plays mill, I wish this was true. Glimpse the Unthinkable should not twice as much as Master of Waves does!
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.