Rules question: Say you have a Judge's Familiar in play, and your opponent casts an instant or sorcery, leaving up one untapped land. If you cast Thassa's Rebuff on their spell, and then sac the Familiar, how much mana would they have to pay to resolve their spell? Can you sac the Familiar after they pay the mana for Rebuff, but before the spell resolves?
Your opponent has to pay equal to devotion to blue or its countered as thassa's rebuff is resolving. so they can pay one and then you can sac the familiar while the instant or sorcery is still on the stack and be able to counter it.
Soooo would a counter war in the mirror match now be something like this?
P1: "counter, I'm so devoted to blue"
P2: "counter your counter, I'm more devoted to blue"
P1: "nuh uh!"
*nerd slap fight*
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I had a wordy signature here once.
URGRiku, Sorcerer SupremeGRU Who needs permanents anyways? WUBRGDeckbuilder's ToolboxGRBUW Warning:Contents include 34 decks and growing
Soooo would a counter war in the mirror match now be something like this?
P1: "counter, I'm so devoted to blue"
P2: "counter your counter, I'm more devoted to blue"
P1: "nuh uh!"
*nerd slap fight*
That's always how i imagine it anyway. With or without devotion
Rules question: Say you have a Judge's Familiar in play, and your opponent casts an instant or sorcery, leaving up one untapped land. If you cast Thassa's Rebuff on their spell, and then sac the Familiar, how much mana would they have to pay to resolve their spell? Can you sac the Familiar after they pay the mana for Rebuff, but before the spell resolves?
If you sacrifice Judge's Familiar before resolve, they do not have to pay a thing for Thassa's Rebuff unless you have more blue mana symbols lying around
I can hope. Modern could really use Counterspell. All that they have to do is reprint it in a meta with underpowered control cards. Also, I thought that the reason why Mana Leak wasn't reprinted was because of Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets.
No, it wasn't reprinted because they openly voiced that it is too powerful of a card to print in Standard. It's not like it wasn't total dominant before those two cards were legal, either. Cawblade was far worse for the game than Delver, and one of the many reasons it was good was because it access to Mana Leak.
Getting Counterspell legal in Modern is an excellent idea. But having to make it legal in Standard raises the difficulty somewhat. Shaping a meta wherein it would be good without being great would be no small task. Perhaps the easiest way to do this would be craft the meta in such a way that there are literally no other reasonable options as Counterspells, so you choose between Counterspell and Cancel (and maybe Negate/Essence Scatter, since they are nice role players) at which point heavy Blue has access to a powerful counter, but there's not a surplus of them as to warp the format. It would also need to be crafted in a manner that prevents powerful Blue tempo decks from being dominant. Moving more of Blue's action into the midgame to solidify it as a midrange color for a season or two would allow the deck to lean on Counterspell as its primary answer, but not be either too aggressive or too controlling as to pigeon hole the format one way or the other.
A lot of work to get one card reprinted, mind you. Until then, I am certain Modern will get by with Mana Leak and, more importantly, Remand.
Edit: @SpacemanSpiff: While that does not work, you can do the equivalent by casting this, letting them pay the mana, and then sacrifice the Owl afterwards. You don't cede priority unless you choose to, so interaction works, but not in the manner you describe.
Way worse than Mana Leak in the first few turns of the game, but usually better in the late game. That's a good balance, because early-game counters are what cause issues in Standard, but this will still usually counter bombs.
OMG! It's like Mana Leak guys!.....except that whole needing at least 3 U on the battlefield by turn two for it to function similarly on turn 2 (or even turn 3).
you don't need it to be a full-on Mana Leak on turn two. a 2-mana Force Spike should be sufficient for the first few turns. no Standard legal decks are going to have 4-5 mana on turn two, so Mana Leak would be overkill. Even with a single devotion on board, this will work effectively for the first few turns (and if you don't have at least a single point of devotion in your opening hand in MUD you should've taken a mulligan).
I'm not saying this is close to Mana Leak in power level, but it's gonna be good enough (to situationally better in some instances) for the deck that wants to play it. So no need for the snark.
It's the same reason Mana Leak is too good to print. It's almost always a Counterspell (and it's easier to cast), and because of its relative effectiveness for its cost, it pushes far too many cards/archetypes/options out of the format. Lightning Bolt does the same thing, but on a much smaller scale: it definitely lowers the power of creatures that have 3 toughness or less at any mana cost higher than 2 or 3 (at most 3). While that can be a solid number of caerds, it is a much, much smaller subset compared to the ones that Mana Leak invalidates. In order for a spell to be worth casting when you have an option like Mana Leak, it either needs to be dirt cheap already, dirt cheap and powerful (like Stoneforge Mystic), moderately costed and stupidly powerful (like jace, TMS) or expensive and stupidly powerful (like Primeval Titan and friends).
A card's power, its 'brokenness', can often be measure by the number of other cards it straight up invalidates or makes utterly undesirable to play/cast. Mana Leak (and cheap, broad countermagic in general) are 'broken' in the sense that they make far too many otherwise playable cards unplayable. It should not ever see reprint.
by that logic, then removal spells in general must invalid creatures completely. creatures are unplayable because there is a chance they might die. that's ridiculous. not only can you play around stuff like Mana Leak, you can bait out counterspells/removal, and/or try to attrition or out-CA your opponent. it's pretty likely they aren't playing 36 copies of Mana Leak, so in no way does it make things unplayable. i can't imagine what you must think or would think about Legacy or Vintage, where real counterspells occupy a huge chunk of the field. Legacy has far better options than Mana Leak, yet it is the most diverse format of all.
my thoughts on the card (which can probably be taken with a grain of salt, since i don't play Standard, or really even Modern anymore):
seems more similar to Spell Rupture than Mana Leak due to deck building requirements/constraints, and it doesn't appear that spell is very popular. granted, this is often marginally better and has the potential to be much more powerful in the right circumstance, but by the point in the game that you have 5+ devotion, a simple force spike is likely sufficient. if your devotion is that high, a 1-2 drop that they can pay 7-8 mana for probably isn't going to get them back in the game. but it does work where it matters, so it will likely see play in some number in the one or two decks that will be able to utilize it. Instinct would be to replace more situational counters with this, but personally i would want some more solid back-up in addition, because this is pretty much a blank after a board wipe/removal spree.
as far as Modern goes, Merfolk (which isn't even really that popular of a deck atm) already has access to Spell Syphon and doesn't play it. This is marginally better in most cases, so i would be surprised to see it ...make any waves there. /sunglasses
This card is amazing for MUD! It doesn't need "early game consistency", as mud loves to drop creatures on the curve. This is the protection they really needed for master of waves (main-deckable).
I stared at this post for a good full minute pondering just why the hell would Workshop decks play this card.
Then I was like "oh".
It will see play in Standard, but not anywhere else. Between this and the 1G devotion Hurricane, I think there is a cycle of those in BNG.
Where this card starts to shine is on turn 3 when you miss your 3 drop, turn 4 when you don't have the master, or turn 5 when you want to play thassa but still be able to do something, or turn 6 where you play the master and want protection...
It is not a turn 1/2 card, nor would mono blue ever keep mana up to play a counterspell EVER on turn 1,2, or 3 most likely...and past those turns this is better than mana leak and allows for more plays than dissolve and is more consistent than essence scatter/negate/dispel...
I'm not saying that this card will absolutely change the face of mono blue, but that you might start seeing counterspells mainboard and that this might replace negate/dissolve/essence scatter in the side...
If you're on the play and played a 1 drop, this becomes a force spike (which is pretty good on turn 2)
Then if you play a 2 drop you basically have a mana leak on turn 3.
The question is, what is mono blue afraid of on turns 2-5 that it's so scared of it wouldn't just rather curve out with Thassa/NS and Master of Waves/Bident/Jace?
- Grey Merchant
- Other Master of Waves
- Fanatic of Mogis
- ?????
I guess at some points it might be a way to counter removal for master of waves or to keep Thassa as a creature?
Drown in sorrow seems like something mono blue doesn't want to let resolve.
Mono blue would be unstoppable with counter spell. This is not the right environment for it at all
While I agree with you completely, I also have to kinda say printing it now would actually make more sense than printing this "obviously-made-for-blue-devotion counterspell. At least then non-Thassa control decks would have an option that is just as powerful.
Again, not saying that I think CS should be printed....
Without ramp, Evasive Action can force them to pay at most 5 by turn 5, or lower costs in earlier turns. If you don't have 5 or more devotion to blue by turn 5, you're playing monoblue devotion decks very wrong.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I know, you'd need an uncouterable removal spell or board wipe or something.
Such sarcasm...
Veeery good card in the current standard, maybe even better than mana leak in many situation in MonoU deck.
But at the same time such narrow that not every deck could abuse/splash it and absolutely not broken in eternal formats.
LOVE this design!
- L
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I know, you'd need an uncouterable removal spell or board wipe or something.
Supreme Verdict will always be the card that kills Mono U, especially if more than one is ever played in a game, just as an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift kills Mono B (although it's very difficult to cast an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift in time to stop Mono B unless you're running Mono U and have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx out). Every deck has answers, no matter how good it is. It's just a matter of whether the opponent has that answer.
Speaking of which, Wizards had better print some kind of uncounterable board wipe in BNG or JOU before rotation, or else things could get ugly.
Reading the comments for this thread made me laugh out loud.
It's almost hilarious to see how much everyone despises blue. Claim that you don't, but this is an uncommon Counterspell that is nowhere near as good as even mana leak, but everyone was freaking out! You guys are ridiculous.
Jokes and horrific screams aside; I like this card. Most decks seem to be midrange at the moment, and I think thy a blue Midrange deck could really itemize this card. Between this and Dissolve, Blue had two solid counters to back up its defenses. I think this card is perfectly fine. It's a Counterspell that's good in the right deck.
Your opponent has to pay equal to devotion to blue or its countered as thassa's rebuff is resolving. so they can pay one and then you can sac the familiar while the instant or sorcery is still on the stack and be able to counter it.
P1: "counter, I'm so devoted to blue"
P2: "counter your counter, I'm more devoted to blue"
P1: "nuh uh!"
*nerd slap fight*
URGRiku, Sorcerer SupremeGRU
Who needs permanents anyways?
WUBRGDeckbuilder's ToolboxGRBUW
Warning:Contents include 34 decks and growing
That's always how i imagine it anyway. With or without devotion
If you sacrifice Judge's Familiar before resolve, they do not have to pay a thing for Thassa's Rebuff unless you have more blue mana symbols lying around
No, it wasn't reprinted because they openly voiced that it is too powerful of a card to print in Standard. It's not like it wasn't total dominant before those two cards were legal, either. Cawblade was far worse for the game than Delver, and one of the many reasons it was good was because it access to Mana Leak.
Getting Counterspell legal in Modern is an excellent idea. But having to make it legal in Standard raises the difficulty somewhat. Shaping a meta wherein it would be good without being great would be no small task. Perhaps the easiest way to do this would be craft the meta in such a way that there are literally no other reasonable options as Counterspells, so you choose between Counterspell and Cancel (and maybe Negate/Essence Scatter, since they are nice role players) at which point heavy Blue has access to a powerful counter, but there's not a surplus of them as to warp the format. It would also need to be crafted in a manner that prevents powerful Blue tempo decks from being dominant. Moving more of Blue's action into the midgame to solidify it as a midrange color for a season or two would allow the deck to lean on Counterspell as its primary answer, but not be either too aggressive or too controlling as to pigeon hole the format one way or the other.
A lot of work to get one card reprinted, mind you. Until then, I am certain Modern will get by with Mana Leak and, more importantly, Remand.
Edit: @SpacemanSpiff: While that does not work, you can do the equivalent by casting this, letting them pay the mana, and then sacrifice the Owl afterwards. You don't cede priority unless you choose to, so interaction works, but not in the manner you describe.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but there are so many good uncommons in this set!
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
you don't need it to be a full-on Mana Leak on turn two. a 2-mana Force Spike should be sufficient for the first few turns. no Standard legal decks are going to have 4-5 mana on turn two, so Mana Leak would be overkill. Even with a single devotion on board, this will work effectively for the first few turns (and if you don't have at least a single point of devotion in your opening hand in MUD you should've taken a mulligan).
I'm not saying this is close to Mana Leak in power level, but it's gonna be good enough (to situationally better in some instances) for the deck that wants to play it. So no need for the snark.
by that logic, then removal spells in general must invalid creatures completely. creatures are unplayable because there is a chance they might die. that's ridiculous. not only can you play around stuff like Mana Leak, you can bait out counterspells/removal, and/or try to attrition or out-CA your opponent. it's pretty likely they aren't playing 36 copies of Mana Leak, so in no way does it make things unplayable. i can't imagine what you must think or would think about Legacy or Vintage, where real counterspells occupy a huge chunk of the field. Legacy has far better options than Mana Leak, yet it is the most diverse format of all.
my thoughts on the card (which can probably be taken with a grain of salt, since i don't play Standard, or really even Modern anymore):
seems more similar to Spell Rupture than Mana Leak due to deck building requirements/constraints, and it doesn't appear that spell is very popular. granted, this is often marginally better and has the potential to be much more powerful in the right circumstance, but by the point in the game that you have 5+ devotion, a simple force spike is likely sufficient. if your devotion is that high, a 1-2 drop that they can pay 7-8 mana for probably isn't going to get them back in the game. but it does work where it matters, so it will likely see play in some number in the one or two decks that will be able to utilize it. Instinct would be to replace more situational counters with this, but personally i would want some more solid back-up in addition, because this is pretty much a blank after a board wipe/removal spree.
as far as Modern goes, Merfolk (which isn't even really that popular of a deck atm) already has access to Spell Syphon and doesn't play it. This is marginally better in most cases, so i would be surprised to see it ...make any waves there. /sunglasses
I stared at this post for a good full minute pondering just why the hell would Workshop decks play this card.
Then I was like "oh".
It will see play in Standard, but not anywhere else. Between this and the 1G devotion Hurricane, I think there is a cycle of those in BNG.
It is not a turn 1/2 card, nor would mono blue ever keep mana up to play a counterspell EVER on turn 1,2, or 3 most likely...and past those turns this is better than mana leak and allows for more plays than dissolve and is more consistent than essence scatter/negate/dispel...
I'm not saying that this card will absolutely change the face of mono blue, but that you might start seeing counterspells mainboard and that this might replace negate/dissolve/essence scatter in the side...
Drown in sorrow seems like something mono blue doesn't want to let resolve.
Try again...
Dega midrange 1-0
While I agree with you completely, I also have to kinda say printing it now would actually make more sense than printing this "obviously-made-for-blue-devotion counterspell. At least then non-Thassa control decks would have an option that is just as powerful.
Again, not saying that I think CS should be printed....
Without ramp, Evasive Action can force them to pay at most 5 by turn 5, or lower costs in earlier turns. If you don't have 5 or more devotion to blue by turn 5, you're playing monoblue devotion decks very wrong.
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I know, you'd need an uncouterable removal spell or board wipe or something.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Such sarcasm...
Veeery good card in the current standard, maybe even better than mana leak in many situation in MonoU deck.
But at the same time such narrow that not every deck could abuse/splash it and absolutely not broken in eternal formats.
LOVE this design!
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Supreme Verdict will always be the card that kills Mono U, especially if more than one is ever played in a game, just as an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift kills Mono B (although it's very difficult to cast an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift in time to stop Mono B unless you're running Mono U and have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx out). Every deck has answers, no matter how good it is. It's just a matter of whether the opponent has that answer.
Speaking of which, Wizards had better print some kind of uncounterable board wipe in BNG or JOU before rotation, or else things could get ugly.
It's almost hilarious to see how much everyone despises blue. Claim that you don't, but this is an uncommon Counterspell that is nowhere near as good as even mana leak, but everyone was freaking out! You guys are ridiculous.
Jokes and horrific screams aside; I like this card. Most decks seem to be midrange at the moment, and I think thy a blue Midrange deck could really itemize this card. Between this and Dissolve, Blue had two solid counters to back up its defenses. I think this card is perfectly fine. It's a Counterspell that's good in the right deck.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
was Mono blue looking for more counters?
Mark Twain
If I were to play this, I would swap out my Swan Songs. I still have to see the rest of BNG before I decide if it's worth the trade off.