As a Deveri EDH player... I like that mechanic... and that sphinx is definatelly playable in my deck. I have lots of perminates I can pull off the top of my deck.
Its not playable in my standard deck which contains Ral but I am looking for other cards that have similar abilities.
Someone doesn't play much EDH >_<. 7 mana sac outlet that costs mana to activate. Yeah that's exactly what Black has been waiting for...
It'll be good for budget builds, and you've got spot removal on board with this guy and some more things to sac. He might not be the best thing ever for what he does, but he can perform decently. Perhaps I was overestimating the card (the 7 mana cmc didn't quite sink in), but not unplayable except in rather Spiky metas.
Why does the blue one put manifestation counters on permanents when said counters don't appear to have an special effects attached to their existence?
EDIT: The enchantment rider. Nevermind.
Clearly more EDH centric cards---which is not necessarily a bad thing for PR promos, though most of them are extremely dull/janky pack pulls.
The Hydra will always be a 12/12 for 6 (why let it fight when you could just block?). I have a soft spot for the old punisher cards, but this guy is...hmmm. Could be something with Blood of Flesh/Blood in G/R ramp---becomes fight or take 12 to face. Add Domri Nylea etc. Requires friends but either side is good with existing good G/R cards, so maybe.
I wonder if each lesser god is getting their own mechanic? Inspiration for Ephara, Tribute for Xenagos...
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that's not what happened at all. kamahl stabbed phage, akroma, and some old lady and they became korona. then korona got stabbed by her "prophets" and kamahl got drunk with a mutant centaur
The Hydra will always be a 12/12 for 6 (why let it fight when you could just block?). I have a soft spot for the old punisher cards, but this guy is...hmmm. Could be something with Blood of Flesh/Blood in G/R ramp---becomes fight or take 12 to face. Add Domri Nylea etc. Requires friends but either side is good with existing good G/R cards, so maybe.
.
Well, there were quite a few ways to give things evasion in THS. Aqueous Form, Fleetfeather sandals, prowler's helm. I've seen those slapped onto smaller things to great effect. A 12/12 with any of those will likely end the game in short order.
Ofcourse I'm purely looking at things from a limited standpoint. I doubt that he'll find a home anywhere in constructed.
Hmmmm, had my Spanish speaking gf look over the cards.
Looking like a pretty overcosted and boring cycle at first glance. One or two of them might end up being playable, but I don't feel all that impressed at the moment.
You can only have so many 4/5 flying creatures with janky abilities for 7 mana. Bleh.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if any of these cards have Standard applications. All of them are either 6 or 7 CMC, which is usually out of Standard range unless they are at AEtherling's power level. That said, for Limited, all of these look like bomb plays. The white one gives you recursion, which is the bane of Limited, where removal is scarce and (usually) only Black can get its creatures back. The blue one is much the same as the white one, except luck-based but possibly stronger, since you can potentially grab high-cost topdecks for free, while the white one is limited to whatever is in your yard; if you've already played and lost them, they're likely not powerful, high-cost cards unless the game has gone really late. The black one seems like the weakest to me, simply because you usually need all the creatures you can get; still, blocking and saccing your weakest guys to hit the opponent's best guy seems sweet. The red guy looks the best to me: any kind of alpha-strike pusher is usually insane in Limited, especially multi-use ones in sets like Theros block, which (so far) has tended towards massive creatures. Finally, the green one is always a solid drop, and is sometimes removal in addition. Again, none of these will do anything to Constructed (most likely) but all of these are limited bombs.
Inspiriration seems a bit strange since it encourages decks
that exclude enchantments in what is supposed to be an enchantment themed block.
I think it's likely one card that encourages excluding enchantments. Inspiration is an ability word, so only part of it is the repeated ability. I'm assuming it's the untapping part that's repeated. Inspiration is probably related to the gods, so it's unlikely they have a whole mechanic devoted to not playing enchantments. Free stuff is pretty overpowered on a cheap permanent, so that's probably out, too.
Fact or Fiction, Intuition. And no, Gifts Ungiven is also not a completely different situation either. That's just you declaring it by fiat because it negates your argument.
FoF does not give your opponent the final choice, you have it. Hence one of the reasons FoF is better than Steam Augury.
Intuition and Gifts Ungiven is giving your opponent the illusion of choice, you're getting exactly what you want no matter what they "pick".
Oona's Prowler was a punisher card that got TONS of burn in standard.
Browbeat isn't awful either.
And I think this brings up a solid point: The punisher mechanic isn't inherently bad, but rather that there are bad punisher cards. The two are completely different concepts.
Soul Ransom, for instance, suffer greatly due not to the punisher mechanic, but rather due to there being very little place for such an effect in standard right now (Stealing a Desecration Demon against Mono-Black is not particularly amazing; stealing a Polukranos against Green will only barely slow them down; stealing anything against Mono-Red is awful, barring perhaps Reckoner in some situations; stealing anything against Esper is either right out due to Blood Baron and Aetherling; and that's about it that's worth taking with Ransom; and there is nothing in Blue that you would particularly want aside from Nightveil). Couple this with Dimir being near unplayable in standard, and of course it's not going to see play. But it's not seeing play because of it's punisher ability; it's not seeing play because it's just not very well situated at all. There is no deck for it, and if there was there would only be marginal uses for it. Its not stellar in any way, mind you, but it's hurt far more by the meta than by itself.
Browbeat is perhaps the least understood of the punisher cards. It's not amazing, mind you, but far to often I see people call it awful due to it being a punisher card. And if you just toss into a random deck, it's awful. Why would you do that? It will simply be a terrible inclusion.
Yet, in an aggressive build that runs hot it can find a nice home. Why? Because you know exactly what you are getting when you play it, or at least you will if you play it correctly. If you just throw it out there, it's terrible. If you play it at the right time with a little fore-thought beforehand, it's quite solid.
Granted, there are cases where this wouldn't be so: Steam Augury would be incredible as a FoF reprint. As of right now, it's marginal. I've played extensively with it, and I can attest in certain builds it is alright and far from awful. It's just that it is mediocre overall. As is the case with most punisher cards: They are marginal *to begin with*.
What should be a correct translation (Spanish fluency and English grammar/spelling skills are useful):
Silent Sentinel5WW
Creature - Archon (rare)
Flying
Whenever Silent Sentinel attacks, you may return target enchantment card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It serves a higher justice than the whims of the gods.
4/6
Mediator of the Ideal4UU
Creature - Sphinx (rare)
Flying Inspiration - Whenever Mediator of the Ideal becomes untapped, reveal the top card of your library. If its an artifact, creature, or land card, you may put it onto the battlefield with a manifestation counter on it. It is an enchantment in addition to its other types.
4/5
Devourer of Hope5BB
Creature - Demon (rare)
Flying B, Sacrifice another creature: Regenerate Devourer of Hope. 2B, Sacrifice two other creatures: Destroy target creature. The gods can be appeased, but the demons cannot...
6/4
Firestoker Dragon4RR
Creature - Dragon (rare)
Flying 1R: Firestoker Dragon deals 1 damage to target creature. That creature can't block this combat. Activate this ability only if Firestoker Dragon is attacking. The Akron adorn their coffins to honor the dragons, not to protect from them; for that they would provide little help.
5/4
Wild Nessian Devastator4GG
Creature - Hydra (rare)
Tribute 6 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may put 6 +1/+1 counters on it.)
When Wild Nessian Devastator enters the battlefield, if its tribute wasn't paid, you may have Wild Nessian Devastator fight another target creature.
6/6
For some reason I want to try running Witches' Eye on that sphinx. I wish that archon wasn't so expensive. The ability to return things like Soul Tithe would be much more awesome on a slightly smaller body in the 5 spot.
Man when was the last time an intro pack rare was pushed? These are the "hey look at me come check out the pre-release and its weird mechanics" rares, not the game-changing winners.
Desecration demon isn't strictly a punisher mechanic since it's an effect that keeps happening on every turn (consistency!) (including yours! If you really need a sac outlet or to tap down the blocker or something) and only delays the inevitable instead of setting up some kind of modality where a spell either does damage or loses you life. It's not a bad mechanic, it's just fairly unreliable, doubly so in limited.
Take Vexing Devil, for instance. Same standard as desecration demon. Vexing Devil, though, reads "this card is either 4 damage to your opponent's face (ignoring multiplayer) or a 4/3 dude for R." Way above rate, right? Yet that card got edged out considerably by the notably slower stromkirk noble. Why? Consistency.
There's probably a very good reason why absolutely no one is interested in purchasing the card. Just saying. Saying that the card is good in budget decks is like saying that any other card is good is budget decks. Sure, fine, you're still going to get smashed by the people who invest money in to their decks. Being good in a budget decks is fairly meaningless in that sense. Ok, you manged to string 100 cards together, have fun losing the vast majority of your games.
Perhaps I was overestimating the card (the 7 mana cmc didn't quite sink in), but not unplayable except in rather Spiky metas.
See, just because people call 7 mana unplayables bad doesn't mean that my meta is filled with hyper-competitive Spikes. The card is just legitimately trash compared to any number of alternative 6 and 7 drops. With respect to being sac outlet he's never going to compete with Altars in EDH. Ashnod's Altar et al. are free and if you're trying to combo off with a 4 mana spell such as Grave Pact then a 7 mana spell such as this isn't really doing you much good.
To give you an idea most people don't even play Butcher of Malakir in their Grave Pact Stax/Control decks. Why? It's a 7 mana do-nothing who dies to removal for very little value. Nice Innocent Blood. This guy is significantly weaker than Butcher in the Grave Pact deck which is a card that isn't even that playable to begin with.
I just have to imagine that you're one of those people who sees a 7 mana spell and blindly spews "oh good in EDH." It's obnoxious. This card is horrendous from a competitive perspective not because I'm some Spike but because any number of alternative 7 drops (Sheoldred, Whispering One, Sepulchral Primordial, Grave Betrayal) all have a significantly higher impact on the game. Since you don't want expensive sac outlets that cost mana, you want cheap ones that are free (High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, Altar of Dementia, Sadistic Hypnotist) this guy is basically unplayable assuming that you're building a reasonably powerful deck.
There's probably a very good reason why absolutely no one is interested in purchasing the card. Just saying. Saying that the card is good in budget decks is like saying that any other card is good is budget decks. Sure, fine, you're still going to get smashed by the people who invest money in to their decks. Welcome to Magic.
See, just because people call 7 mana unplayables bad doesn't mean that my meta is filled with hyper-competitive Spikes. The card is just legitimately trash compared to any number of alternative 6 and 7 drops. With respect to being sac outlet he's never going to compete with Altars in EDH. Ashnod's Altar et al. are free and if you're trying to combo off with a 4 mana spell such as Grave Pact then a 7 mana spell such as this isn't really doing you much good.
To give you an idea most people don't even play Butcher of Malakir in their Grave Pact Stax/Control decks. Why? It's a 7 mana do-nothing who dies to removal for very little value. Nice Innocent Blood. This guy is significantly weaker than Butcher in the Grave Pact deck which is a card that isn't even that playable to begin with.
I just have to imagine that you're one of those people who sees a 7 man spell and blindly spews "oh good in EDH." It's obnoxious. This card is horrendous from a competitive perspective not because I'm some Spike but because any number of alternative 7 drops (Sheoldred, Whispering One, Sepulchral Primordial, Grave Betrayal) all have a significantly higher impact on the game. Since you don't want expensive sac outlets that cost mana, you want cheap ones that are free (Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, Altar of Dementia, Sadistic Hypnotist) this guy is basically unplayable assuming that you're building a reasonably powerful deck.
I second lumovanis
end of your turn i will scry
untap
put this on the battlefield...
seems legit to me.
Unless there is a downside to the manifestation counter, like the stupid illusion bs...
The green one is meah seriously who will be yeah have a 12/12 and in ths ths bng draft I am just just waiting to hear:
Do you put the 6 +1/+1's?
No.
Well then its doing 6 damage to XXXXX
in response gods willing pro green...
OR
Do you pay the tribute?
sure... and on the end of your turn hero's downfall... sip of hemlock... voyages end... etc
Sure a 6 mana 12/12 cool I doubt it will live very long, and 6 mana for a decent possibility of a 6/6 and/or removal isn't bad in limited... but still not fantastic.
the demon would excel in a red black token deck... if there was one...
the archon could be legit with bestow, if it allows you to bring back the bestowers as enchantments, if not its still a dude. Or for the control player to get back their spheres, pacifisms, and claustrophobias.
The red dragon seems legit in in limited and could find an interesting home in a RG domri/ xenogos beat down dragon and hydra deck
BUT MOSTLY when has a prerelease promo not sucked (sure some have been really good, but you couldn't use them in your deck)... they are the least good (or at least very close to being the least good) rares in the sets. They usually highlight some new mechanic/gimmick that the designers want to slap us in the faces with. Thats just my 2 cents
Just got hit by my 4/5 flier in limited did you? Here's some insult to go with your injury. And I was just wondering when they'd print something new and fun for Maelstrom Wanderer's devil may care fatty roulette. Wheeeeeeeeee!
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
Tribute is cool, especially for EDH. The hydra is going into a deck. The Sphinx seems really awesome. The Archon is okay and rather predictable. The demon and dragon are clunky as hell though. The dragon costs wayyyy too much for a 5/4. The demon feels like it's trying too hard to be a utility creature and a big beater at the same time and failing at both.
That is if you built your deck correctly and made the proper choices for yourself, as well played your cards with the correct timing. The same thing that Punisher cards ask for.
However, how about you state something about the comparison to Desecration Demon, which I think is very apt.
Have to nitpick here- the difference is that you get to make the decisions that matter with gifts/intuition/FoF whereas with the punisher mechanic cards (and steam augury) your opponent makes the decisions that matter. Not to say that punisher cards suck by default- I think vexing devil and browbeat can be fine cards in the right deck for example even if neither one will ever be the star of the show.
Desecration Demon isn't exactly a punisher mechanic card so much as a creature with a punisher upkeep as no matter what choice your opponent makes, you still have your giant undercosted flyer in play, and you can proactively remove their ability to have a choice much easier than when the counter to your spell is a few points of life. This is aided considerably by the fact that he comes down early. Another giant early drop that is a much better comparison to the hydra is Alms Beast which isn't exactly tearing up the tournament scene.
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Its not playable in my standard deck which contains Ral but I am looking for other cards that have similar abilities.
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It'll be good for budget builds, and you've got spot removal on board with this guy and some more things to sac. He might not be the best thing ever for what he does, but he can perform decently. Perhaps I was overestimating the card (the 7 mana cmc didn't quite sink in), but not unplayable except in rather Spiky metas.
EDIT: The enchantment rider. Nevermind.
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Most likely to remind you the permanent is an enchantment.
The Hydra will always be a 12/12 for 6 (why let it fight when you could just block?). I have a soft spot for the old punisher cards, but this guy is...hmmm. Could be something with Blood of Flesh/Blood in G/R ramp---becomes fight or take 12 to face. Add Domri Nylea etc. Requires friends but either side is good with existing good G/R cards, so maybe.
I wonder if each lesser god is getting their own mechanic? Inspiration for Ephara, Tribute for Xenagos...
Well, there were quite a few ways to give things evasion in THS. Aqueous Form, Fleetfeather sandals, prowler's helm. I've seen those slapped onto smaller things to great effect. A 12/12 with any of those will likely end the game in short order.
Ofcourse I'm purely looking at things from a limited standpoint. I doubt that he'll find a home anywhere in constructed.
Looking like a pretty overcosted and boring cycle at first glance. One or two of them might end up being playable, but I don't feel all that impressed at the moment.
You can only have so many 4/5 flying creatures with janky abilities for 7 mana. Bleh.
.
I hope not. I still want Phenax to have the Dark Confidant ability and Scry 2 as an activated ability.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think it's likely one card that encourages excluding enchantments. Inspiration is an ability word, so only part of it is the repeated ability. I'm assuming it's the untapping part that's repeated. Inspiration is probably related to the gods, so it's unlikely they have a whole mechanic devoted to not playing enchantments. Free stuff is pretty overpowered on a cheap permanent, so that's probably out, too.
FoF does not give your opponent the final choice, you have it. Hence one of the reasons FoF is better than Steam Augury.
Intuition and Gifts Ungiven is giving your opponent the illusion of choice, you're getting exactly what you want no matter what they "pick".
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Browbeat isn't awful either.
And I think this brings up a solid point: The punisher mechanic isn't inherently bad, but rather that there are bad punisher cards. The two are completely different concepts.
Soul Ransom, for instance, suffer greatly due not to the punisher mechanic, but rather due to there being very little place for such an effect in standard right now (Stealing a Desecration Demon against Mono-Black is not particularly amazing; stealing a Polukranos against Green will only barely slow them down; stealing anything against Mono-Red is awful, barring perhaps Reckoner in some situations; stealing anything against Esper is either right out due to Blood Baron and Aetherling; and that's about it that's worth taking with Ransom; and there is nothing in Blue that you would particularly want aside from Nightveil). Couple this with Dimir being near unplayable in standard, and of course it's not going to see play. But it's not seeing play because of it's punisher ability; it's not seeing play because it's just not very well situated at all. There is no deck for it, and if there was there would only be marginal uses for it. Its not stellar in any way, mind you, but it's hurt far more by the meta than by itself.
Browbeat is perhaps the least understood of the punisher cards. It's not amazing, mind you, but far to often I see people call it awful due to it being a punisher card. And if you just toss into a random deck, it's awful. Why would you do that? It will simply be a terrible inclusion.
Yet, in an aggressive build that runs hot it can find a nice home. Why? Because you know exactly what you are getting when you play it, or at least you will if you play it correctly. If you just throw it out there, it's terrible. If you play it at the right time with a little fore-thought beforehand, it's quite solid.
Granted, there are cases where this wouldn't be so: Steam Augury would be incredible as a FoF reprint. As of right now, it's marginal. I've played extensively with it, and I can attest in certain builds it is alright and far from awful. It's just that it is mediocre overall. As is the case with most punisher cards: They are marginal *to begin with*.
Silent Sentinel 5WW
Creature - Archon (rare)
Flying
Whenever Silent Sentinel attacks, you may return target enchantment card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
It serves a higher justice than the whims of the gods.
4/6
Mediator of the Ideal 4UU
Creature - Sphinx (rare)
Flying
Inspiration - Whenever Mediator of the Ideal becomes untapped, reveal the top card of your library. If its an artifact, creature, or land card, you may put it onto the battlefield with a manifestation counter on it. It is an enchantment in addition to its other types.
4/5
Devourer of Hope 5BB
Creature - Demon (rare)
Flying
B, Sacrifice another creature: Regenerate Devourer of Hope.
2B, Sacrifice two other creatures: Destroy target creature.
The gods can be appeased, but the demons cannot...
6/4
Firestoker Dragon 4RR
Creature - Dragon (rare)
Flying
1R: Firestoker Dragon deals 1 damage to target creature. That creature can't block this combat. Activate this ability only if Firestoker Dragon is attacking.
The Akron adorn their coffins to honor the dragons, not to protect from them; for that they would provide little help.
5/4
Wild Nessian Devastator 4GG
Creature - Hydra (rare)
Tribute 6 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may put 6 +1/+1 counters on it.)
When Wild Nessian Devastator enters the battlefield, if its tribute wasn't paid, you may have Wild Nessian Devastator fight another target creature.
6/6
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Desecration demon isn't strictly a punisher mechanic since it's an effect that keeps happening on every turn (consistency!) (including yours! If you really need a sac outlet or to tap down the blocker or something) and only delays the inevitable instead of setting up some kind of modality where a spell either does damage or loses you life. It's not a bad mechanic, it's just fairly unreliable, doubly so in limited.
Take Vexing Devil, for instance. Same standard as desecration demon. Vexing Devil, though, reads "this card is either 4 damage to your opponent's face (ignoring multiplayer) or a 4/3 dude for R." Way above rate, right? Yet that card got edged out considerably by the notably slower stromkirk noble. Why? Consistency.
There's probably a very good reason why absolutely no one is interested in purchasing the card. Just saying. Saying that the card is good in budget decks is like saying that any other card is good is budget decks. Sure, fine, you're still going to get smashed by the people who invest money in to their decks. Being good in a budget decks is fairly meaningless in that sense. Ok, you manged to string 100 cards together, have fun losing the vast majority of your games.
See, just because people call 7 mana unplayables bad doesn't mean that my meta is filled with hyper-competitive Spikes. The card is just legitimately trash compared to any number of alternative 6 and 7 drops. With respect to being sac outlet he's never going to compete with Altars in EDH. Ashnod's Altar et al. are free and if you're trying to combo off with a 4 mana spell such as Grave Pact then a 7 mana spell such as this isn't really doing you much good.
To give you an idea most people don't even play Butcher of Malakir in their Grave Pact Stax/Control decks. Why? It's a 7 mana do-nothing who dies to removal for very little value. Nice Innocent Blood. This guy is significantly weaker than Butcher in the Grave Pact deck which is a card that isn't even that playable to begin with.
I just have to imagine that you're one of those people who sees a 7 mana spell and blindly spews "oh good in EDH." It's obnoxious. This card is horrendous from a competitive perspective not because I'm some Spike but because any number of alternative 7 drops (Sheoldred, Whispering One, Sepulchral Primordial, Grave Betrayal) all have a significantly higher impact on the game. Since you don't want expensive sac outlets that cost mana, you want cheap ones that are free (High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, Altar of Dementia, Sadistic Hypnotist) this guy is basically unplayable assuming that you're building a reasonably powerful deck.
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I guess you don't play limited.
end of your turn i will scry
untap
put this on the battlefield...
seems legit to me.
Unless there is a downside to the manifestation counter, like the stupid illusion bs...
The green one is meah seriously who will be yeah have a 12/12 and in ths ths bng draft I am just just waiting to hear:
Do you put the 6 +1/+1's?
No.
Well then its doing 6 damage to XXXXX
in response gods willing pro green...
OR
Do you pay the tribute?
sure... and on the end of your turn hero's downfall... sip of hemlock... voyages end... etc
Sure a 6 mana 12/12 cool I doubt it will live very long, and 6 mana for a decent possibility of a 6/6 and/or removal isn't bad in limited... but still not fantastic.
the demon would excel in a red black token deck... if there was one...
the archon could be legit with bestow, if it allows you to bring back the bestowers as enchantments, if not its still a dude. Or for the control player to get back their spheres, pacifisms, and claustrophobias.
The red dragon seems legit in in limited and could find an interesting home in a RG domri/ xenogos beat down dragon and hydra deck
BUT MOSTLY when has a prerelease promo not sucked (sure some have been really good, but you couldn't use them in your deck)... they are the least good (or at least very close to being the least good) rares in the sets. They usually highlight some new mechanic/gimmick that the designers want to slap us in the faces with. Thats just my 2 cents
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Have to nitpick here- the difference is that you get to make the decisions that matter with gifts/intuition/FoF whereas with the punisher mechanic cards (and steam augury) your opponent makes the decisions that matter. Not to say that punisher cards suck by default- I think vexing devil and browbeat can be fine cards in the right deck for example even if neither one will ever be the star of the show.
Desecration Demon isn't exactly a punisher mechanic card so much as a creature with a punisher upkeep as no matter what choice your opponent makes, you still have your giant undercosted flyer in play, and you can proactively remove their ability to have a choice much easier than when the counter to your spell is a few points of life. This is aided considerably by the fact that he comes down early. Another giant early drop that is a much better comparison to the hydra is Alms Beast which isn't exactly tearing up the tournament scene.