But there's a difference between U/ counted as one devotion to UOR devotion to B than couting hybrid mana as one devotion to UAND one devotion to B
Imho, idea that specter will give you only 3 devotion to B or U sounds most reasonable
Okay, but if you read OP's hint it specifically says 'and,' not 'or.' And, again, Reckoner clearly counts as both for Heliod and Purphoros, why would he stop being both for Iroas?
I agree that
- there's no point speculating, the OP did not include the rules text
- gameplay- and flavor-wise, it makes a ton more sense to only count hybrid mana once; having a Rubblebelt Raider be so devoted that it activates Xenagos seems iffy. And with Reckoner and Specter being two of the most popular Standard creatures, it seems completely off-balance to have them do the same. Even those who believe in count-twice have to concede that.
I agree that
- there's no point speculating, the OP did not include the rules text
- gameplay- and flavor-wise, it makes a ton more sense to only count hybrid mana once; having a Rubblebelt Raider be so devoted that it activates Xenagos seems iffy. And with Reckoner and Specter being two of the most popular Standard creatures, it seems completely off-balance to have them do the same. Even those who believe in count-twice have to concede that.
So Reckoner shouldn't turn both Heliod and Purphoros into creatures? Wizards is going to look really silly changing the rules now, months after their release.
It is only logical that creatures like Boros Reckoner would be counted twice when it comes to devotion, I don't see why they would not
So Boros Reckoner counts as 6? D: that makes no sense to me, an {W/R} symbol is "A white and red symbol", not "a white symbol AND a red symbol". Reckoner should count as 3.
It counts both. because both values of the printed hybrid cost are always on the permanent in question. I can't believe this hadn't come up on the internet with nykthos being around for months.
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So Boros Reckoner counts as 6? D: that makes no sense to me, an {W/R} symbol is A white and red symbol, not a white symbol AND a red symbol. Reckoner should count as 3.
Reckoner already counts as 6. Please see my post on the previous page.
Using Chroma as a precedent, or just a straightforward reading of the rules, hybrid mana symbols would count as both, and it seems to me that Wizards prefers sticking to a straightforward interaction with the rules, and adjusting the card's power level appropriately, rather than littering an ability with addenda.
This would explain the 7 devotion total and (people haven't really been mentioning) the lack of activated abilities. They may also be costed less aggressively and have smaller bodies.
The :symrg::symrg: in Burning-Tree Emissary could mean Xenagos will be good in Limited, or it could mean that they'll print him as expensive casual-Extended fodder.
They are different cards looking at devotion independently and not caring about the other card. Heliod doesn't care that his 3W was counting as 3R for Purphoros.
Iroas may well care that it's 3W/R and count it was 3W/R instead of 3W and 3R since it's looking at both sets of mana symbols at the same time for the same card.
They could write the rule either way so we can't give a definitive answer but common sense says that it will probally not count twice as it'll be very powerful.
Tell me why it'll be very powerful. Do you already know what Phenax and Iroas do? If so, please share.
They are different cards looking at devotion independently and not caring about the other card. Heliod doesn't care that his 3W was counting as 3R for Purphoros.
Iroas may well care that it's 3W/R and count it was 3W/R instead of 3W and 3R since it's looking at both sets of mana symbols at the same time for the same card.
They could write the rule either way so we can't give a definitive answer but common sense says that it will probally not count twice as it'll be very powerful.
But it is the same thing. If the new gods are worded like they are suggested in the OP, then it would be one card looking independently at two devotion counts and adding them together.
So what if some color combinations end up working better with devotion than others due to some hybrid cards. Not all colors get equal performance from all mechanics. Black was completely left in the cold when it came to AVR's miracle mechanic.
So Reckoner shouldn't turn both Heliod and Purphoros into creatures? Wizards is going to look really silly changing the rules now, months after their release.
Two separate instances of devotion. This card, one instance of devotion. The card looks at symbols. There are three symbols on reckoner. Each symbol counts as either red or white, but are each still only counted as one because there's only one symbol on the card, not a red symbol and a white symbol.
Two separate instances of devotion. This card, one instance of devotion. The card looks at symbols. There are three symbols on reckoner. Each symbol counts as either red or white.
I see 6 symbols on Reckoner. Symbol =/= cost.
"All gods become creatures when their devotion to Color A and Color B is higher than 7."
Devotion is actually a characteristic of you, the player, not the god or the hybrid cards. With Reckoner in play, your devotion to white is three, and your devotion to red is also three. According to OP's hint, or perhaps despite it, the gods will only see that you possess devotion in those quantities. It does not actually look at Reckoner itself. Therefor, Iroas will see that you have 6 devotion (not including his own).
Two separate instances of devotion. This card, one instance of devotion. The card looks at symbols. There are three symbols on reckoner. Each symbol counts as either red or white, but are each still only counted as one because there's only one symbol on the card, not a red symbol and a white symbol.
The symbols are not red or white, they are red and white
"It doesn't come up in Theros, but hybrid mana symbols and other unusual colored mana symbols also count toward your devotion to each of their colors. For example, a permanent that costs R/G R/G adds two to your devotion to red and two to your devotion to green."
Sounds to me like a 2 CMC creature gives you 4 devotion.
Ok, quoting mtgwiki:
So by analogy, whenever you count your devotion, you need to choose if reckoner count as RRR,RRW,RWW or WWW, reckoner can't cout as RRRWWW because he have only 3 "slots" to fill
That's my statement, and its EOT for me till official FAQ ;P
Uh, no. Devotion doesn't care about what you actually spend to cast the card. There is no analogy.
Devotion would see three symbols that have the qualities of red and white on them.
700.5. A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Checking for devotion to red and white would each see three red and white symbols, not three white symbols and three red symbols. Again, if it's checked twice, then it would count them twice. If it's checked once (more likely imo) then they're counted once.
"It doesn't come up in Theros, but hybrid mana symbols and other unusual colored mana symbols also count toward your devotion to each of their colors. For example, a permanent that costs R/G R/G adds two to your devotion to red and two to your devotion to green."
Sounds to me like a 2 CMC creature gives you 4 devotion.
Uh, no. Devotion doesn't care about what you actually spend to cast the card. There is no analogy.
No, a 2 symbol creature gives you 2 devotion to red and 2 devotion to green. This is not really a hard concept but people really want it to be broken so oh well.
Devotion would see three symbols that have the qualities of red and white on them.
700.5. A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Checking for devotion to red and white would each see three red and white symbols, not three white symbols and three red symbols. Again, if it's checked twice, then it would count them twice. If it's checked once (more likely imo) then they're counted once.
No, a 2 symbol creature gives you 2 devotion to red and 2 devotion to green. This is not really a hard concept but people really want it to be broken so oh well.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Somewhere on the far side of the world, Patrick Stewart is facepalming like he's never facepalmed before.
When you add two and two, what do you get? If you read the article, or even just the quoted selection, you can see that it clearly contradicts your statement.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Somewhere on the far side of the world, Patrick Stewart is facepalming like he's never facepalmed before.
When you add two and two, what do you get?
You get two and two, because you're adding two devotion to red and two devotion to green. Devotion is color specific, so you can't add two devotions together to get four any more than you can add two apples to two bananas and say that you've got four bananas. Sure, you have four fruit, but if you're looking for bananas what use are apples?
The question is really the wording and ruling on the gods. Is devotion to A +B = devotion of A + devotion of B, or does your devotion to both colours need to be >7? This will surely be cleared up when the mechanics of BNG article is posted on the mothership, which should be very soon.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Somewhere on the far side of the world, Patrick Stewart is facepalming like he's never facepalmed before.
If he does, it's because he knows that all these points are moot until we know the wording of the minor gods instead of lending any kind of official meaning to what was essentially a paraphrasing.
Devotion would see three symbols that have the qualities of red and white on them.
700.5. A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Checking for devotion to red and white would each see three red and white symbols, not three white symbols and three red symbols. Again, if it's checked twice, then it would count them twice. If it's checked once (more likely imo) then they're counted once.
No, a 2 symbol creature gives you 2 devotion to red and 2 devotion to green. This is not really a hard concept but people really want it to be broken so oh well.
Of course right now the rules have not been updated with new keywords and new abilities. I agree that checking for devotion to red on my BTE would be 2 red... when it checks fro green it would be two green also. Total of 4 devotion combined if a god needs a combined total of 7 to be active
You guys are really starting to crush my faith in the common sense of posters here. Of course we don't know exactly what the text on the gods is, but that's not what we're talking about right now. As the rules stand right now, Reckoner gives a total of 6 devotion - 3 white and 3 red.
It's either very strange or very convenient that so many of you are willing to accept the rest of OP's hint at face value, but when it comes to deciding if he's mistaken about devotion you choose to reserve judgment until you actually see the cards. Given that your apparent disbelief can not be logically assuaged in any other way, I can only assume that it must be the latter.
Imagine if Xenagos costs <4 and his static ability is haste to creatures you control. Have Xenagos out, play Rubblebelt Raiders, attack with both and get counters on them.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Okay, but if you read OP's hint it specifically says 'and,' not 'or.' And, again, Reckoner clearly counts as both for Heliod and Purphoros, why would he stop being both for Iroas?
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- there's no point speculating, the OP did not include the rules text
- gameplay- and flavor-wise, it makes a ton more sense to only count hybrid mana once; having a Rubblebelt Raider be so devoted that it activates Xenagos seems iffy. And with Reckoner and Specter being two of the most popular Standard creatures, it seems completely off-balance to have them do the same. Even those who believe in count-twice have to concede that.
So Reckoner shouldn't turn both Heliod and Purphoros into creatures? Wizards is going to look really silly changing the rules now, months after their release.
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#DefundThePolice
So Boros Reckoner counts as 6? D: that makes no sense to me, an {W/R} symbol is "A white and red symbol", not "a white symbol AND a red symbol". Reckoner should count as 3.
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Reckoner already counts as 6. Please see my post on the previous page.
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This would explain the 7 devotion total and (people haven't really been mentioning) the lack of activated abilities. They may also be costed less aggressively and have smaller bodies.
The :symrg::symrg: in Burning-Tree Emissary could mean Xenagos will be good in Limited, or it could mean that they'll print him as expensive casual-Extended fodder.
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Tell me why it'll be very powerful. Do you already know what Phenax and Iroas do? If so, please share.
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But it is the same thing. If the new gods are worded like they are suggested in the OP, then it would be one card looking independently at two devotion counts and adding them together.
So what if some color combinations end up working better with devotion than others due to some hybrid cards. Not all colors get equal performance from all mechanics. Black was completely left in the cold when it came to AVR's miracle mechanic.
Two separate instances of devotion. This card, one instance of devotion. The card looks at symbols. There are three symbols on reckoner. Each symbol counts as either red or white, but are each still only counted as one because there's only one symbol on the card, not a red symbol and a white symbol.
I see 6 symbols on Reckoner. Symbol =/= cost.
"All gods become creatures when their devotion to Color A and Color B is higher than 7."
Devotion is actually a characteristic of you, the player, not the god or the hybrid cards. With Reckoner in play, your devotion to white is three, and your devotion to red is also three. According to OP's hint, or perhaps despite it, the gods will only see that you possess devotion in those quantities. It does not actually look at Reckoner itself. Therefor, Iroas will see that you have 6 devotion (not including his own).
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You should get your glasses checked then, since there are three r/w symbols literally on the card.
Hybrid mana is a different kind of symbol than just mashing up two other symbols, despite the way they look.
The symbols are not red or white, they are red and white
Devotion would see Boros Reckoner as RRR/WW
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/therosmechanics
"It doesn't come up in Theros, but hybrid mana symbols and other unusual colored mana symbols also count toward your devotion to each of their colors. For example, a permanent that costs R/G R/G adds two to your devotion to red and two to your devotion to green."
Sounds to me like a 2 CMC creature gives you 4 devotion.
Uh, no. Devotion doesn't care about what you actually spend to cast the card. There is no analogy.
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Devotion would see three symbols that have the qualities of red and white on them.
700.5. A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Checking for devotion to red and white would each see three red and white symbols, not three white symbols and three red symbols. Again, if it's checked twice, then it would count them twice. If it's checked once (more likely imo) then they're counted once.
No, a 2 symbol creature gives you 2 devotion to red and 2 devotion to green. This is not really a hard concept but people really want it to be broken so oh well.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Somewhere on the far side of the world, Patrick Stewart is facepalming like he's never facepalmed before.
When you add two and two, what do you get? If you read the article, or even just the quoted selection, you can see that it clearly contradicts your statement.
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You get two and two, because you're adding two devotion to red and two devotion to green. Devotion is color specific, so you can't add two devotions together to get four any more than you can add two apples to two bananas and say that you've got four bananas. Sure, you have four fruit, but if you're looking for bananas what use are apples?
The question is really the wording and ruling on the gods. Is devotion to A +B = devotion of A + devotion of B, or does your devotion to both colours need to be >7? This will surely be cleared up when the mechanics of BNG article is posted on the mothership, which should be very soon.
If he does, it's because he knows that all these points are moot until we know the wording of the minor gods instead of lending any kind of official meaning to what was essentially a paraphrasing.
Of course right now the rules have not been updated with new keywords and new abilities. I agree that checking for devotion to red on my BTE would be 2 red... when it checks fro green it would be two green also. Total of 4 devotion combined if a god needs a combined total of 7 to be active
It's either very strange or very convenient that so many of you are willing to accept the rest of OP's hint at face value, but when it comes to deciding if he's mistaken about devotion you choose to reserve judgment until you actually see the cards. Given that your apparent disbelief can not be logically assuaged in any other way, I can only assume that it must be the latter.
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Imagine if Xenagos costs <4 and his static ability is haste to creatures you control. Have Xenagos out, play Rubblebelt Raiders, attack with both and get counters on them.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
But it already does. What do you not get about this?
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