Yeah, it was written by an "experience designer" not a rules manager. I've been arguing with someone elsewhere over whether or not hero cards were truly intended to be played as permanents. I'm arguing that they should follow the rules for Vanguards as described in section 311, because having your hero card destroyed (Abrupt Decay), exiled (Oblivion Ring), bounced (Capsize), or stolen (Confiscate) really destroys the flavor of hero cards.
Context: we are experimenting with using them in variants beyond the challenge decks.
***EDIT: Pictures of the Hydra Playmat attached!***
Oops, I forgot I had these. They've been sitting in my phone for over a week. The playmat seems to be made of high quality, probably waterproof, paper. I'm guessing that the mat is included with the challenge deck (this was not clarified with the person who let me take these pictures).
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
So judging by the rules, for each head on the battlefield, it's dealing damage to you on each turn for each head on the battlefield. Well now, that would be interesting as you would be a couple of damage redirection spells at the very least. Not sure what the ruling is on that, but ouch. Even on 2-4, getting dinged can cause some issues.
I would say this is definitely going to be a pain, especially since one of my favorite cards (Evil Twin) can't be played in a standard, but ... one never knows what could happen if you hit it in a non-STD game.
I haven't been able to locate these in stores. I'm assuming they haven't been released yet, correct?
As Yeef said above me, they'll be released for sale on Gameday. Most stores received two labeled "Not for Resale" that are to be used on Gameday for the actual "Face the Hydra" event.
As someone who has played with and against the Hydra deck already, I'll admit it's super-fun to play with. It unleashes the inner-Timmy of my days as a brand new player back in the original Mirrodin block. Playing against it is a unique, interesting, and a surprisingly fun experience also. I have both lost to it and defeated it.
How fascinating. At first I thought the number of heads was really low, but some of those Sorceries are killer. Not sure if I'll want just one deck or if I'll want to get two copies and make some sort of Frankenstein version, but if I use this in Commander, I assume I'll want to put two decks together.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
I didn't pick up on it in the thread, but how exactly do you "kill" the heads by attacking them? do we treat each of the heads kind of like planeswalker loyalty until they get enough damage to kill them? or does the damage go away at end of turn like with creatures?
This is hard, there is the Vorthos part of me that really wants to make a heavy flavour deck and have an epic battle against the Hydra, then there is the part of me that wants to make sure I win and just use an all removal all the time deck.
EDIT: What happens if the Hydra gets a creature token because of Swan Song, Curse of Swine or a similar effect, can it use those to block?
Is there any ruling anywhere that actually says the Hydra doesn't count as an "opponent"? I can't find such a thing anywhere. Also, while drawing and discarding are impossible, Mind Grind milling seems like it's more than possible.
I wish they'd release the rules before Game Day so we know what kind of decks we can play against the Hydra.
That really does make this a challenge then. It usually takes a few turns to get 8 power on the field so those.0/8 heads are gonna be a *****.
Don't forget you can use up to 2 Hero cards as well. If you think your specific deck might have trouble with some of the tougher heads, try using The Avenger to kill them with Deathtouch, or The Philospher to keep them tapped (tapped Heads don't damage you, afaik)
Is there any ruling anywhere that actually says the Hydra doesn't count as an "opponent"? I can't find such a thing anywhere. Also, while drawing and discarding are impossible, Mind Grind milling seems like it's more than possible.
I wish they'd release the rules before Game Day so we know what kind of decks we can play against the Hydra.
Well, since there are no lands in the Hydra deck, a Mind Grind for 1 would end the game instantly. Since I doubt this is the idea of the game, I don't think Mill is a legal strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Undercity Informer & Mind Grind here make regrowing heads impossible, since they mill all the remaining heads into the graveyard. You get 8 one mana unconditional removal spells, and 16 two mana unconditional removal spells (half of which can/will be Plague Wind). Also, all 3 of Dimir Charm's modes are relevant here. Finally, Syncopate is a one mana hard counter, since you can choose to have the Hydra not pay 0 when you counter its play for the turn.
Undercity Informer & Mind Grind here make regrowing heads impossible, since they mill all the remaining heads into the graveyard. You get 8 one mana unconditional removal spells, and 16 two mana unconditional removal spells (half of which can/will be Plague Wind). Also, all 3 of Dimir Charm's modes are relevant here. Finally, Syncopate is a one mana hard counter, since you can choose to have the Hydra not pay 0 when you counter its play for the turn.
With that deck, why not just run Mind Grind for 1? The hydra loses instantly, because the deck has no lands.
My shop is using the following rules:
1. Spells and abilities that target the hydra's library do not work.
2. Hydra heads are unique creatures in that they have no discernable CMC. Their CMC is not 0, it is unknown.
3. You can give the Hydra creature tokens, they do not do anything and cannot attack or block.
4. Heads that are cast are not spells, and cannot be countered. Hydra spells are spells and can be countered.
5. If a head would leave play for any reason, it dies instead. This includes exiling under another creature.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Updated to include Mind Grind, but it's only 1 cheaper than Balustrade Spy. Also the hydra won't lose instantly - it doesn't draw each turn, so you still have to kill any remaining Heads.
If you gain control of a head, does it do damage during your end step to the hydra?
According to the rules, the Hydra only does damage on its turn equal to the number of Heads it controls. Technically, the Hydra (opponent) is the source of damage, not the Head.
Oddly, from the posted rules, you could steal a Head and attack the Hydra (opponent) to redirect the damage to the Head you control ("the Head of your choice").
The most important rule is keep it fun! If the rules on the playmat or in this article don't answer your questions, do what's the most fun for your customers!
Hero Cards: Remind players they can start the Challenge with up to two Hero Cards on the battlefield.
Color, converted mana cost: All cards in the Hydra Deck, including Heads on the battlefield are colorless and have a converted mana cost of 0.
Preventing Damage: Prevention effects (such as one the Hero Card The Protector creates) still work, but since Heads (and the Hydra itself) have no color, effects that prevent damage from a color (e.g., a green source) won't do anything. Also, in Step 3 of the Hydra's turn, it's the Hydra that deals damage. This damage is dealt all at once. Although the Hydra never attacks, you can consider this damage to be combat damage for cards such as Fog.
Life total: Each player starts at 20 life.
Multiplayer: If teams are facing the Hydra, we recommend using a shared team turn (like what's used in an Archenemy game) with up to four players per team. In this way, the players attack the Hydra together. The Hydra takes its turn as described in the rules, and it deals damage to each player at the end of its turn.
Special Rules for Heads: Players can't gain control of any Heads. If a Head would go to any zone other than the Hydra's graveyard, it's put into the Hydra's graveyard instead.
Countering the Hydra's Spells: The Hydra casts its Heads and sorceries. These work like any other spell and can be countered.
Growing New Heads: The Hydra's ability to "grow new heads" is a triggered ability.
"Can't be regenerated": Fair idea, but growing new heads isn't regeneration.
Decking the Hydra: Almost there, but the Challenge is not yet over! The Hydra plays on even if its library is empty.
Found on the WPN site. So yes, you can mill the hydra, and no, you can't gain control of the heads. It's easy to destroy the hydra with a specialist deck.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yeah, it was written by an "experience designer" not a rules manager. I've been arguing with someone elsewhere over whether or not hero cards were truly intended to be played as permanents. I'm arguing that they should follow the rules for Vanguards as described in section 311, because having your hero card destroyed (Abrupt Decay), exiled (Oblivion Ring), bounced (Capsize), or stolen (Confiscate) really destroys the flavor of hero cards.
Context: we are experimenting with using them in variants beyond the challenge decks.
***EDIT: Pictures of the Hydra Playmat attached!***
Oops, I forgot I had these. They've been sitting in my phone for over a week. The playmat seems to be made of high quality, probably waterproof, paper. I'm guessing that the mat is included with the challenge deck (this was not clarified with the person who let me take these pictures).
I would say this is definitely going to be a pain, especially since one of my favorite cards (Evil Twin) can't be played in a standard, but ... one never knows what could happen if you hit it in a non-STD game.
As Yeef said above me, they'll be released for sale on Gameday. Most stores received two labeled "Not for Resale" that are to be used on Gameday for the actual "Face the Hydra" event.
As someone who has played with and against the Hydra deck already, I'll admit it's super-fun to play with. It unleashes the inner-Timmy of my days as a brand new player back in the original Mirrodin block. Playing against it is a unique, interesting, and a surprisingly fun experience also. I have both lost to it and defeated it.
Heroes and Villains Comics and Games
Watch "The Giant Sharkgate Chronicles"
Watch "Eating Made Easy"
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
EDIT: What happens if the Hydra gets a creature token because of Swan Song, Curse of Swine or a similar effect, can it use those to block?
Dry up, O Sea.
Burn out, O Sun.
Grant us power Earthly Leaders and Gatekeepers of Hell.
Guide us Makers of the Underworld.
I wish they'd release the rules before Game Day so we know what kind of decks we can play against the Hydra.
Don't forget you can use up to 2 Hero cards as well. If you think your specific deck might have trouble with some of the tougher heads, try using The Avenger to kill them with Deathtouch, or The Philospher to keep them tapped (tapped Heads don't damage you, afaik)
Well, since there are no lands in the Hydra deck, a Mind Grind for 1 would end the game instantly. Since I doubt this is the idea of the game, I don't think Mill is a legal strategy.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
4 Dimir Charm
4 Doom Blade
4 Cyclonic Rift
4 Killing Glare
4 Mind Grind
4 Rapid Hybridization
4 Syncopate
8 Island
10 Swamp
2 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
Undercity Informer & Mind Grind here make regrowing heads impossible, since they mill all the remaining heads into the graveyard. You get 8 one mana unconditional removal spells, and 16 two mana unconditional removal spells (half of which can/will be Plague Wind). Also, all 3 of Dimir Charm's modes are relevant here. Finally, Syncopate is a one mana hard counter, since you can choose to have the Hydra not pay 0 when you counter its play for the turn.
With that deck, why not just run Mind Grind for 1? The hydra loses instantly, because the deck has no lands.
My shop is using the following rules:
1. Spells and abilities that target the hydra's library do not work.
2. Hydra heads are unique creatures in that they have no discernable CMC. Their CMC is not 0, it is unknown.
3. You can give the Hydra creature tokens, they do not do anything and cannot attack or block.
4. Heads that are cast are not spells, and cannot be countered. Hydra spells are spells and can be countered.
5. If a head would leave play for any reason, it dies instead. This includes exiling under another creature.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Killing Wave, Condescend, & Twisted Image are more nice ones if you want to leave the Standard format (which also seems to be allowed). The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would also be nuts if it weren't a million dollars.
Because it should, if you somehow manage to convince a single head of a hydra to assist you...
According to the rules, the Hydra only does damage on its turn equal to the number of Heads it controls. Technically, the Hydra (opponent) is the source of damage, not the Head.
Oddly, from the posted rules, you could steal a Head and attack the Hydra (opponent) to redirect the damage to the Head you control ("the Head of your choice").
No - it's mostly about gaming the game
Found on the WPN site. So yes, you can mill the hydra, and no, you can't gain control of the heads. It's easy to destroy the hydra with a specialist deck.
Then you get the satisfaction of winning while having no fun whatsoever. Hope you feel good about it.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."