It amazes me that we live in capitalistic society, but consumers are often dismissed as 'entitled' and 'moochers' and 'want everything handed to them' when expressing an opinion on a company's practices.
It amazes me that we live in capitalistic society, but consumers are often dismissed as 'entitled' and 'moochers' and 'want everything handed to them' when expressing an opinion on a company's practices.
In a Capitalist society you vote with your wallet. The problem comes in when people complain about WotC's decisions *then continue to support them anyway*. You could not look more stupid.
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Whenever someone claims to hate blue I automatically assume they're a bad player.
Standard costs a few hundred. That's a lot, sure, but not even remotely close to the same thing. It's an expensive hobby because it's an expensive hobby - there's absolutely no actual reason for it to be besides greed. It's not like having money makes you more worthy of being a competitive MTG player. Working in the private sector rather than in a non-profit doesn't make you a more competent player. People aren't entitled because they want to play a game that uses little pieces of cardboard. Would video game players be "entitled" if the next console generation cost $500,000 for a console, $10,000 for controllers and $60,000 for games and they complained about it?
If you can't see why your argument is idiotic, there's no help for you.
A few hundred this month. A few hundred next month, even more with rotation and set release.
The standard meta shifts *much* more than legacy, requiring people to buy completely new decks much more frequently, whereas I can sit on my Vintage deck and make minimal tweaks every so often.
And people *are* entitled for wanting to play competitively. You don't want to play Magic, you want to play Magic at the competitive level. Two completely different things. You don't need a playset of Forces and Power to play kitchen table Magic. Any level above that is going to cost you. Don't like it, get the hell out.
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Whenever someone claims to hate blue I automatically assume they're a bad player.
A few hundred this month. A few hundred next month, even more with rotation and set release.
The standard meta shifts *much* more than legacy, requiring people to buy completely new decks much more frequently, whereas I can sit on my Vintage deck and make minimal tweaks every so often.
And people *are* entitled for wanting to play competitively. You don't want to play Magic, you want to play Magic at the competitive level. Two completely different things. You don't need a playset of Forces and Power to play kitchen table Magic. Any level above that is going to cost you. Don't like it, get the hell out.
Or they could fix it and make it so it doesn't cost absurd amounts of money to play a game with painted cardboard. And for the last time, no one is asking for handouts. More rare than mythics in a limited run set with packs selling for $12? They'd cost a fortune still. But that's besides the point. The only possible reason for your stance, besides unbelievable stupidity, is that you're a dick and actually take pleasure in excluding people. Have fun living life that way.
PS: I have absolutely no interest in playing anything beyond Modern. I'm simply a logical, competent individual who understands fairness and cares about other people. You, unfortunately, appear to be none of those things.
In a Capitalist society you vote with your wallet. The problem comes in when people complain about WotC's decisions *then continue to support them anyway*. You could not look more stupid.
The problem with that is that WoTC makes lots of decisions. People generally agree with some and disagree with others.
It's kinda hard to simultaneously support WoTC by spending money and not support them by not spending money.
Time to poke holes in every argument idiots have thrown up.
... I am very correct, yes I am ...
And that brings us to point two, the reserved list. People actually want them to break it? Guess you can never take WotC at their word again. When a company promises something, I expect them to keep it. Otherwise *every single person* who owns an expensive card is screwed over.
Anyone who disagrees with me is just an entitled crybaby.
I am only replying to the bolded part, so I just paraphrased the rest.
Did you know that Clone is protected by the Reserved List? And yet it was reprinted in Onslaught, it was reprinted in 9th Edition, 10th Edition, Magic 2010, Magic 2011, 2013, and DD:VvsK. How can anyone trust Wizards when they broke their sacred pact with card hoarders around the world?
Rather than being good losers, the collectors threw a big tantrum, someone threatened to sue Wizards (I am led to believe) and as a result, Wizards had to backpedal. Who is really acting entitled here?
As far as "underestimating" the number of people who love the Reserve List, the only data we have suggests the Reserve List supporters are vastly outnumbered by the people who want to play real Magic, but balk at paying thousands of dollars for an admission fee.
Or they could fix it and make it so it doesn't cost absurd amounts of money to play a game with painted cardboard. And for the last time, no one is asking for handouts. More rare than mythics in a limited run set with packs selling for $12? They'd cost a fortune still. But that's besides the point. The only possible reason for your stance, besides unbelievable stupidity, is that you're a dick and actually take pleasure in excluding people. Have fun living life that way.
PS: I have absolutely no interest in playing anything beyond Modern. I'm simply a logical, competent individual who understands fairness and cares about other people. You, unfortunately, appear to be none of those things.
Ahaha you view the system as broken, that's cute. I enjoy the multiple "tiers" (as it were) of Magic. It's nice to people to play almost exclusively with peers (I.E. people of the same skill level). Makes it more fun for me.
But if you think one's opinion on MTG (Of all things) qualifies one as a "competent person", then you are nothing that you seem to think you are.
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Whenever someone claims to hate blue I automatically assume they're a bad player.
Can we please stop feeding the Funkalunk troll? He obviously sees himself as far superior to any other poster based on his condescending tone and will never see that he's wrong when it comes to various points. Just let him has his day and move on.
Interesting concept. Has Wotc found a way to circumvent the RL? Looks as if Wotc could be making Vintage an on line format. Maybe they will have Legacy follow suit. At least it gives those who wish to play the formats, an option to play.
I own an actual Black Lotus that I paid over a grand for and I whole heartedly support reprinting Power Nine so that they are affordable to newer players. I don't care if I lose money on it if everyone else gets a chance to enjoy it. Is that me feeling entitled to cheap Power Nine too?
Capitalism arguments are stupid and I would be all for a system where new players could also afford to play at the same level as me, even if it meant my collection lost a significant portion of its value. Not everyone wants cheap cards for themselves because they can't afford it; I personally want cheap cards so there are more skilled players able to challenge me on even footing.
I own multiple pieces of power, and even paid 350$ for a Ruby recently. I fully support reprinting of Power because I want more people to play the awesome format I enjoy.
The other thing I think people are missing is that they assume the price will crash. However, let's consider the two following options:
1.) They reprint Power and it's like Modern Masters, the super rare cards didn't plummet in value, if anything they went up in some cases as more people got into the format. Vintage right now has minimal demand for its staple cards, aside from the ones that cross over with Legacy, so imagine if tomorrow Vintage Masters hits paper edition and tons of new players realise it's an awesome format. You'd still have stupidly expensive Power 9, it might not be as high, but I'm sure the originals would maintain value whereas the new printings would only be slightly cheaper if that.
2.) They reprint Power and it's like Xiahou Dun, the One-eyed, the judge promo is only like 25$ but the original printing still maintains a good 120$ price tag where it was originally around 150$. Sure, there was a drop, but it still held its value for the most part, and really it is mostly a collector item, as are the Power 9, so there will probably be price stability in the originals in comparison to the new printings.
All and all, if there was a reprinting of the cards, I doubt they'd just throw them in a cheap set and let the price plummet hard, they'd probably find a way to maintain the value of the originals while allowing people to continue playing and enjoying the awesome Vintage format. Believing otherwise is to ignore tons of data we have from Modern Masters and various Judge Promos.
Classic is vintage lite on modo but more powerful than legacy. You could call classic type 1.25 or something if the lower the number the more powerful the format. Only reason vintage doesn't exist on modo is because the power 9 define vintage more than any other card.
Alpha and beta printings of reserved list cards go up if the list is abolished and the cards reprinted. And no, I'm not joking about this. There's a reason NM alpha birds of paradise costs 500 dollars in NM condition on SCG as well as others like shivan dragon. More alpha copies of power will NEVER be added to the market short of fakes entering, which are just that, fake.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
This is awesome news! I hope this sparks some interest in paper Vintage.
Has anyone noticed that the P9 will be ultra mythics/rare. Since they are slotted in where a foil would show up. How often do foils appear in online boosters?
Modern Masters and PTK reprints in casual and FTV product has come to show us that the boogeyman of the valuable collection's price crash is false and that neither true collectors nor WotC would not be at a loss in abolishing the resserved list.
It's pretty obvious if they don't, that the interests behind it are different, most probably SCG's and stock holders' not wanting a single cent to come out from their sheckel vaults.
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
Even if they did something like this irl there is a chance that it would not devalue the original printings. People who play Magic value the bling factor of the cards they use. Reprints do not mean card prices automatically go down and we've seen plenty of examples of this recently. Tarmogoyfs actually shot up when MMA was printed. A foil thoughtseize from Theros is not even worth a regular original printing. from Lorwyn. In this game there is a premium for the more desired version of a card. Nobody actually knows what would happen (just like in real life financial markets) but I want to throw the idea out there that reprints might have the possibility of not effecting prices of originals or might actually make them worth a little more.
Has anyone noticed that the P9 will be ultra mythics/rare. Since they are slotted in where a foil would show up. How often do foils appear in online boosters?
There is a foil or power 9 in every pack. So your answer would be 1 foil per 1 pack for this set.
You mean adults whining about wanting to play a game on a level playing field without spending thousands of dollars?
Actually, yes, I do. You don't have a right to "play a game on a level playing field without spending thousands of dollars", in the sense you're using it here, if it means hurting the company that produces the game. Magic is not an essential item. It is a luxury. If you can't afford Vintage, then you can't afford Vintage and that's that. You can't afford a Ferrari, you can't afford going to those multimillion Poker tournaments, you can't afford many things in the world.
Not being able to afford one (1) format that you want to play, in a game with a multitude of formats -- a game, mind you, that already is unaffordable to many middle-class people in its competitive form (but you can afford those parts of it, so screw them, right?) -- is not a grand injustice that Wizards has to forfeit their self-interest as a company to remedy.
It amazes me that we live in capitalistic society, but consumers are often dismissed as 'entitled' and 'moochers' and 'want everything handed to them' when expressing an opinion on a company's practices.
There is a difference between "man, I sure wish this company would reprint the Power Nine" and "god why don't those greedy bastards reprint the P9 so a Nice Player like me can play along those rich jerks???"
The problem with that is that WoTC makes lots of decisions. People generally agree with some and disagree with others.
There is a difference between talking about Wizards's bad business decisions, talking about decisions you personally don't like and getting all "but I waaaaant to play Vintage!" It is like the dual land talk all over again. As a player, I would love duals at uncommon -- that is where they belong according to every standard MaRo gave for rarity --, but it is better for Wizards if they put them at rare so the sets sell more.
Now, of course, I'm not sure if not reprinting the Power Nine is a bad business decision, and that is an interesting discussion to have, but that sure isn't the aspect the adults whining over the sheer injustice of a piece of cardboard being inaccessible to them are whining about.
I own an actual Black Lotus that I paid over a grand for and I whole heartedly support reprinting Power Nine so that they are affordable to newer players. I don't care if I lose money on it if everyone else gets a chance to enjoy it. Is that me feeling entitled to cheap Power Nine too?
Capitalism arguments are stupid and I would be all for a system where new players could also afford to play at the same level as me, even if it meant my collection lost a significant portion of its value. Not everyone wants cheap cards for themselves because they can't afford it; I personally want cheap cards so there are more skilled players able to challenge me on even footing.
That is cool. If you can get everyone who owns Power to agree on this, then you can send this to Wizards and maybe they will shift their stance on reprinting Power. Keep in mind that Wizards has broken many rules and did plenty of obvious cash grabs (mythic rares, for one), but since they resolved to adhere firmly to the Reserved List, they never broke that. There must be a reason.
If people want to own the power 9, now they can own a digital copy. Problem solved.
As for a paper reprint, I doubt it would spark interest in Vintage because you can already play Vintage with proxies (at least in the U.S.). This means that you can probably play Vintage with a deck that is cheaper than a Legacy deck. If you don't play Vintage now when you can just proxy up the Power cards, then I doubt you would play if they reprinted them. I have played Vintage for years, and price was never the issue because of proxies (prior to the SCG series, duals weren't that expensive). Rather, the issue revolved around playing in a format that people saw as too complex. I even offered to loan people decks, and only a single person accepted in the last 8 years. Reprinting the cards will not solve this issue.
Were they requires to give out $30+ dollar cards (or $100+ in the case of FoW)? No. They gave out cards to players that were worth a fair amount. If you don't think they are doing anything for players you are beyond stupid.
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If you want to get technical about it, they aren't giving these away for free. You still have to pay to get the chance to earn the points. I certainly haven't gotten any duals or FoWs for free from MTGO. I've watched my friend throw tons of money (more than would have been needed to just buy the cards) for those points. So they aren't really free in that sense. Besides, they seem to be alternating between really good and really ****ty. I mean my friend just missed FoW but was able to get that Cryptborn Horror! Huzzah!
I'm rather surprised at all the negative comments in this thread. If you're not interested in Vintage or don't have the means to buy the packs or singles from this set, the set is easily ignored. It's an extremely unessential product for most, but a welcome addition for a few of us.
I'm rather surprised at all the negative comments in this thread. If you're not interested in Vintage or don't have the means to buy the packs or singles from this set, the set is easily ignored. It's an extremely unessential product for most, but a welcome addition for a few of us.
It's negative because Wizards found a way to print money.
However, whether a fish wants to bite is up to it.
WOTC will eventually go all-digital just so it can cut all the retailers out of the loop and keep a bigger portion of the profits themselves.
Not for many moons, Kemosabe. As things are now, no one (NO ONE, I tell you!) would ever use MTGO without playing paper extensively first.
People don't play MTGO because of the UI, they play MTGO in spite of the UI, because it's a game they already love. Unless Wizards can make a UI for MTGO that is... well, I don't have words for the kind of magic (heh) they would need to peform to end up with a digital product capable of replacing paper Magic entirely.
That's not to say some penny-licker in the bowels of Wizards isn't thinking along the lines you describe; only that it's unrealistic.
In a Capitalist society you vote with your wallet. The problem comes in when people complain about WotC's decisions *then continue to support them anyway*. You could not look more stupid.
A few hundred this month. A few hundred next month, even more with rotation and set release.
The standard meta shifts *much* more than legacy, requiring people to buy completely new decks much more frequently, whereas I can sit on my Vintage deck and make minimal tweaks every so often.
And people *are* entitled for wanting to play competitively. You don't want to play Magic, you want to play Magic at the competitive level. Two completely different things. You don't need a playset of Forces and Power to play kitchen table Magic. Any level above that is going to cost you. Don't like it, get the hell out.
Or they could fix it and make it so it doesn't cost absurd amounts of money to play a game with painted cardboard. And for the last time, no one is asking for handouts. More rare than mythics in a limited run set with packs selling for $12? They'd cost a fortune still. But that's besides the point. The only possible reason for your stance, besides unbelievable stupidity, is that you're a dick and actually take pleasure in excluding people. Have fun living life that way.
PS: I have absolutely no interest in playing anything beyond Modern. I'm simply a logical, competent individual who understands fairness and cares about other people. You, unfortunately, appear to be none of those things.
The problem with that is that WoTC makes lots of decisions. People generally agree with some and disagree with others.
It's kinda hard to simultaneously support WoTC by spending money and not support them by not spending money.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I am only replying to the bolded part, so I just paraphrased the rest.
Did you know that Clone is protected by the Reserved List? And yet it was reprinted in Onslaught, it was reprinted in 9th Edition, 10th Edition, Magic 2010, Magic 2011, 2013, and DD:VvsK. How can anyone trust Wizards when they broke their sacred pact with card hoarders around the world?
Well, it's very simple. Wizards put the question of "Should we change the Reprint policy?" to a vote and the card hoarders lost.
As a result, Clone got its price deflated and casual games everywhere are more fun.
Rather than being good losers, the collectors threw a big tantrum, someone threatened to sue Wizards (I am led to believe) and as a result, Wizards had to backpedal. Who is really acting entitled here?
As far as "underestimating" the number of people who love the Reserve List, the only data we have suggests the Reserve List supporters are vastly outnumbered by the people who want to play real Magic, but balk at paying thousands of dollars for an admission fee.
Oh, had to hit this note, too:
Hint: A meme is not just a picture with a caption in Impact font
Ahaha you view the system as broken, that's cute. I enjoy the multiple "tiers" (as it were) of Magic. It's nice to people to play almost exclusively with peers (I.E. people of the same skill level). Makes it more fun for me.
But if you think one's opinion on MTG (Of all things) qualifies one as a "competent person", then you are nothing that you seem to think you are.
I doubt this means anything for paper.
I own multiple pieces of power, and even paid 350$ for a Ruby recently. I fully support reprinting of Power because I want more people to play the awesome format I enjoy.
The other thing I think people are missing is that they assume the price will crash. However, let's consider the two following options:
1.) They reprint Power and it's like Modern Masters, the super rare cards didn't plummet in value, if anything they went up in some cases as more people got into the format. Vintage right now has minimal demand for its staple cards, aside from the ones that cross over with Legacy, so imagine if tomorrow Vintage Masters hits paper edition and tons of new players realise it's an awesome format. You'd still have stupidly expensive Power 9, it might not be as high, but I'm sure the originals would maintain value whereas the new printings would only be slightly cheaper if that.
2.) They reprint Power and it's like Xiahou Dun, the One-eyed, the judge promo is only like 25$ but the original printing still maintains a good 120$ price tag where it was originally around 150$. Sure, there was a drop, but it still held its value for the most part, and really it is mostly a collector item, as are the Power 9, so there will probably be price stability in the originals in comparison to the new printings.
All and all, if there was a reprinting of the cards, I doubt they'd just throw them in a cheap set and let the price plummet hard, they'd probably find a way to maintain the value of the originals while allowing people to continue playing and enjoying the awesome Vintage format. Believing otherwise is to ignore tons of data we have from Modern Masters and various Judge Promos.
Classic is like Vintage, except there's no Power 9. I think a few other key cards are missing too.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
I meant more "There will not be a need for Vintage as a separate format online, because Classic Exists" than "The formats are currently identical."
Alpha and beta printings of reserved list cards go up if the list is abolished and the cards reprinted. And no, I'm not joking about this. There's a reason NM alpha birds of paradise costs 500 dollars in NM condition on SCG as well as others like shivan dragon. More alpha copies of power will NEVER be added to the market short of fakes entering, which are just that, fake.
Currently Playing:
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Has anyone noticed that the P9 will be ultra mythics/rare. Since they are slotted in where a foil would show up. How often do foils appear in online boosters?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
It's pretty obvious if they don't, that the interests behind it are different, most probably SCG's and stock holders' not wanting a single cent to come out from their sheckel vaults.
There is a foil or power 9 in every pack. So your answer would be 1 foil per 1 pack for this set.
Not being able to afford one (1) format that you want to play, in a game with a multitude of formats -- a game, mind you, that already is unaffordable to many middle-class people in its competitive form (but you can afford those parts of it, so screw them, right?) -- is not a grand injustice that Wizards has to forfeit their self-interest as a company to remedy.
There is a difference between "man, I sure wish this company would reprint the Power Nine" and "god why don't those greedy bastards reprint the P9 so a Nice Player like me can play along those rich jerks???"
There is a difference between talking about Wizards's bad business decisions, talking about decisions you personally don't like and getting all "but I waaaaant to play Vintage!" It is like the dual land talk all over again. As a player, I would love duals at uncommon -- that is where they belong according to every standard MaRo gave for rarity --, but it is better for Wizards if they put them at rare so the sets sell more.
Now, of course, I'm not sure if not reprinting the Power Nine is a bad business decision, and that is an interesting discussion to have, but that sure isn't the aspect the adults whining over the sheer injustice of a piece of cardboard being inaccessible to them are whining about.
That is cool. If you can get everyone who owns Power to agree on this, then you can send this to Wizards and maybe they will shift their stance on reprinting Power. Keep in mind that Wizards has broken many rules and did plenty of obvious cash grabs (mythic rares, for one), but since they resolved to adhere firmly to the Reserved List, they never broke that. There must be a reason.
As for a paper reprint, I doubt it would spark interest in Vintage because you can already play Vintage with proxies (at least in the U.S.). This means that you can probably play Vintage with a deck that is cheaper than a Legacy deck. If you don't play Vintage now when you can just proxy up the Power cards, then I doubt you would play if they reprinted them. I have played Vintage for years, and price was never the issue because of proxies (prior to the SCG series, duals weren't that expensive). Rather, the issue revolved around playing in a format that people saw as too complex. I even offered to loan people decks, and only a single person accepted in the last 8 years. Reprinting the cards will not solve this issue.
If you want to get technical about it, they aren't giving these away for free. You still have to pay to get the chance to earn the points. I certainly haven't gotten any duals or FoWs for free from MTGO. I've watched my friend throw tons of money (more than would have been needed to just buy the cards) for those points. So they aren't really free in that sense. Besides, they seem to be alternating between really good and really ****ty. I mean my friend just missed FoW but was able to get that Cryptborn Horror! Huzzah!
It's negative because Wizards found a way to print money.
However, whether a fish wants to bite is up to it.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Not for many moons, Kemosabe. As things are now, no one (NO ONE, I tell you!) would ever use MTGO without playing paper extensively first.
People don't play MTGO because of the UI, they play MTGO in spite of the UI, because it's a game they already love. Unless Wizards can make a UI for MTGO that is... well, I don't have words for the kind of magic (heh) they would need to peform to end up with a digital product capable of replacing paper Magic entirely.
That's not to say some penny-licker in the bowels of Wizards isn't thinking along the lines you describe; only that it's unrealistic.
I was wrong, it will be MTGO that ensures Vintage has a future.