People really dont see how broken it is without the errata?
I hope they do see how busted it is without it. Without errata I immediately saw (as discussed earlier in the thread):
T3: Marath
T4: Purphoros
GG due to infinite 0/0 elementals killing all of your opponents, and could happen earlier with fast mana. That is only one of many busted combos without errata.
I bet they left "x can't be 0" off on purpose. "It doesn't fit, so just issue a pre-errata. Won't come up often anyhow."
The card wouldn't have been possible with "x can't be 0" on there. To have it do what it does, they needed to use the entire card. The text box is already stuffed, and the text size is tiny.
I bet they left "x can't be 0" off on purpose. "It doesn't fit, so just issue a pre-errata. Won't come up often anyhow."
The card wouldn't have been possible with "x can't be 0" on there. To have it do what it does, they needed to use the entire card. The text box is already stuffed, and the text size is tiny.
Well they actual could cut X entirely and simply use an activation of 1 to put a 1/1 token into play instead of an X/X one (i mean you can just put a 1/1 in play, and put +1/+1 counters on that token, is the same result mostly).
Then you had to use it multiple times, but its the exactly same result.
It seems to me that it was an activation of 1 first, then someone changed it to X and missed the "X=0" part, which they later added as an errata, which just messes up the card.
Well they actual could cut X entirely and simply use an activation of 1 to put a 1/1 token into play instead of an X/X one (i mean you can just put a 1/1 in play, and put +1/+1 counters on that token, is the same result mostly).
Then you had to use it multiple times, but its the exactly same result.
It seems to me that it was an activation of 1 first, then someone changed it to X and missed the "X=0" part, which they later added as an errata, which just messes up the card.
If you do it that way, it weakens the interaction with populate.
I am working on a nya edh that deals with the power of 5. I might not use this card but the deck that come with it will come with many goodies I can use for it
You might get them to agree to that once... then after they instantly lose to any of a variety of very common effects, they won't agree anymore.
Without the errata, this card is just unusable. Any game it's in is instantly broken.
This is representative of the last bunch of posts where people express the sentiment that "Combos are Bad." Not everyone agrees. And remember, we already have infinite combo generals like Sharuum that get played all the time, and very fast kill generals like Varaloz or that-one-shroudy-gets-bigger-with-auras-dude-whose-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment. This ain't any different.
"But I get to draw infinite cards if I resolve him with a combo piece out!" Yeah, you sure do. And your opponents presumably will prepare themselves with countermagic or spot removal to interrupt you. It's EDH. In a three or four player game, you're going to get it from both ends when you run a general like Zur or something. The world remains in balance.
Besides that, if someone gets off an infinite combo in EDH, then you get to finish the game and play another! That's way better than grindy decks which just wipe the board and drag things out repeatedly, or creature stalls where nothing is happening. Win, shuffle up, repeat.
Of course, this is all superfluous because the general has had his manhood removed by errata anyway. So just don't play with a "textualist" house rule if you don't like real Magic.
This is representative of the last bunch of posts where people express the sentiment that "Combos are Bad." Not everyone agrees. And remember, we already have infinite combo generals like Sharuum that get played all the time, and very fast kill generals like Varaloz or that-one-shroudy-gets-bigger-with-auras-dude-whose-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment. This ain't any different.
"But I get to draw infinite cards if I resolve him with a combo piece out!" Yeah, you sure do. And your opponents presumably will prepare themselves with countermagic or spot removal to interrupt you. It's EDH. In a three or four player game, you're going to get it from both ends when you run a general like Zur or something. The world remains in balance.
Besides that, if someone gets off an infinite combo in EDH, then you get to finish the game and play another! That's way better than grindy decks which just wipe the board and drag things out repeatedly, or creature stalls where nothing is happening. Win, shuffle up, repeat.
Of course, this is all superfluous because the general has had his manhood removed by errata anyway. So just don't play with a "textualist" house rule if you don't like real Magic.
Counter magic isn't very effective against a general. If someone builds a 100 card deck around abusing X=0 on this game I can guarantee you that he will never lose a single EDH game, ever.
This is representative of the last bunch of posts where people express the sentiment that "Combos are Bad." Not everyone agrees. And remember, we already have infinite combo generals like Sharuum that get played all the time, and very fast kill generals like Varaloz or that-one-shroudy-gets-bigger-with-auras-dude-whose-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment. This ain't any different.
Um, yes, it is. Sharuum isn't part of any two-card combos. All of the Sharuum combos involve Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph and a card to ACTUALLY COMBO WITH (Bitter Ordeal, Glassdust Hulk, Glaze Fiend). And all of those are cards you're only playing to combo with--they're pretty awful otherwise. Marath as written is a 2-card combo with any anthem effect or anything that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield. Purphoros and Eldrazi Monument are only the most obvious offenders.
If you think you're playing "real Magic" by comboing an EDH table before turn 4, be my guest. See how many people are excited to play with you.
This is representative of the last bunch of posts where people express the sentiment that "Combos are Bad." Not everyone agrees. And remember, we already have infinite combo generals like Sharuum that get played all the time, and very fast kill generals like Varaloz or that-one-shroudy-gets-bigger-with-auras-dude-whose-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment. This ain't any different.
"But I get to draw infinite cards if I resolve him with a combo piece out!" Yeah, you sure do. And your opponents presumably will prepare themselves with countermagic or spot removal to interrupt you. It's EDH. In a three or four player game, you're going to get it from both ends when you run a general like Zur or something. The world remains in balance.
Besides that, if someone gets off an infinite combo in EDH, then you get to finish the game and play another! That's way better than grindy decks which just wipe the board and drag things out repeatedly, or creature stalls where nothing is happening. Win, shuffle up, repeat.
Of course, this is all superfluous because the general has had his manhood removed by errata anyway. So just don't play with a "textualist" house rule if you don't like real Magic.
The problem for Marath without errata is, its abilities are all instant speed. How do you remove it? Spot removal like plowshares?
The Marath player can just stack Marath's (x=0) trigger again on top of your plowshares and never let the plowshare resolve until the infinite is done. That alone makes it a lot harder to break the combo than the notorious combo commander Sharuum. This is why the errata is needed, at least there are some checks made to it.
With the errata Marath is still strong like hell, I can tell you that. My friends who played against Marath are already tagging it as a high threat commander.
If only WotC had not screwed this up, I wouldn't have read this delightful disagreement...
I'm definitely in complete agreement with one side, but nobody is winning the other(s) over, and since I won't play with any of you, I won't debate (this time).
What I will say is that from now on, I'm going to have a house rule that every card says, "Zurcamos wins," and nothing else. Now, we're talking "real magic," huh? Who cares what WotC does or doesn't print on the card? Who cares about YOUR fun? Anyone want in? Anyone? No?
Tap the elf for mana => remove 1 counter from Marath => put a token 1/1 (all creatures receive a +1/+1 counter, including Marath and the elf) => Put a -1/-1 counter on the elf, untapping him and canceling both counters => with the untapped elf, tap it for mana and remove a counter from Marath => ??? => profit!!
The problem for Marath without errata is, its abilities are all instant speed. How do you remove it? Spot removal like plowshares?
The Marath player can just stack Marath's (x=0) trigger again on top of your plowshares and never let the plowshare resolve until the infinite is done. That alone makes it a lot harder to break the combo than the notorious combo commander Sharuum. This is why the errata is needed, at least there are some checks made to it.
With the errata Marath is still strong like hell, I can tell you that. My friends who played against Marath are already tagging it as a high threat commander.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting you remove the Marath. I was suggesting you remove whatever is comboing with it. They cast Marath, and if you can't counter, you just nuke the Soul Warden or whatever is going to combo with it.
He's fine with the errata, don't get me wrong, but he's also fine without it. Wizard's mistakes end up being the most exciting cards in the game. (Here's lookin' at you, Yawgmoth's Will!)
What I will say is that from now on, I'm going to have a house rule that every card says, "Zurcamos wins," and nothing else. Now, we're talking "real magic," huh? Who cares what WotC does or doesn't print on the card? Who cares about YOUR fun? Anyone want in? Anyone? No?
I dunno what you mean, but having a house rule that card simply do what they say is hardly the same just flat-out re-writing the cards yourself.
And, if you're saying Wizards should not print cards that win the game on the spot... they did. Door to Nothingness.
And, even though the phrase "you win the game" does not appear on the card, Wizards essentially printed that on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Grislebrand, Omniscence, and Enter the Infinite. All of these cards win the game almost immediately absent narrow shenanigans. (And some are banned in Commander, yes, it's true)
none of these cards cost three and half of them were still banned. very good example that told us exactly how much an unerrataed marat would be healthy for the format
No one, least of all me, is denying that Marat would be an exceedingly powerful combo general. We just disagree on what "healthy for the format" means. It's a casual format, but some people think that means "let me play my bombs and swing" and some people think that means "find creative ways to break cards that don't make it in competitive formats." I'm the latter. But it's not a big deal, because if your play group groans about certain decks, you just pull out a different one. It's a casual format, after all.
All we know for sure is the text was left off the card. It's unconfirmed if it was a typo or an oversight. Until we see the leaked design file, or get direct confirmation, we can't be sure.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
I hope they do see how busted it is without it. Without errata I immediately saw (as discussed earlier in the thread):
T3: Marath
T4: Purphoros
GG due to infinite 0/0 elementals killing all of your opponents, and could happen earlier with fast mana. That is only one of many busted combos without errata.
R&D's Secret Lair obvious combo.
The card wouldn't have been possible with "x can't be 0" on there. To have it do what it does, they needed to use the entire card. The text box is already stuffed, and the text size is tiny.
.
Well they actual could cut X entirely and simply use an activation of 1 to put a 1/1 token into play instead of an X/X one (i mean you can just put a 1/1 in play, and put +1/+1 counters on that token, is the same result mostly).
Then you had to use it multiple times, but its the exactly same result.
It seems to me that it was an activation of 1 first, then someone changed it to X and missed the "X=0" part, which they later added as an errata, which just messes up the card.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
If you do it that way, it weakens the interaction with populate.
Seems like pointless stubborness to me.
You might get them to agree to that once... then after they instantly lose to any of a variety of very common effects, they won't agree anymore.
Without the errata, this card is just unusable. Any game it's in is instantly broken.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
This is representative of the last bunch of posts where people express the sentiment that "Combos are Bad." Not everyone agrees. And remember, we already have infinite combo generals like Sharuum that get played all the time, and very fast kill generals like Varaloz or that-one-shroudy-gets-bigger-with-auras-dude-whose-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment. This ain't any different.
"But I get to draw infinite cards if I resolve him with a combo piece out!" Yeah, you sure do. And your opponents presumably will prepare themselves with countermagic or spot removal to interrupt you. It's EDH. In a three or four player game, you're going to get it from both ends when you run a general like Zur or something. The world remains in balance.
Besides that, if someone gets off an infinite combo in EDH, then you get to finish the game and play another! That's way better than grindy decks which just wipe the board and drag things out repeatedly, or creature stalls where nothing is happening. Win, shuffle up, repeat.
Of course, this is all superfluous because the general has had his manhood removed by errata anyway. So just don't play with a "textualist" house rule if you don't like real Magic.
Counter magic isn't very effective against a general. If someone builds a 100 card deck around abusing X=0 on this game I can guarantee you that he will never lose a single EDH game, ever.
Um, yes, it is. Sharuum isn't part of any two-card combos. All of the Sharuum combos involve Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph and a card to ACTUALLY COMBO WITH (Bitter Ordeal, Glassdust Hulk, Glaze Fiend). And all of those are cards you're only playing to combo with--they're pretty awful otherwise. Marath as written is a 2-card combo with any anthem effect or anything that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield. Purphoros and Eldrazi Monument are only the most obvious offenders.
If you think you're playing "real Magic" by comboing an EDH table before turn 4, be my guest. See how many people are excited to play with you.
Standard: W/R Aggro
The problem for Marath without errata is, its abilities are all instant speed. How do you remove it? Spot removal like plowshares?
The Marath player can just stack Marath's (x=0) trigger again on top of your plowshares and never let the plowshare resolve until the infinite is done. That alone makes it a lot harder to break the combo than the notorious combo commander Sharuum. This is why the errata is needed, at least there are some checks made to it.
With the errata Marath is still strong like hell, I can tell you that. My friends who played against Marath are already tagging it as a high threat commander.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I'm definitely in complete agreement with one side, but nobody is winning the other(s) over, and since I won't play with any of you, I won't debate (this time).
What I will say is that from now on, I'm going to have a house rule that every card says, "Zurcamos wins," and nothing else. Now, we're talking "real magic," huh? Who cares what WotC does or doesn't print on the card? Who cares about YOUR fun? Anyone want in? Anyone? No?
Hmmm, I don't get it.
Tap the elf for mana => remove 1 counter from Marath => put a token 1/1 (all creatures receive a +1/+1 counter, including Marath and the elf) => Put a -1/-1 counter on the elf, untapping him and canceling both counters => with the untapped elf, tap it for mana and remove a counter from Marath => ??? => profit!!
Oh, I wasn't suggesting you remove the Marath. I was suggesting you remove whatever is comboing with it. They cast Marath, and if you can't counter, you just nuke the Soul Warden or whatever is going to combo with it.
He's fine with the errata, don't get me wrong, but he's also fine without it. Wizard's mistakes end up being the most exciting cards in the game. (Here's lookin' at you, Yawgmoth's Will!)
I dunno what you mean, but having a house rule that card simply do what they say is hardly the same just flat-out re-writing the cards yourself.
And, if you're saying Wizards should not print cards that win the game on the spot... they did. Door to Nothingness.
And, even though the phrase "you win the game" does not appear on the card, Wizards essentially printed that on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Grislebrand, Omniscence, and Enter the Infinite. All of these cards win the game almost immediately absent narrow shenanigans. (And some are banned in Commander, yes, it's true)
Actually, I play Vintage weekly, and Legacy very occasionally. That might put my comments in context.
No one, least of all me, is denying that Marat would be an exceedingly powerful combo general. We just disagree on what "healthy for the format" means. It's a casual format, but some people think that means "let me play my bombs and swing" and some people think that means "find creative ways to break cards that don't make it in competitive formats." I'm the latter. But it's not a big deal, because if your play group groans about certain decks, you just pull out a different one. It's a casual format, after all.
It's also not very well made if it already needs errata.
It was a typo, not a mechanical oversight.
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All we know for sure is the text was left off the card. It's unconfirmed if it was a typo or an oversight. Until we see the leaked design file, or get direct confirmation, we can't be sure.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Ah come on, they have been on top of their game for the last years, I don't even remember the last card to have required an errata before this one.