the funny thing about saying something is ''Format Warping in Vintage'', is that it's really impossible to know without playtesting. I mean either it's incredibly disgusting or it's not, but for now it still looks a mildly better Darksteel Myr in regards to VINTAGE.
Vintage and Legacy are different animals. There is no doubt in my mind that this card will ''get played'' in Legacy, but they make Legacy Playables every year, almost every set. Merfolk and Vial are real things to say and all.
I don't know how to evaluate the idea that Devotion is Vintage Playable that sounds absurd to me, but one thing I do know about Vintage, is that everything good in Vintage sounds absurd to me, so I'm saying that EITHER this thing just isn't good enough for Vintage at all because I don't think Blue Creatures are good enough for Vintage, OR, maybe I'll have to eat All The Crow and we will legit see Thassa, God of the Sea making waves and taking names in Vintage, and running out of names.
I think Legacy is better positioned to FIGHT this card though than Vintage-- it's a slower format by like a turn or 3, so it's definitely possible to bring out Wrath of God against it if you weirdly really really have to. I'm not completely sure if Wrath of God is Vintage playable or not because it looks like a case of 'yeah, I could really use that, but can't cast it fast enough, I stick with 1x Balance and hope that's alright.'
I might just be letting my ignorance show. Wrath of God is great. Its use is obvious. It just seems comparatively slow for Vintage, even given those artifacts, because you can in fact run Balance instead, or Moat.
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
I can see myself facing this and starting to think what the *** would I do against it. Need to run a full set of LotV if this becomes a thing in Legacy which it will, not only in Merfolk but in various decks this will fit in running Blue.
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent! Recess is over, go back and learn sex-ed with the other 6th graders.
1) SMFcorp has spoiled real cards in the past.
2) The first Commander sets contained Scavenging Ooze and Flusterstorm, cards that were OBVIOUSLY better suited for other formats.
True, but flusterstorm and scavenging ooze were pretty much normal cards that could be released in any set. This card has more of a weird, multiplayer-only sort of mechanic. It would be like if one of the join forces cards became legacy playable.
Not that I'm saying it's fake, I'm sure it's not. It's just sort of weird. It might leave a bad taste in my mouth if I played legacy.
Anyone else think it's silly that this is a card that's designed for a multiplayer expansion, and is significantly weaker in multiplayer games?
Silly as in Ironic, maybe, not silly as in Bad Design. IT is also Significantly More Interesting in Multiplayer games.
It becomes kind of like an Avenger that specifically hates one player at the table, as opposed to a "Progenitus Shark" (sleeker body, slimmer mana cost).
I like it more in Multiplayer than 1v1 Vintage, because if it is playable in Vintage, that means buh-rok-uhn lolz.
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
it is basically 3 damage per turn starting turn 4 and that is not good enough to dominate legacy.
And all the arguments about it carrying swords or jitte.. swords are way too slow in legacy.
Even if you found a deck to play it with Stoneforge Mystic you would have to spend turn 2 for Mystic, turn 3 to cast this, turn 4 to get jitte or swords in play and you can't even equip the swords until turn 5.
It'll be more than 3 damage a turn due to how many lords merfolk runs. Turn 4 you could equip and swing with it. If swords were way too slow in legacy, you wouldn't see them as 1 ofs in the main or in sideboards.
And all the arguments about it carrying swords or jitte.. swords are way too slow in legacy.
Jitte sees tons of play. Equips in general are perfectly playable, especially when paired with the least interactive creature of all time. This guy actively makes you want to run even more equipments.
Even if you found a deck to play it with Stoneforge Mystic you would have to spend turn 2 for Mystic, turn 3 to cast this, turn 4 to get jitte or swords in play and you can't even equip the swords until turn 5.
it is basically 3 damage per turn starting turn 4 and that is not good enough to dominate legacy.
And all the arguments about it carrying swords or jitte.. swords are way too slow in legacy.
Even if you found a deck to play it with Stoneforge Mystic you would have to spend turn 2 for Mystic, turn 3 to cast this, turn 4 to get jitte or swords in play and you can't even equip the swords until turn 5.
You would likely use mystic to get the equipment into play and thus could equip either t4, but I can see your point.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Kitsune Riftwalker, Runed Halo, Mistmeadow Skulk, Baneslayer Angel, Seht's Tiger and a half a dozen cards say otherwise. You can justify anything with some incredibly tenuous excuses, but that doesn't make it solid reasoning. You act like Horizon Drake is the only time they have ever used different protections.
My argument is grounded in Wizard's description of the color pie. They have explicitly said that blue gets this type of effect.
My second change was a subtle one. I decided that while I thought it was okay to put protection secondarily in blue, I needed something to make it feel different from white. When I looked through old blue cards with protection I realized that blue has a history of having protection from things other than color. This seemed like a flavorful way to add protection to blue while still keeping white king of protection.
This is when Wizards specifically gave blue this capability, since then MaRo has commented on how they haven't utilized this design space much.
CMoriarty, that's nice and all. But in Vintage, this card makes Jace irrelevant, is a moat against MUD, and opens up a blue devotion deck. This card is too good for vintage, and I can say the same about Legacy. Think about the Blue devotion deck in Legacy with this. Its too good to be real.
How does everyone else not realize that this card is surreal and a fake?
It's boring in commander, but format warping in Legacy and Vintage.
Can you explain how MUD, or any real Worksdhop deck would actually fear this? It still dies to Ratchet Bomb, a well timing Smokestack and a Steel Hellskite activation. All it does is swing for three and block a Lodestone Golem and costs three. I'd really rather have Trygon Predator almost all the time.
As for warping the meta, please explain why a creature that can be countered by Force, Mana Drain, etc, would really warp the already Blue heavy meta?
And making Jace irrrelevant is a farce. Granted, it is a decent weapon vs Jace. It can be something of a proactive solution, but if they have had a Jace active, good luck resolving some three mana durtle.
Sounds a lot like you don't really understand Vintage too well.
In Legacy, this will probably make Merfolk one of the top midrange decks again, although, don't expect any sort of dominance, considering it goes nowhere toward making your truly bad matchups any better.
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"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
This is when Wizards specifically gave blue this capability, since then MaRo has commented on how they haven't utilized this design space much.
Did you even read your own source? It's secondarily in blue, primary in white (which should be obvious from the cards I linked- Runed Halo isn't protection from a color, neither are Elite Inquisitor or Holy Mantle or Soldier of the Pantheon if you want even more recent examples). Blue should not get the flagship protection cards anymore than white should get the flagship ramp cards over green (you know, Knight of the White Orchid or Kor Cartographer effects).
Can you explain how MUD, or any real Worksdhop deck would actually fear this? It still dies to Ratchet Bomb, a well timing Smokestack and a Steel Hellskite activation. All it does is swing for three and block a Lodestone Golem and costs three. I'd really rather have Trygon Predator almost all the time.
As for warping the meta, please explain why a creature that can be countered by Force, Mana Drain, etc, would really warp the already Blue heavy meta?
And making Jace irrrelevant is a farce. Granted, it is a decent weapon vs Jace. It can be something of a proactive solution, but if they have had a Jace active, good luck resolving some three mana durtle.
Sounds a lot like you don't really understand Vintage too well.
In Legacy, this will probably make Merfolk one of the top midrange decks again, although, don't expect any sort of dominance, considering it goes nowhere toward making your truly bad matchups any better.
Ratchet bomb? Seriously? Vintage shops does not run this card very often. It's slow. Shops' usual outs are Duplicant and Triskeleon, which are useless against this dork. The best answer they have is probably Steel Hellkite, which at the moment is typically a one-of in some lists. Shops can adapt, but don't kid yourself - if this guy resolves, shops is in a world of trouble.
And no, it won't warp Vintage. This is what a card that can actually see Vintage play looks like. The power level of the format is such that it will have no trouble absorbing this welcome newcomer.
Did you even read your own source? It's secondarily in blue, primary in white. Blue should not get the flagship protection cards anymore than white should get the flagship ramp cards over green (you know, Knight of the White Orchid or Kor Cartographer effects).
Yes, Blue doesn't get the 2/2 Pro Red creatures, nor does it get a creature with protection every set. Being secondary doesn't mean getting the strictly worse cards with the mechanic. It means that you don't get the mechanic at every rarity nor in every set. Blue's entire protection shtick is that it gets wonky protections, protection from a player is a wonky protection. Was Craterhoof Behemoth being the best haste creature in AVR a color pie problem?
I've never said that white doesn't get protection, only that this card is fully within Blue's color pie.
In Legacy, this will probably make Merfolk one of the top midrange decks again, although, don't expect any sort of dominance, considering it goes nowhere toward making your truly bad matchups any better.
Not only will it be ridiculous in Merfolk, it's also an easy slot into URx delver. UWR delver already does well with geist and this guy is easily competitive with geist. Almost certainly kills goyf in RUG since this guy is basically 500% better than Goyf in every deck that can play him- he's a much, much better wall and will be better on offense too, more often than not.
The only cards that will reliably do well against it are Liliana, Terminus and Supreme Verdict, but two of those are unplayable outside other blue decks anyway, and the only non-blue deck that runs Lili is Jund, not including fringe-tier pet decks in this obviously.
Was Craterhoof Behemoth being the best haste creature in AVR a color pie problem?
Uh, yes. Not to mention this guy is better than every white protection card ever printed, as should be obvious when looking at formats where you have all of them at your disposal- at least Craterhoof doesn't make all red haste cards look like jokes. This is laughable and makes a mockery of color pie balance. It's like printing the best counterspell ever in White thanks to stuff like Lapse of Certainty and Frontline Medic. I'm sure people like you would love that, right?
I mean look at Paladin En-Vec, who is supposed to be "strong" for a white protection creature at 1WW. This guy is so far ahead of Paladin En-Vec he isn't in the same universe.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
This seems really, really dumb for duels, and why the hell does blue get a creature this good? Not to mention possibly the least interactive card ever?
Everything about this design is downright offensive.
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Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
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Vintage and Legacy are different animals. There is no doubt in my mind that this card will ''get played'' in Legacy, but they make Legacy Playables every year, almost every set. Merfolk and Vial are real things to say and all.
I don't know how to evaluate the idea that Devotion is Vintage Playable that sounds absurd to me, but one thing I do know about Vintage, is that everything good in Vintage sounds absurd to me, so I'm saying that EITHER this thing just isn't good enough for Vintage at all because I don't think Blue Creatures are good enough for Vintage, OR, maybe I'll have to eat All The Crow and we will legit see Thassa, God of the Sea making waves and taking names in Vintage, and running out of names.
I think Legacy is better positioned to FIGHT this card though than Vintage-- it's a slower format by like a turn or 3, so it's definitely possible to bring out Wrath of God against it if you weirdly really really have to. I'm not completely sure if Wrath of God is Vintage playable or not because it looks like a case of 'yeah, I could really use that, but can't cast it fast enough, I stick with 1x Balance and hope that's alright.'
I might just be letting my ignorance show. Wrath of God is great. Its use is obvious. It just seems comparatively slow for Vintage, even given those artifacts, because you can in fact run Balance instead, or Moat.
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
True, but flusterstorm and scavenging ooze were pretty much normal cards that could be released in any set. This card has more of a weird, multiplayer-only sort of mechanic. It would be like if one of the join forces cards became legacy playable.
Not that I'm saying it's fake, I'm sure it's not. It's just sort of weird. It might leave a bad taste in my mouth if I played legacy.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Silly as in Ironic, maybe, not silly as in Bad Design. IT is also Significantly More Interesting in Multiplayer games.
It becomes kind of like an Avenger that specifically hates one player at the table, as opposed to a "Progenitus Shark" (sleeker body, slimmer mana cost).
I like it more in Multiplayer than 1v1 Vintage, because if it is playable in Vintage, that means buh-rok-uhn lolz.
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
It'll be more than 3 damage a turn due to how many lords merfolk runs. Turn 4 you could equip and swing with it. If swords were way too slow in legacy, you wouldn't see them as 1 ofs in the main or in sideboards.
Lord of Atlantis, Lord of Atlantis 2, Merrow Reejerey, and Coralhelm Commander might want to speak to you about that.
Jitte sees tons of play. Equips in general are perfectly playable, especially when paired with the least interactive creature of all time. This guy actively makes you want to run even more equipments.
Wrong. Try reading the cards.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
You would likely use mystic to get the equipment into play and thus could equip either t4, but I can see your point.
My argument is grounded in Wizard's description of the color pie. They have explicitly said that blue gets this type of effect.
Keyword Play
This is when Wizards specifically gave blue this capability, since then MaRo has commented on how they haven't utilized this design space much.
I predict good things for this card. Too bad it won't be Modern legal.
I can't wait for it to be reprinted in another format, because it's going to make Tarmogoyf look like a Llanowar Elf in some match ups.
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Can you explain how MUD, or any real Worksdhop deck would actually fear this? It still dies to Ratchet Bomb, a well timing Smokestack and a Steel Hellskite activation. All it does is swing for three and block a Lodestone Golem and costs three. I'd really rather have Trygon Predator almost all the time.
As for warping the meta, please explain why a creature that can be countered by Force, Mana Drain, etc, would really warp the already Blue heavy meta?
And making Jace irrrelevant is a farce. Granted, it is a decent weapon vs Jace. It can be something of a proactive solution, but if they have had a Jace active, good luck resolving some three mana durtle.
Sounds a lot like you don't really understand Vintage too well.
In Legacy, this will probably make Merfolk one of the top midrange decks again, although, don't expect any sort of dominance, considering it goes nowhere toward making your truly bad matchups any better.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Did you even read your own source? It's secondarily in blue, primary in white (which should be obvious from the cards I linked- Runed Halo isn't protection from a color, neither are Elite Inquisitor or Holy Mantle or Soldier of the Pantheon if you want even more recent examples). Blue should not get the flagship protection cards anymore than white should get the flagship ramp cards over green (you know, Knight of the White Orchid or Kor Cartographer effects).
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Ratchet bomb? Seriously? Vintage shops does not run this card very often. It's slow. Shops' usual outs are Duplicant and Triskeleon, which are useless against this dork. The best answer they have is probably Steel Hellkite, which at the moment is typically a one-of in some lists. Shops can adapt, but don't kid yourself - if this guy resolves, shops is in a world of trouble.
And no, it won't warp Vintage. This is what a card that can actually see Vintage play looks like. The power level of the format is such that it will have no trouble absorbing this welcome newcomer.
Yes, Blue doesn't get the 2/2 Pro Red creatures, nor does it get a creature with protection every set. Being secondary doesn't mean getting the strictly worse cards with the mechanic. It means that you don't get the mechanic at every rarity nor in every set. Blue's entire protection shtick is that it gets wonky protections, protection from a player is a wonky protection. Was Craterhoof Behemoth being the best haste creature in AVR a color pie problem?
I've never said that white doesn't get protection, only that this card is fully within Blue's color pie.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Not only will it be ridiculous in Merfolk, it's also an easy slot into URx delver. UWR delver already does well with geist and this guy is easily competitive with geist. Almost certainly kills goyf in RUG since this guy is basically 500% better than Goyf in every deck that can play him- he's a much, much better wall and will be better on offense too, more often than not.
The only cards that will reliably do well against it are Liliana, Terminus and Supreme Verdict, but two of those are unplayable outside other blue decks anyway, and the only non-blue deck that runs Lili is Jund, not including fringe-tier pet decks in this obviously.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Uh, yes. Not to mention this guy is better than every white protection card ever printed, as should be obvious when looking at formats where you have all of them at your disposal- at least Craterhoof doesn't make all red haste cards look like jokes. This is laughable and makes a mockery of color pie balance. It's like printing the best counterspell ever in White thanks to stuff like Lapse of Certainty and Frontline Medic. I'm sure people like you would love that, right?
I mean look at Paladin En-Vec, who is supposed to be "strong" for a white protection creature at 1WW. This guy is so far ahead of Paladin En-Vec he isn't in the same universe.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Cards like this is the reason I don't play legacy anymore.
It is the blue way Or the highway.
Everything about this design is downright offensive.
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