This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
This list really says it all. The amount of hair-splitting excuses here to justify how blue constantly breaks the color pie is hilarious.
Okay, seriously brah! No it doesn't! I countered that list on the other page in detail, but I'll do it here in one sentence.
"Protection from creatures" does not equal "protection from players".
Blue effects "players" far more often with enchants than white, and gets protection. I can list a number of plays which go directly on the player's ability to do stuff. That is where blue plays, now get over yourself.
Just like people "overvalued" Scavenging Ooze when it was spoiled?(note I'm not comparing it to Scooze directly because that is a better card.)
Two words. Aether Vial.
Blue DOES constantly break the color pie, but this isn't one of those cards.
The only deck that would use this, that uses vial is Merfolk. Merfolk will not be broken by this card. A lot of people won't even run it. They like to sit at 2. I personally think it solves so many bad matchups for Merfolk (Punishing Fire...) that it's worth it. But the overreaction to this card is just outrageous. This isn't the next Deathrite Shaman or Delver, it isn't going to be format warping.
The only deck that would use this, that uses vial is Merfolk. Merfolk will not be broken by this card. A lot of people won't even run it. They like to sit at 2. I personally think it solves so many bad matchups for Merfolk (Punishing Fire...) that it's worth it. But the overreaction to this card is just outrageous. This isn't the next Deathrite Shaman or Delver, it isn't going to be format warping.
How does one of the "Fair Decks" beat a resolved one? Just asking a question here. The only one that comes to the top of my mind is LotV.
How does one of the "Fair Decks" beat a resolved one? Just asking a question here. The only one that comes to the top of my mind is LotV.
Goblins just says "okay" and swings Alpha with Piledriver. The Delver decks continue to hit you in the air and burn you to the face and their Goyf has been stalling you in it in the meantime (maybe they also Stifled the Vial trigger, or worse yet countered some of your Merfolk). Maybe they have their own Progenitus (Bant) except it's a lot bigger. Maybe they've been throwing Bolts at your face the whole game and turn 4 is just too late (Burn, U/R Delver Burn). There are a lot of things you can do. The only decks that actually need to remove this are the control decks (Miracles, Pox, etc.) which should have no problem.
The real thing is you have to play Legacy to understand how much of a non-issue this card is. There are so many "broken" things that you can't deal with once they're on the table that this seems relatively minor. How does a fair deck deal with a turn 2 Emrakul or Griselbrand? How does a Fair Deck deal with taking 20 life to the face from Storm/Belcher on turn 1 or 2? How about a Progenitus or hoard of Elves with Craterhoof Behemoth on turn 2 or 3? How does a fair deck deal with a resolved Jitte or Jace?
As a fair deck you either have to prevent things from happening or you have to try to win before they happen. Sometimes you can't deal with resolved cards. Of the horrible cards you could be facing down a 3/1 Progenitus doesn't seem that scary. If this cost 2 CMC it would be as broken as people think it is now. But at 3 CMC it's pretty slow by Legacy standards and we'll have to see how many decks can actually use him effectively.
The real thing is you have to play Legacy to understand how much of a non-issue this card is.
It's a non-issue insofar as it does not warp the format. What is exciting is that is probably PLAYABLE in Vintage / Legacy, and that's a really high bar for a card to meet. We might get two or three each set. It's powerful, it's fun, and it will probably spawn archetypes in Legacy.
The oops Merfolk lost card. They just don't print hate like they used to.
They don't like color-hosing anymore, and I kind of agree; you shouldn't punish people for running a mono-color deck, since they're naturally handicapped by doing that anyway.
The only thing that stops this guy from being format-ruiningly overpowered is the fact that he has a CMC of 3. If he was priced at 1U or UU and was a 2/1, he'd be all kinds of broken.
Also, you can Stifle the protection ability upon him entering the battlefield.
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The only thing that stops this guy from being format-ruiningly overpowered is the fact that he has a CMC of 3. If he was priced at 1U or UU and was a 2/1, he'd be all kinds of broken.
Also, you can Stifle the protection ability upon him entering the battlefield.
You cannot Stifle the protection ability. It is a replacement effect modifying how it enters the battlefield (see "as ~ enters the battlefield"). If you could stifle it, you could also just destroy it in response.
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The discussion appears to be more about a difference in implementation, the same way that people can't wrap their head around that the fact that Curse of the Swine does the same thing as Turn to Frog, finding one card offensive but the other perfectly acceptable because it achieves that effect through a different physical process.
Except it doesn't do the same thing as Turn to Frog. It does a tremendously different thing. Most of the complaints about Curse of the Swine, besides that it's mass removal, is that it's irreversible. Blue creature removal is supposed to be temporary. Even things like Rapid Hybradization at least allow you to recur the creature (although the same people hate that spell, too). Turn to Frog reverses itself. Control Magic effects and bounce are generally temporary, at least with the right answers. Curse of the Swine shouldn't have exiled.
That said, this card is clearly a blue card. I've never once looked at protection and thought of the color pie in the first place. Did anyone complain that Phyrexian Crusader had far, far more powerful protection than Mirran Crusader? If I lump protection with anything, it's probably knights. They may be primarily white, but there are plenty of black, green, red, blue and gold knights.
I like how we are talking about cheating a 3 drop into play...
What has magic come to?
But on a serious note. I think this card is perfect. Strong, doesn't break the color pie, feels blue to me, and also is interesting. It will likely see play.
That said, this card is clearly a blue card. I've never once looked at protection and thought of the color pie in the first place. Did anyone complain that Phyrexian Crusader had far, far more powerful protection than Mirran Crusader? If I lump protection with anything, it's probably knights. They may be primarily white, but there are plenty of black, green, red, blue and gold knights.
I'm sure somebody complained. They probably also complained about the Scars Knights have protection from 1 enemy and 1 ally color.
As someone who plays a fair bit of Merfolk in Legacy, I like this guy. I'll try him as a 2-of most likely. I was doing a bit of testing with Thassa and she can be good but she also sort of detracts from the aggressive plan (when you don't have devotion that is, which can be a fair bit of the time) and isn't synergistic with the deck as much as I'd hoped.
This new guy will be a beast in the Jund matchup which is one I sometimes struggle with; any grindy/disruptive, non-island-based deck can be miserable for Merfolk.
I'm not entirely clear on what "Protection from Players" entails though, I get that it means you can't be damaged by their creatures, or direct-target spells/damage-based sweepers, but I assume things like Terminus are still fair game? What about Jace bounce?
Either way this creature should be beastly in the B/G/R-centric matchups
As someone who plays a fair bit of Merfolk in Legacy, I like this guy. I'll try him as a 2-of most likely. I was doing a bit of testing with Thassa and she can be good but she also sort of detracts from the aggressive plan (when you don't have devotion that is, which can be a fair bit of the time) and isn't synergistic with the deck as much as I'd hoped.
This new guy will be a beast in the Jund matchup which is one I sometimes struggle with; any grindy/disruptive, non-island-based deck can be miserable for Merfolk.
I'm not entirely clear on what "Protection from Players" entails though, I get that it means you can't be damaged by their creatures, or direct-target spells/damage-based sweepers, but I assume things like Terminus are still fair game? What about Jace bounce?
Either way this creature should be beastly in the B/G/R-centric matchups
For protection remember DEBT. Damage, Enchant/Equip, Block or Target. If it does any of those things and is controlled by the chosen player, no effect.
Jace's bounce targets, so it wouldn't work.
Terminus doesn't damage or target, so it would work.
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For protection remember DEBT. Damage, Enchant/Equip, Block or Target. If it does any of those things and is controlled by the chosen player, no effect.
Jace's bounce targets, so it wouldn't work.
Terminus doesn't damage or target, so it would work.
Thanks that's what I figured, just wasn't 100% on Jace since I wasn't sure if it was somehow considered a separate entity from the player who cast it.
Anyway after thinking on it, this Identity Nemesis might even be a 3 or 4-of in Legacy Merfolk, replacing Reejerey completely, and going back upto 4 Phantasmal Image and maindeck Jitte. Could sort of reinvent the deck. Then again it might contribute to other decks/strategies even better, something with Stoneforge mystics to tutor up the gear or whatever. Going to be interesting, these Commander releases usually have a few gems, wonder if we'll be seeing any more legacy playables?
Thanks that's what I figured, just wasn't 100% on Jace since I wasn't sure if it was somehow considered a separate entity from the player who cast it.
Anyway after thinking on it, this Identity Nemesis might even be a 3 or 4-of in Legacy Merfolk, replacing Reejerey completely, and going back upto 4 Phantasmal Image and maindeck Jitte. Could sort of reinvent the deck. Then again it might contribute to other decks/strategies even better, something with Stoneforge mystics to tutor up the gear or whatever. Going to be interesting, these Commander releases usually have a few gems, wonder if we'll be seeing any more legacy playables?
Why would you take lords out of Merfolk? The whole point is that your deck is unblockable most of the time anyway.
It's weird..I was gonna make some stupid joke about how this guy is just them continuing the Nemesis Cycle they started in the first Commander precons but thought the better of such pointless spam.
But then today, completely on a whim, I actually re-read the card. Seriously? "Choose a player..."
It's weird..I was gonna make some stupid joke about how this guy is just them continuing the Nemesis Cycle they started in the first Commander precons but thought the better of such pointless spam.
But then today, completely on a whim, I actually re-read the card. Seriously? "Choose a player..."
I honestly don't know what to think here..
Do you think we'll see an actual cycle of these?
I never made that connection, but now that you mention it I think you're right, and over the next few years of Commander products we'll eventually see a Nemesis in the other three colours.
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I never made that connection, but now that you mention it I think you're right, and over the next few years of Commander products we'll eventually see a Nemesis in the other three colours.
Oh hell yeah! These are both bomb cards, I want this!
i personally think this card will end up in a blue black rogue type deck that can do interesting shenanigans. the fact is that its a 3 mana for a 3/1 rogue that can be further reduced by some other cards. its mad scary.
Except it doesn't do the same thing as Turn to Frog. It does a tremendously different thing. Most of the complaints about Curse of the Swine, besides that it's mass removal, is that it's irreversible. Blue creature removal is supposed to be temporary. Even things like Rapid Hybradization at least allow you to recur the creature (although the same people hate that spell, too). Turn to Frog reverses itself. Control Magic effects and bounce are generally temporary, at least with the right answers. Curse of the Swine shouldn't have exiled.
That said, this card is clearly a blue card. I've never once looked at protection and thought of the color pie in the first place. Did anyone complain that Phyrexian Crusader had far, far more powerful protection than Mirran Crusader? If I lump protection with anything, it's probably knights. They may be primarily white, but there are plenty of black, green, red, blue and gold knights.
While i do agree that blue shouldn't have irreversible removal, I do understand why Wizards is doing it. Blue's traditional control elements is being planned to be totally nerfed or even removed in the future (Like what they did to land destruction, and most combo in standard). Wizards is looking for some other way they can move blue to so they can trash counters and stuff, and they have been trying for years, and they always fail (faeries, delver, mill etc.).
Okay, seriously brah! No it doesn't! I countered that list on the other page in detail, but I'll do it here in one sentence.
"Protection from creatures" does not equal "protection from players".
Blue effects "players" far more often with enchants than white, and gets protection. I can list a number of plays which go directly on the player's ability to do stuff. That is where blue plays, now get over yourself.
The only deck that would use this, that uses vial is Merfolk. Merfolk will not be broken by this card. A lot of people won't even run it. They like to sit at 2. I personally think it solves so many bad matchups for Merfolk (Punishing Fire...) that it's worth it. But the overreaction to this card is just outrageous. This isn't the next Deathrite Shaman or Delver, it isn't going to be format warping.
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
How does one of the "Fair Decks" beat a resolved one? Just asking a question here. The only one that comes to the top of my mind is LotV.
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Goblins just says "okay" and swings Alpha with Piledriver. The Delver decks continue to hit you in the air and burn you to the face and their Goyf has been stalling you in it in the meantime (maybe they also Stifled the Vial trigger, or worse yet countered some of your Merfolk). Maybe they have their own Progenitus (Bant) except it's a lot bigger. Maybe they've been throwing Bolts at your face the whole game and turn 4 is just too late (Burn, U/R Delver Burn). There are a lot of things you can do. The only decks that actually need to remove this are the control decks (Miracles, Pox, etc.) which should have no problem.
The real thing is you have to play Legacy to understand how much of a non-issue this card is. There are so many "broken" things that you can't deal with once they're on the table that this seems relatively minor. How does a fair deck deal with a turn 2 Emrakul or Griselbrand? How does a Fair Deck deal with taking 20 life to the face from Storm/Belcher on turn 1 or 2? How about a Progenitus or hoard of Elves with Craterhoof Behemoth on turn 2 or 3? How does a fair deck deal with a resolved Jitte or Jace?
As a fair deck you either have to prevent things from happening or you have to try to win before they happen. Sometimes you can't deal with resolved cards. Of the horrible cards you could be facing down a 3/1 Progenitus doesn't seem that scary. If this cost 2 CMC it would be as broken as people think it is now. But at 3 CMC it's pretty slow by Legacy standards and we'll have to see how many decks can actually use him effectively.
I forgot the best fair out to this card: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27175
The oops Merfolk lost card. They just don't print hate like they used to.
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
It's a non-issue insofar as it does not warp the format. What is exciting is that is probably PLAYABLE in Vintage / Legacy, and that's a really high bar for a card to meet. We might get two or three each set. It's powerful, it's fun, and it will probably spawn archetypes in Legacy.
They don't like color-hosing anymore, and I kind of agree; you shouldn't punish people for running a mono-color deck, since they're naturally handicapped by doing that anyway.
That said, bring back the Circles of Protection!
Merfolk likes to keep the Aether Vial at 2.
Also, you can Stifle the protection ability upon him entering the battlefield.
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You cannot Stifle the protection ability. It is a replacement effect modifying how it enters the battlefield (see "as ~ enters the battlefield"). If you could stifle it, you could also just destroy it in response.
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Except it doesn't do the same thing as Turn to Frog. It does a tremendously different thing. Most of the complaints about Curse of the Swine, besides that it's mass removal, is that it's irreversible. Blue creature removal is supposed to be temporary. Even things like Rapid Hybradization at least allow you to recur the creature (although the same people hate that spell, too). Turn to Frog reverses itself. Control Magic effects and bounce are generally temporary, at least with the right answers. Curse of the Swine shouldn't have exiled.
That said, this card is clearly a blue card. I've never once looked at protection and thought of the color pie in the first place. Did anyone complain that Phyrexian Crusader had far, far more powerful protection than Mirran Crusader? If I lump protection with anything, it's probably knights. They may be primarily white, but there are plenty of black, green, red, blue and gold knights.
What has magic come to?
But on a serious note. I think this card is perfect. Strong, doesn't break the color pie, feels blue to me, and also is interesting. It will likely see play.
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I'm sure somebody complained. They probably also complained about the Scars Knights have protection from 1 enemy and 1 ally color.
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This new guy will be a beast in the Jund matchup which is one I sometimes struggle with; any grindy/disruptive, non-island-based deck can be miserable for Merfolk.
I'm not entirely clear on what "Protection from Players" entails though, I get that it means you can't be damaged by their creatures, or direct-target spells/damage-based sweepers, but I assume things like Terminus are still fair game? What about Jace bounce?
Either way this creature should be beastly in the B/G/R-centric matchups
For protection remember DEBT. Damage, Enchant/Equip, Block or Target. If it does any of those things and is controlled by the chosen player, no effect.
Jace's bounce targets, so it wouldn't work.
Terminus doesn't damage or target, so it would work.
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Thanks that's what I figured, just wasn't 100% on Jace since I wasn't sure if it was somehow considered a separate entity from the player who cast it.
Anyway after thinking on it, this Identity Nemesis might even be a 3 or 4-of in Legacy Merfolk, replacing Reejerey completely, and going back upto 4 Phantasmal Image and maindeck Jitte. Could sort of reinvent the deck. Then again it might contribute to other decks/strategies even better, something with Stoneforge mystics to tutor up the gear or whatever. Going to be interesting, these Commander releases usually have a few gems, wonder if we'll be seeing any more legacy playables?
Why would you take lords out of Merfolk? The whole point is that your deck is unblockable most of the time anyway.
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Grixis deck.
But then today, completely on a whim, I actually re-read the card. Seriously? "Choose a player..."
I honestly don't know what to think here..
Do you think we'll see an actual cycle of these?
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I never made that connection, but now that you mention it I think you're right, and over the next few years of Commander products we'll eventually see a Nemesis in the other three colours.
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Oh hell yeah! These are both bomb cards, I want this!
i like it
While i do agree that blue shouldn't have irreversible removal, I do understand why Wizards is doing it. Blue's traditional control elements is being planned to be totally nerfed or even removed in the future (Like what they did to land destruction, and most combo in standard). Wizards is looking for some other way they can move blue to so they can trash counters and stuff, and they have been trying for years, and they always fail (faeries, delver, mill etc.).
nope it cannot. Neither of them can block the other.
But Progenitus has protection from rules so it can do what ever it wants. (seriously why do they keep making these incredibly vague protection cards?)
I know right? We should stick to just cheating 2 drops into play like we've been doing for years (aether vial,Goblin Lackey,Aluren, Basking Rootwalla... )