All in favor of nicknaming this card Troloro, Ageless Griever?
Aye!!! With the troll part. He's not that bad, I really like the way his ability is crafted. It's over all a very nicely built card. My one issue it that he's a Giant Soldier. I dunno if giant is appropriate. Maybe, who knows.
It's not quite that. You only draw 1 (and your opponents lose life in the process). In short: Well would draw way more cards.
Except then you're running Well of Lost Dreams (a terrible card). Yes, he draws less per activation than well, but the comparison is definitely close. He also doubles as a win condition.
What kills Artifacts because it fundamentally disagrees with the philosophy with them? R/G.
Artifacts are the theme of control. And Esper isn't just artifice. It's transhumanism. Controlled, clean, perfection. I'm sorry but if that isn't WUB then I have to think you don't know what that color combination represents.
This is a terrible argument - white loves to destroy artifacts, too, and blue has plenty of artifact hate. Not to mention that artifacts have nothing to do with control specifically. There are aggro, midrange, ramp, combo and control themed artifacts.
I have found my Esper Stax general because of that... I always try to put realistically only have 20 points to start with. This guy doesn't even need to be played... just sits there offsetting my Mana Crypt all day long while I make kids cry.
This is a terrible argument - white loves to destroy artifacts, too, and blue has plenty of artifact hate. Not to mention that artifacts have nothing to do with control specifically. There are aggro, midrange, ramp, combo and control themed artifacts.
I could link you to whatever articles/blogposts/flavor discussion proving my point, but I don't think you really care about having your opinion proved factually flawed.
I'm building this ASAP (and definitely pre-ordering as soon as it's available).
Side note: Anyone feel like the U is a little too tack-on and and flavorless here? Like, he's clearly just Orzhov. Nothing about him says Blue.
Jiv, stop trolling.
It's not quite that. You only draw 1 (and your opponents lose life in the process). In short: Well would draw way more cards.
Lifegain supports blue in a way, lifegain stalls the game. remember batterskull is paired with counterbalance deck when mental misstep was legal in legacy?
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This is a terrible argument - white loves to destroy artifacts, too, and blue has plenty of artifact hate. Not to mention that artifacts have nothing to do with control specifically. There are aggro, midrange, ramp, combo and control themed artifacts.
White kills enchantments, not artifacts. But from a point of view of color philosophies:
White - Desires order, control, law, and a 'perfect' clean world. A world of artifact creatures is by default more orderly as it removes human/organic 'freedom' (White's disagreement with Red, who loves personal freedom).
Blue - Is about advancement and reason, if an artifact body would allow them to know more, learn more, seek more, they would take it and forego the weak flesh they were born with. Thus they too would seek artifacts as power.
Black - It's greatest fear is its greatest tool: Death. If sacrificing their flesh for a chance at avoiding their own death were an option, they would take it.
And the two anti-artifact colors:
Red - Red is about personal human freedom, a world of machines and artificial has no love for the baser needs. No food, no sex, no any of the fun human things to do. Red forsakes such a clean artificial world for it believes there's no fun to that life.
Green - Green hates anything that spites nature, the artificial and the man-made clouds a perfect natural world. A simple world where the strong thrive and the weak die. This is also where Green's hatred of enchantment comes from, using magic to make yourself more than what you naturally are is wrong.
Thus, between all that, Artifact matters would be a WUB mechanic.
I could link you to whatever articles/blogposts/flavor discussion proving my point, but I don't think you really care about having your opinion proved factually flawed.
@Galspanic: My thoughts exactly.
So blue and white don't have artifact hate? There aren't combo, midrange, aggro and ramp artifacts? I've been inventing some really cool cards in my delusions, I suppose.
PS: Way to go with the "I'm going to tell you your argument is wrong, but I'm not going to prove it wrong because I don't care enough" logic. Always solid.
Think of it as "gain 2 life, draw a card, opp loses 1 life". (Though you can also pay the 1 off things like lifelink and Exquisite Blood, if you so desire. Wait, isn't there a land that gives all your dudes lifelink somewhere?)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So blue and white don't have artifact hate? There aren't combo, midrange, aggro and ramp artifacts? I've been inventing some really cool cards in my delusions, I suppose.
PS: Way to go with the "I'm going to tell you your argument is wrong, but I'm not going to prove it wrong because I don't care enough" logic. Always solid.
Because you asked so very nicely (please prove me wrong that you actually care about being corrected and aren't arguing out of raw ignorance).
Um, did you even read those links? The first one simply explains that Esper is the control shard (which no one disagreed with). It doesn't say a word about artifacts being linked to control. It talks about artifacts being linked to blue, I suppose, but that's not at all the same thing. The second link literally has the word "artifact" appear once - which links to a page explaining how artifacts are meant to be used by every color of mage and every style of play. In fact, it says artifacts lend themselves best towards combo.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I have found my Esper Stax general because of that... I always try to put realistically only have 20 points to start with. This guy doesn't even need to be played... just sits there offsetting my Mana Crypt all day long while I make kids cry.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Um, did you even read those links? The first one simply explains that Esper is the control shard (which no one disagreed with). It doesn't say a word about artifacts being linked to control. The second link literally has the word "artifact" appear once - which links to a page explaining how artifacts are meant to be used by every color of mage and every style of play.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
It being the "CONTROL" shard is exactly why artifice works. You cannot miss that can you?
You're assuming just because Esper is an artifact plane that artifacts are everything about it. They are a medium. A theme. A way to express the transhumanistic philosophies of the plane in a physical unique way.
The articles are perfect for explaining this but you just refuse to understand context.
Lemme rephrase, White's primary hate is on enchantments, it has tertiary hate on Artifacts (I don't think it's secondary, but it might be, I'd have to double check). Where Green and Red are primary on Artifact hate (Green is also primary on Enchantment hate, while Red is primary in Land hate).
1. (search parameter 'destroy target artifact') Everything in that list had both, and if you replace artifact with enchantment the list goes up to 52.
2. (search parameter 'exile target artifact') Of the seven (Dispatch doesn't count, it just has all the words but in the wrong order) there, only one is artifact only, and there are 15 cards for enchantment.
3. (search parameter 'destroy all artifacts') White is the color of nuking the field, this isn't news, and it isn't artifact hate, it's fun hate. And again, there are more cards in White that kill all Enchantments, and some of them ONLY hate on enchantments.
White, when it comes to hate, only has Artifact kill because Wizards decided to help it out because exclusive enchantment hate is too narrow to rely on in a creature eat creature world (which, let's face it, Magic has been for a while).
PHEW. I was really concerned when I saw such a cool general with tons of comboa at the ready. But after reading the last few pages, i am relieved. For a second, i ACTUALLY thought people here would discuss a card instead of immidiately lashing out at each other about somethinf trivial like colorpie arrifact hate. Thank goodness somethings never change. Stay classy, Rumormill.
Not that anyone is talking about the card, but id love to figure out a cool steady lifegain and exploit deck with this card.
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I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
It being the "CONTROL" shard is exactly why artifice works. You cannot miss that can you?
You're assuming just because Esper is an artifact plane that artifacts are everything about it. They are a medium. A theme. A way to express the transhumanistic philosophies of the plane in a physical unique way.
The articles are perfect for explaining this but you just refuse to understand context.
No, I really don't. The articles says that they wanted Esper to be a control shard (because it's blue centered) and an artifact shard. It says absolutely nothing about the two being correlated, which the comment I initially replied to stated. That article is referring to Esper. That's it. It's not actually referring to BWU as a group of colors on its own.
I never once said Esper didn't make sense. It was fine. But artifacts and control aren't even remotely related. Artifacts exist in all strategies and work well with all colors.
What kills Artifacts because it fundamentally disagrees with the philosophy with them? R/G.
Artifacts are the theme of control. And Esper isn't just artifice. It's transhumanism. Controlled, clean, perfection. I'm sorry but if that isn't WUB then I have to think you don't know what that color combination represents.
This is what I responded to, in case you've forgotten. This is blatantly incorrect in MTG in general. They jammed that into Alara block to make Esper make sense. It has no support anywhere else, as the massive amount of white artifact hate and the huge number of red/green artifact supporting cards demonstrates.
PHEW. I was really concerned when I saw such a cool general with tons of comboa at the ready. But after reading the last few pages, i am relieved. For a second, i ACTUALLY thought people here would discuss a card instead of immidiately lashing out at each other about somethinf trivial like colorpie arrifact hate. Thank goodness somethings never change. Stay classy, Rumormill.
Not that anyone is talking about the card, but id love to figure out a cool steady lifegain and exploit deck with this card.
The steady lifegain effects? You mean other than anything run in Soul Sisters, Orzhov, Vampires, and Lifelink Angels..? Black and White have been sick with lifegain since I rejoined the game at the end of Innistrad.
Turning Scholar of Athreos into "4B: Everyone loses 1 life, you gain that much life, draw a card." seems more than okay to me.
Side note: Anyone feel like the U is a little too tack-on and and flavorless here? Like, he's clearly just Orzhov. Nothing about him says Blue.
Drawing cards without some form of life payment isn't in B/. I mean, thematically you can pretend the life payment is coming from your opponents, but in terms of the color pie, that's not what's going on. The lifegain comes from W, the card draw from U, and the life loss for your opponents from B.
Side note: Anyone feel like the U is a little too tack-on and and flavorless here? Like, he's clearly just Orzhov. Nothing about him says Blue.
Jiv, stop trolling.
It's not quite that. You only draw 1 (and your opponents lose life in the process). In short: Well would draw way more cards.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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Aye!!! With the troll part. He's not that bad, I really like the way his ability is crafted. It's over all a very nicely built card. My one issue it that he's a Giant Soldier. I dunno if giant is appropriate. Maybe, who knows.
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That was the first card that popped into my mind. "Quasi-Well of Lost Dreams on a stick? Gimme!"
If you can get a good amount of mana going, he's really great with Exquisite Blood.
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Except then you're running Well of Lost Dreams (a terrible card). Yes, he draws less per activation than well, but the comparison is definitely close. He also doubles as a win condition.
So yea, he's essentially Well as a general.
This is a terrible argument - white loves to destroy artifacts, too, and blue has plenty of artifact hate. Not to mention that artifacts have nothing to do with control specifically. There are aggro, midrange, ramp, combo and control themed artifacts.
I have found my Esper Stax general because of that... I always try to put realistically only have 20 points to start with. This guy doesn't even need to be played... just sits there offsetting my Mana Crypt all day long while I make kids cry.
It makes Well of Lost Dreams almost not suck.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I could link you to whatever articles/blogposts/flavor discussion proving my point, but I don't think you really care about having your opinion proved factually flawed.
@Galspanic: My thoughts exactly.
Lifegain supports blue in a way, lifegain stalls the game. remember batterskull is paired with counterbalance deck when mental misstep was legal in legacy?
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
White kills enchantments, not artifacts. But from a point of view of color philosophies:
White - Desires order, control, law, and a 'perfect' clean world. A world of artifact creatures is by default more orderly as it removes human/organic 'freedom' (White's disagreement with Red, who loves personal freedom).
Blue - Is about advancement and reason, if an artifact body would allow them to know more, learn more, seek more, they would take it and forego the weak flesh they were born with. Thus they too would seek artifacts as power.
Black - It's greatest fear is its greatest tool: Death. If sacrificing their flesh for a chance at avoiding their own death were an option, they would take it.
And the two anti-artifact colors:
Red - Red is about personal human freedom, a world of machines and artificial has no love for the baser needs. No food, no sex, no any of the fun human things to do. Red forsakes such a clean artificial world for it believes there's no fun to that life.
Green - Green hates anything that spites nature, the artificial and the man-made clouds a perfect natural world. A simple world where the strong thrive and the weak die. This is also where Green's hatred of enchantment comes from, using magic to make yourself more than what you naturally are is wrong.
Thus, between all that, Artifact matters would be a WUB mechanic.
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So blue and white don't have artifact hate? There aren't combo, midrange, aggro and ramp artifacts? I've been inventing some really cool cards in my delusions, I suppose.
PS: Way to go with the "I'm going to tell you your argument is wrong, but I'm not going to prove it wrong because I don't care enough" logic. Always solid.
Wat?
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Adestroy+o%3Atarget+o%3Aartifact+c%21w&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Aexile+o%3Atarget+o%3Aartifact+c%21w&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Adestroy+o%3Aall+o%3Aartifacts+c%21w&v=card&s=cname
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Think of it as "gain 2 life, draw a card, opp loses 1 life". (Though you can also pay the 1 off things like lifelink and Exquisite Blood, if you so desire. Wait, isn't there a land that gives all your dudes lifelink somewhere?)
On phasing:
Because you asked so very nicely (please prove me wrong that you actually care about being corrected and aren't arguing out of raw ignorance).
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/5
https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/13
Oh really?
Artifact and Enchantment Hate
Abolish
Aura of Silence
Artifact Hate (No Enchantments)
Seems like White has no problem destroying artifacts.
Um, did you even read those links? The first one simply explains that Esper is the control shard (which no one disagreed with). It doesn't say a word about artifacts being linked to control. It talks about artifacts being linked to blue, I suppose, but that's not at all the same thing. The second link literally has the word "artifact" appear once - which links to a page explaining how artifacts are meant to be used by every color of mage and every style of play. In fact, it says artifacts lend themselves best towards combo.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I was thinking this same thing.
It being the "CONTROL" shard is exactly why artifice works. You cannot miss that can you?
You're assuming just because Esper is an artifact plane that artifacts are everything about it. They are a medium. A theme. A way to express the transhumanistic philosophies of the plane in a physical unique way.
The articles are perfect for explaining this but you just refuse to understand context.
Lemme rephrase, White's primary hate is on enchantments, it has tertiary hate on Artifacts (I don't think it's secondary, but it might be, I'd have to double check). Where Green and Red are primary on Artifact hate (Green is also primary on Enchantment hate, while Red is primary in Land hate).
1. (search parameter 'destroy target artifact') Everything in that list had both, and if you replace artifact with enchantment the list goes up to 52.
2. (search parameter 'exile target artifact') Of the seven (Dispatch doesn't count, it just has all the words but in the wrong order) there, only one is artifact only, and there are 15 cards for enchantment.
3. (search parameter 'destroy all artifacts') White is the color of nuking the field, this isn't news, and it isn't artifact hate, it's fun hate. And again, there are more cards in White that kill all Enchantments, and some of them ONLY hate on enchantments.
White, when it comes to hate, only has Artifact kill because Wizards decided to help it out because exclusive enchantment hate is too narrow to rely on in a creature eat creature world (which, let's face it, Magic has been for a while).
Not that anyone is talking about the card, but id love to figure out a cool steady lifegain and exploit deck with this card.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
No, I really don't. The articles says that they wanted Esper to be a control shard (because it's blue centered) and an artifact shard. It says absolutely nothing about the two being correlated, which the comment I initially replied to stated. That article is referring to Esper. That's it. It's not actually referring to BWU as a group of colors on its own.
I never once said Esper didn't make sense. It was fine. But artifacts and control aren't even remotely related. Artifacts exist in all strategies and work well with all colors.
This is what I responded to, in case you've forgotten. This is blatantly incorrect in MTG in general. They jammed that into Alara block to make Esper make sense. It has no support anywhere else, as the massive amount of white artifact hate and the huge number of red/green artifact supporting cards demonstrates.
The steady lifegain effects? You mean other than anything run in Soul Sisters, Orzhov, Vampires, and Lifelink Angels..? Black and White have been sick with lifegain since I rejoined the game at the end of Innistrad.
Turning Scholar of Athreos into "4B: Everyone loses 1 life, you gain that much life, draw a card." seems more than okay to me.
Drawing cards without some form of life payment isn't in B/. I mean, thematically you can pretend the life payment is coming from your opponents, but in terms of the color pie, that's not what's going on. The lifegain comes from W, the card draw from U, and the life loss for your opponents from B.