Not in love with the card but as long as my deck abuses it more than my opponents can its good enough. And I don't think anyones token deck in my play group can abuse this more than mine does.
In Commander I don't consider symmetrical effects to be strictly "downsides"
It promotes the political aspect of the format which is a selling point for the format
The notion that "symmetrical effect = downside" is something derived from 1-on-1 formats, I don't think this is true for Commander
I wasn't equating it to downsides, I'm saying both downsides and symmetrical effects are parts of the game and should be part of designing cards. It's stupid that they even thought for a minute to find ways to disclude them.
3. I hate this new "let's make no symmetrical or downside cards!" because it babies players, and I think it makes people more whiney. Seriously. I LOVE downside cards, because you have to actually THINK about them, they don't just do everything for you. Makes games intense sometimes.
THIS, THIS, THIS x1000!
I remember starting out with my very first black deck (that later morphed into an awesome Zombie deck), and it had Maggot Carrier in it. I remember thinking "why do I keep running this trash card, it makes me lose a life!" but I never took it out.
Now, after years of playing and learning, I consider Maggot Carrier to be one fine card.
IMO, Slivers were never meant to be asymmetrical "baby-ing" creatures, either. I didn't play them til I learned how they worked, and if you can properly play Slivers, you can properly play quite a few decks. Slivers forced me to get better because I had to consider the symmetrical "drawback" before I played. They taught me to slow down and consider turns. The new M14 Slivers have completely lost that because there's no downside whatsoever. Despite running some in my Overlord EDH, I find them to be rather bland and uninteresting.
2. Sorry, the collectable game can cost money sometimes! With a little fishing you can get a DS for under 10 dollars, and please, you've spent more on less impacting cards I'm sure!(Most playsets of 4 in standard cost more than this, and EDH is STILL pricier than standard most of the time.) This day and age it's just not that much.
Also, MM DID lower it's price...quite a bit, took almost 5 dollars off the price, they don't everyone to have chase cards...sorry?
Yeah I guess it takes money if you want some of the popular combo-pieces and I'm not complaining that it costs too much, so you're pretty wrong in your assumption that I even play constructed EDH. I have my Counterpunch deck and then I have online decks I play for fun.
I know about DS's decrease in value, I think I even posted a reply in here with a link to its development from quite a while back until now.
Modern Masters was an extremely limited print-run though.
However it seems like it was enough to dent the price, whether that was purely speculation-bubble who burst or enough supply to satisfy demand is unknown. Visuals
3. I have no pitty for those people. Those are the people who don't play Faith's Reward because they'll play second sunrise instead. These are the people that miss the whole synergy bit, and go right to "GIVE ME LOADS OF POWER!!!"
Personal taste I guess. I'd rather seen this as a DS with purely +1/+1 counter and token-affinity - aka Corpsejack Menace + Parallel Lives in one.
And now some points of my own:
1. It's not likely that Doubling Season will be reprinted here, but WE DON'T KNOW!!! It could still be reprinted, and this could be a second copy in the deck they reprint it in. That would turn peeps around REAL QUICK!
I don't think we should fear/expect that. The cycle is meant to be balanced in between the decks and I fear 2 DS-effects would make Marath ridiculous. It's by no means sure that he would get both tho - but where else would you put them? Jund for more Kobolds with Prossh? Seems unlikely.
However said general actually makes the card all that much worse, as a general like him is likely to show up in those matches. Drawing a card which may benefit your opponent more than yourself again seems like a sad case. However Political Puppets had a few of those cards, so it's not outside boundaries of what they have already played with.
2. You are all whining about a card that by itself manages to make Marath go infinite, makes ghave go infinite, makes stupid things happen with the mimeoplasm or Zegana. You know what? SCREW CORPSEJACK MENACE!<Snip>You want synergy cards no matter what</Snip>
It doesn't by itself make them go infinite, however it makes their abilities all that much better. I personally didn't thought we would get a DS-card but I would have expected Corpsejack Menace in some form - Juniper Order Ranger-like.
3. I hate this new "let's make no symmetrical or downside cards!" because it babies players, and I think it makes people more whiney. Seriously. I LOVE downside cards, because you have to actually THINK about them, they don't just do everything for you. Makes games intense sometimes.
Personal taste, don't bash others for theirs.
Downside cards usually have a pay-off to "justify" the downside, this one doesn't and thus is a worse DS. However that doesn't necessarily make the card unwanted by the vast majority.
Some also just express their opinion of what they'd rather see, not that they don't want this card at all.
But it's quite obvious that a card which has a downside, naturally becomes less attractive. If you are more attracted by it, due to the downside, you play irrational - hence objectively bad compared to your alternatives - however people do this all the time and thank god for that.
As a community "net-decking" is used quite a load around here and the term originates from linearity in deck-creation with the mind-set of "Play what is best, play what others play and has created results".
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
The question is, how many "doubling season" effects are considered too many? A card like this would mean you many have to cut a token producer, or an anthem.
Remember when we add a card, we have to cut one as well... Will this replace Parallel Lives? I like that fact Lives cost 4cmc. Sometimes too many of the same effect makes the deck play out too similarly...
The question is, how many "doubling season" effects are considered too many? A card like this would mean you many have to cut a token producer, or an anthem.
Remember when we add a card, we have to cut one as well... Will this replace Parallel Lives? I like that fact Lives cost 4cmc. Sometimes too many of the same effect makes the deck play out too similarly...
This. The fact that it is symmetrical and only interacts with +1/+1 counters makes it worse than the other two options and probably just not good enough to play. If it said any counter on a Creature, Artifact, or Enchantment I'd probably play it, but the fact it doesn't interact with cards like Shrines or Quests makes it very low impact IMO.
I wish:
a)this said something like "non-loyalty counters" or "if you would put a counter other than a loyalty counter".
and
b) cost 4, maybe 2GG?
If it affected other counters symetrically it would be really interesting with stuff like wither. Makes Beast Within a tough descision.
All in all it is pretty cool though, decks like Ulasht would rather play this than Parallel Lives no question.
edit:
Jturphy's suggestion might be better: "If you would put a counter on artifact, creature, land or enchantment". That way you couldn't hack it with planeswalkers with Liquimetal Coating
So people who don't play a certain strategy are complaining that a strategy they don't play is getting something good?
If they want DS then get DS; if they can't afford DS then they get this. This effect is symmetrical so comparing it to DS doesn't even make much sense: their applications and implications are worlds apart.
Again, this and DS don't work in the same fashion: if you want a DS effect play DS, we don't need more cards that function exactly like DS. If they don't care about Commander then why complain about it?
I wish I could say haters going to hate but that would amount to thinking that the complaints that fall under the three categories you just described had any kind of thought put into them
Hey, welcome to MTGSalvation. People complain about other strategies getting buffs or nerfs all the time. Just head over to the Green nuke-all-enchas-artifacts Creep thread.
Obviously this card would seem to be less valued than DS, so yea it could act as a budget-version.
Comparison is completely reasonable IMO. They do approximately the same for a vast majority of instances, with the case that one of them also do this for your opponent.
DS' interaction with PWs may have seemed like an unintentional flaw from WotC's side. They knew that they would make Planeswalkers at the time of Time Spiral, 2006 (Future Sight at least, 2007) - actually I dunno if they knew around Ravnica, 2005.
However it was meant to work for +1/+1 counters, Charge Counters and Tokens.
And I didn't say people didn't cared about Commander, do you even read fully what I wrote or am I just incomprehensible? English is not my native tongue, so I apologize if I assume I'm being straightforward and actually gets misinterpreted.
I said that some don't care what happens outside the 5 decks printed in the Commander Cycle Product - obviously they are still playing EDH but with pre-made decks and without alterations.
Me and some of my friends have bought the 5 decks from Gen 1 and we play solely with those decks for EDH (between us 5) as they are somewhat matched in power. We considered allowing some alterations but decided against it as some could easily achieve more power through a few changes than others.
As such we don't care what happens outside this cheese cover as it's not relevant to our play-group - at least for this play-group we don't care. However we may wonder and then complain why we got an inferior version of a quite comparable card which within the play-group most likely wont [Edit: break stuff], as I don't expect PWs to be in the same deck as a possible DS-reprint.
Well my opinion was that I don't understand why we had to get a global DS-like enchantment at the exact cost of DS, while they could just have printed that exact card but changed it all to "Under your control"-types. I don't like that it became symmetrical as I don't like aiding my enemies without getting a pay-off - which I obviously didn't compared to alternatives. /opinion.
My opinion: Slivers are really strong tribal-wise, so their symmetrical abilities makes sense to keep them low costed and strong but also kinda risky. Also because if your opponent would gain benefit it would mostly mean that you would gain their benefits as well, the symmetry seemed to be two-sided if two Sliver-players faced off.
The Plague Sliver and Hivestone was printed to piss off Sliver-players as they apparently was quite strong as an archtype back before Time Spiral, so it was a way to deal with their popularity.
The new slivers are pretty overcosted (aside the few low-costed they had to print to make the tribal interaction even remotely interesting) and overall boring in effect. I'd say it was because they lost the symmetrical ability-connection AND because people during their prime-time hated Slivers, so WotC didn't wanted to make the archtype dominant again, but rather just give some additional tools for Sliver players for larger card pool formats.
Primal Vigor: Seems to me like a pointless addition to make it symmetrical. To me DS has always been a fun combo-piece which was powerful when you could combo out to something rather ridiculous. Otherwise it was quite modest - Corpsejack Menace and Parallel Lives are likewise modest unless you can combo out.
The interaction with PWs is just BS - IMO unintentional flaw they didn't catch in the up-drift.
I dunno. I assumed that was their point - as they said DS #5-8. It may merely be for EDH-reasons that another iteration is available.
My problem with this is they don't express simply "Meh, I don't like it"(some do, but that isn't my problem), they put down the company and player's who might utilize this.
Yeah I guess it takes money if you want some of the popular combo-pieces and I'm not complaining that it costs too much, so you're pretty wrong in your assumption that I even play constructed EDH. I have my Counterpunch deck and then I have online decks I play for fun.
I know about DS's decrease in value, I think I even posted a reply in here with a link to its development from quite a while back until now.
There we are.
I put 40 dollars a month towards magic for the most part. That isn't a lot. I hope to pick up all of these, so I may add a 20 to my regular spending.
Normally I don't buy prepackaged objects though, I buy a collection of cards that will directly support whatever deck I'm working on. I do not understand getting worked up over a card that can be obtained for less than 10 dollars with minimal effort. There are cards in this game that go up to 5 or 10 times that, that are sometimes staples to this game. If they don't print sol ring in here, like they did last time, are people going to get up in arms since that is a 15 dollar card? My point is that this trend is ridiculous. I remember your price comparison post, and appreciated it. I also think it's fine precedence for it to NOT be reprinted.
Personal taste I guess. I'd rather seen this as a DS with purely +1/+1 counter and token-affinity - aka Corpsejack Menace + Parallel Lives in one.
It becomes personal taste at this point, yes. I would state, as many have, that symmetry isn't necessarily a downside. Symmetrical cards effect everyone, and often make you much less of a target, as people want to use the community tools your offering. If someone plays this in Marath or Ghave? I may be a little put off, and attack them, as this gets close to making them go infinite. For clarification, it's a sac-for-mana trigger away from infinite.
I don't think we should fear/expect that. The cycle is meant to be balanced in between the decks and I fear 2 DS-effects would make Marath ridiculous. It's by no means sure that he would get both tho - but where else would you put them? Jund for more Kobolds with Prossh? Seems unlikely.
Stranger things have happened. I was told quicksilver dagger couldn't possibly show up in Izzet vs. Golgari, yet there it is. A tiny tool kit that didn't cost much at all, giving players the beginnings of a truly nasty Niv-Mizzet commander deck. I'm fine with this, and that was a great product. Printing this next to DS would really appease a lot of people, and as much as DS is well loved, it's still under 20 bucks, so they aren't deterring many people by making it regularly more available.
However said general actually makes the card all that much worse, as a general like him is likely to show up in those matches. Drawing a card which may benefit your opponent more than yourself again seems like a sad case. However Political Puppets had a few of those cards, so it's not outside boundaries of what they have already played with.
DS is better for Marath, this is probably better for Gahiji, who is clearly built to play opponents against each other. With Gahiji, you get to put down more tokens, and you also get to give your opponent's creatures a boost, while offering them tokens and counters for free. All seems in-line with gahiji's effect.
It doesn't by itself make them go infinite, however it makes their abilities all that much better. I personally didn't thought we would get a DS-card but I would have expected Corpsejack Menace in some form - Juniper Order Ranger-like.
Personal taste, don't bash others for theirs.
Your right, it's only infinite with a sac engine, so it's only infinite if they have Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, and Utopia Mycon(at least off the top of my head, I dunno, there may be more sac get mana cards I'm not thinking of right now.)
Downside cards usually have a pay-off to "justify" the downside, this one doesn't and thus is a worse DS. However that doesn't necessarily make the card unwanted by the vast majority.
Some also just express their opinion of what they'd rather see, not that they don't want this card at all.
But it's quite obvious that a card which has a downside, naturally becomes less attractive. If you are more attracted by it, due to the downside, you play irrational - hence objectively bad compared to your alternatives - however people do this all the time and thank god for that.
As a community "net-decking" is used quite a load around here and the term originates from linearity in deck-creation with the mind-set of "Play what is best, play what others play and has created results".
This card doesn't have a downside, it has symmetry. I was commenting in general. One can look at symmetry as beneficial to everyone, I know a lot of green players who play Rites of Flourishing, to help develop because it takes the target off them, while letting them quietly build their resources for some turn later. This card only paints a target on your back when you are playing a general that can go infinite with it, otherwise, your helping everyone at the table. It does nothing to you personally.
Also, I didn't state that I would play this OVER anything. I WOULD absolutely play this NEXT to DS, PL, Corpsejack, and the like. I don't think it's symmetrical effect is such a deterrent that it just doesn't find a natural place in those decks. It definitely does.
And again, this is towards people who ARE LITERALLY PUTTING DOWN THE WHOLE COMPANY FOR NOT PUTTING ONE CARD IN THE SET!
]Another Wizards fanboy wants to glorify everything they do. Why can't you see that the game has gotten nothing but worse since the 1940's? At least in the 1800's we had spells that actually did something. I remember in 1492 when I first opened a pack of Alpha under the dim light of my oil lantern, I was at least inspired to travel to a new undiscovered land.!
I'm actually tired of these functional reprints for EDH. What makes the format fun is the 1 ofs. Not having 5 cards that do the exact same thing in your deck.
This week on MTGS: Omg why did they make this slightly different Doubling Season when they could have made a functional reprint, this is stupid, I hate Magic.
Next week on MTGS: Omg why did they make a functional reprint of XXX when they could have tweaked it so it wasn't so boring by being exactly the same, this is stupid, i hate Magic.
In other news, this card is made for a different purpose than DS. It's cool in any sort of team format, and has possible interesting interactions in any multiplayer format. Why complain about cards that promote fun game states for a lot of people in the format most suited for casual fun games?
I have a copy of Doubling Season and my thinking is, unlike DS, this card might actually not get removed before my next upkeep rolls around. Having symmetry makes people feel it's less of a threat and more fair. Still, because of the symmetry I think it should cost 3 rather than 5.
Then both yes and no. If people knows you're gonna use it as a DS they are gonna blow it, as it's part of your combo-conditions.
TBH I personally think people are putting too much value into the "political" aspect of the symmetrical effect it has.
Let me tell it by example: In the Gen 1 EDH-product cycle, my friends and I would target the people who put dangerous symmetrical elements on the board, especially if it would mostly benefit him. Crescendo of War and Avatar of Slaughter were often backfires as people didn't enjoy that if others ganged up on them if they were ahead that they would get so sick bonuses and thus people beat the ones who tried to be "political".
[Edit: Now Crescendo might even be a misfire as it severely increases the efficiency of Counterpunch and their tokens - which was generally seen as the archenemy for Political Puppets as they had a hard time dealing with the swarm, unless they had Propaganda. So buffing up their archenemy through the exact thing Political Puppets had struggles to deal with was not a good option.]
The only real way to keep people of your back was to stuff down efficient blockers (here also calculating cards like Propaganda and Ghostly Prison) or retaliation-systems - like Numot, the Devastator or in case of Counterpunch in 80% of games until you can repeatedly create tokens; hope your opponents feels like a bigger threat as your creeps are quite poor combat-wise.
This is clearly way worse that doubling season....
* Doubling Season is only beneficial for you! [I admit: I didn't realize that when I first got that card...]
* Doubling Season is fun (broken?) with planeswalkers [But new people don't quite understand how it works... and it's a pain to explain each time you use it...]
* Doubling Season also works with charge counters!...
However, this one won't kill Belligerent Hatchling when he enters... or Kitchen Finks when its persist ability resolves Is the trade of worth it? ... mmm... guess
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH Deck: UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU GW Rhys the RedeemedWG WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
EVERYTHING MUST BE THE WAY IT WAS WHEN I WAS A PIMPLY TEENAGER!!!!!
Who said this exactly? I've said that the new slivers are boring, and I've seen people say that, but most of them LIKE the new DS.(which it really isn't a new DS, it's symmetrical so it's much more political)
I rather enjoy symmetrical cards such as this as they result in swingier games. Win or lose, swingy games are both more entertaining and more memorable than those where one person curbstomps the rest of the table.
As for Primal Vigor, I want to see it alongside Hive Mind and lots of token and counter making spells.
Cheers!
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If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
Nicol Bolas, a balance of Vorthos and PowerUBR
Nath of the Gilt LeafBG
Others
Squee, Goblin of AwesomenessR
Nekusar, the Mindblazer!UBR
Vela the NightcladUB
I used to be a world champion, but then I took a wolf to the knee. And three Galvanic Blasts to the face.
Concerning when returning to Kamigawa would be acceptable
I wasn't equating it to downsides, I'm saying both downsides and symmetrical effects are parts of the game and should be part of designing cards. It's stupid that they even thought for a minute to find ways to disclude them.
THIS, THIS, THIS x1000!
I remember starting out with my very first black deck (that later morphed into an awesome Zombie deck), and it had Maggot Carrier in it. I remember thinking "why do I keep running this trash card, it makes me lose a life!" but I never took it out.
Now, after years of playing and learning, I consider Maggot Carrier to be one fine card.
IMO, Slivers were never meant to be asymmetrical "baby-ing" creatures, either. I didn't play them til I learned how they worked, and if you can properly play Slivers, you can properly play quite a few decks. Slivers forced me to get better because I had to consider the symmetrical "drawback" before I played. They taught me to slow down and consider turns. The new M14 Slivers have completely lost that because there's no downside whatsoever. Despite running some in my Overlord EDH, I find them to be rather bland and uninteresting.
Lim-Dul Zombies
Kresh | Ghost Council | Sliver Overlord | Reaper King | Sharuum
Kaalia | Ghave | Zedruu | Mimeoplasm | Riku | Child of Alara (Kamigawa) | Anax and Cymede | Damia | Melek | Rakdos | Vela
Building:
Derevi | Maelstrom Wanderer (Primeval) | Nekusar | Borb, Enraged | Tymaret | Ur-Dragon | Marrow-Gnawer | Ruric Thar | Lavinia
Yeah I guess it takes money if you want some of the popular combo-pieces and I'm not complaining that it costs too much, so you're pretty wrong in your assumption that I even play constructed EDH. I have my Counterpunch deck and then I have online decks I play for fun.
I know about DS's decrease in value, I think I even posted a reply in here with a link to its development from quite a while back until now.
There we are.
Personal taste I guess. I'd rather seen this as a DS with purely +1/+1 counter and token-affinity - aka Corpsejack Menace + Parallel Lives in one.
I don't think we should fear/expect that. The cycle is meant to be balanced in between the decks and I fear 2 DS-effects would make Marath ridiculous. It's by no means sure that he would get both tho - but where else would you put them? Jund for more Kobolds with Prossh? Seems unlikely.
However said general actually makes the card all that much worse, as a general like him is likely to show up in those matches. Drawing a card which may benefit your opponent more than yourself again seems like a sad case. However Political Puppets had a few of those cards, so it's not outside boundaries of what they have already played with.
It doesn't by itself make them go infinite, however it makes their abilities all that much better. I personally didn't thought we would get a DS-card but I would have expected Corpsejack Menace in some form - Juniper Order Ranger-like.
Personal taste, don't bash others for theirs.
Downside cards usually have a pay-off to "justify" the downside, this one doesn't and thus is a worse DS. However that doesn't necessarily make the card unwanted by the vast majority.
Some also just express their opinion of what they'd rather see, not that they don't want this card at all.
But it's quite obvious that a card which has a downside, naturally becomes less attractive. If you are more attracted by it, due to the downside, you play irrational - hence objectively bad compared to your alternatives - however people do this all the time and thank god for that.
As a community "net-decking" is used quite a load around here and the term originates from linearity in deck-creation with the mind-set of "Play what is best, play what others play and has created results".
On the other hand, there's that Doubling Season Plane (Selesnya Loft Gardens),
which allowed me to win on T5 after getting a Tamiyo Emblem
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Remember when we add a card, we have to cut one as well... Will this replace Parallel Lives? I like that fact Lives cost 4cmc. Sometimes too many of the same effect makes the deck play out too similarly...
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
This. The fact that it is symmetrical and only interacts with +1/+1 counters makes it worse than the other two options and probably just not good enough to play. If it said any counter on a Creature, Artifact, or Enchantment I'd probably play it, but the fact it doesn't interact with cards like Shrines or Quests makes it very low impact IMO.
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Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I wish:
a)this said something like "non-loyalty counters" or "if you would put a counter other than a loyalty counter".
and
b) cost 4, maybe 2GG?
If it affected other counters symetrically it would be really interesting with stuff like wither. Makes Beast Within a tough descision.
All in all it is pretty cool though, decks like Ulasht would rather play this than Parallel Lives no question.
edit:
Jturphy's suggestion might be better: "If you would put a counter on artifact, creature, land or enchantment". That way you couldn't hack it with planeswalkers with Liquimetal Coating
Obviously this card would seem to be less valued than DS, so yea it could act as a budget-version.
Comparison is completely reasonable IMO. They do approximately the same for a vast majority of instances, with the case that one of them also do this for your opponent.
DS' interaction with PWs may have seemed like an unintentional flaw from WotC's side. They knew that they would make Planeswalkers at the time of Time Spiral, 2006 (Future Sight at least, 2007) - actually I dunno if they knew around Ravnica, 2005.
However it was meant to work for +1/+1 counters, Charge Counters and Tokens.
And I didn't say people didn't cared about Commander, do you even read fully what I wrote or am I just incomprehensible? English is not my native tongue, so I apologize if I assume I'm being straightforward and actually gets misinterpreted.
I said that some don't care what happens outside the 5 decks printed in the Commander Cycle Product - obviously they are still playing EDH but with pre-made decks and without alterations.
Me and some of my friends have bought the 5 decks from Gen 1 and we play solely with those decks for EDH (between us 5) as they are somewhat matched in power. We considered allowing some alterations but decided against it as some could easily achieve more power through a few changes than others.
As such we don't care what happens outside this cheese cover as it's not relevant to our play-group - at least for this play-group we don't care. However we may wonder and then complain why we got an inferior version of a quite comparable card which within the play-group most likely wont [Edit: break stuff], as I don't expect PWs to be in the same deck as a possible DS-reprint.
Well my opinion was that I don't understand why we had to get a global DS-like enchantment at the exact cost of DS, while they could just have printed that exact card but changed it all to "Under your control"-types. I don't like that it became symmetrical as I don't like aiding my enemies without getting a pay-off - which I obviously didn't compared to alternatives. /opinion.
I don't even know what to say at this point.
My opinion: Slivers are really strong tribal-wise, so their symmetrical abilities makes sense to keep them low costed and strong but also kinda risky. Also because if your opponent would gain benefit it would mostly mean that you would gain their benefits as well, the symmetry seemed to be two-sided if two Sliver-players faced off.
The Plague Sliver and Hivestone was printed to piss off Sliver-players as they apparently was quite strong as an archtype back before Time Spiral, so it was a way to deal with their popularity.
The new slivers are pretty overcosted (aside the few low-costed they had to print to make the tribal interaction even remotely interesting) and overall boring in effect. I'd say it was because they lost the symmetrical ability-connection AND because people during their prime-time hated Slivers, so WotC didn't wanted to make the archtype dominant again, but rather just give some additional tools for Sliver players for larger card pool formats.
Primal Vigor: Seems to me like a pointless addition to make it symmetrical. To me DS has always been a fun combo-piece which was powerful when you could combo out to something rather ridiculous. Otherwise it was quite modest - Corpsejack Menace and Parallel Lives are likewise modest unless you can combo out.
The interaction with PWs is just BS - IMO unintentional flaw they didn't catch in the up-drift.
My problem with this is they don't express simply "Meh, I don't like it"(some do, but that isn't my problem), they put down the company and player's who might utilize this.
I put 40 dollars a month towards magic for the most part. That isn't a lot. I hope to pick up all of these, so I may add a 20 to my regular spending.
Normally I don't buy prepackaged objects though, I buy a collection of cards that will directly support whatever deck I'm working on. I do not understand getting worked up over a card that can be obtained for less than 10 dollars with minimal effort. There are cards in this game that go up to 5 or 10 times that, that are sometimes staples to this game. If they don't print sol ring in here, like they did last time, are people going to get up in arms since that is a 15 dollar card? My point is that this trend is ridiculous. I remember your price comparison post, and appreciated it. I also think it's fine precedence for it to NOT be reprinted.
It becomes personal taste at this point, yes. I would state, as many have, that symmetry isn't necessarily a downside. Symmetrical cards effect everyone, and often make you much less of a target, as people want to use the community tools your offering. If someone plays this in Marath or Ghave? I may be a little put off, and attack them, as this gets close to making them go infinite. For clarification, it's a sac-for-mana trigger away from infinite.
Stranger things have happened. I was told quicksilver dagger couldn't possibly show up in Izzet vs. Golgari, yet there it is. A tiny tool kit that didn't cost much at all, giving players the beginnings of a truly nasty Niv-Mizzet commander deck. I'm fine with this, and that was a great product. Printing this next to DS would really appease a lot of people, and as much as DS is well loved, it's still under 20 bucks, so they aren't deterring many people by making it regularly more available.
DS is better for Marath, this is probably better for Gahiji, who is clearly built to play opponents against each other. With Gahiji, you get to put down more tokens, and you also get to give your opponent's creatures a boost, while offering them tokens and counters for free. All seems in-line with gahiji's effect.
Your right, it's only infinite with a sac engine, so it's only infinite if they have Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, and Utopia Mycon(at least off the top of my head, I dunno, there may be more sac get mana cards I'm not thinking of right now.)
This card doesn't have a downside, it has symmetry. I was commenting in general. One can look at symmetry as beneficial to everyone, I know a lot of green players who play Rites of Flourishing, to help develop because it takes the target off them, while letting them quietly build their resources for some turn later. This card only paints a target on your back when you are playing a general that can go infinite with it, otherwise, your helping everyone at the table. It does nothing to you personally.
Also, I didn't state that I would play this OVER anything. I WOULD absolutely play this NEXT to DS, PL, Corpsejack, and the like. I don't think it's symmetrical effect is such a deterrent that it just doesn't find a natural place in those decks. It definitely does.
And again, this is towards people who ARE LITERALLY PUTTING DOWN THE WHOLE COMPANY FOR NOT PUTTING ONE CARD IN THE SET!
Everyone else… This seems like crap.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Has anyone else noticed the wording is all screwed up?
EVERYTHING MUST BE THE WAY IT WAS WHEN I WAS A PIMPLY TEENAGER!!!!!
EDH Decks
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Phelddagrif
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Bladewing the Risen
The extra "a" means quality.
This.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Next week on MTGS: Omg why did they make a functional reprint of XXX when they could have tweaked it so it wasn't so boring by being exactly the same, this is stupid, i hate Magic.
In other news, this card is made for a different purpose than DS. It's cool in any sort of team format, and has possible interesting interactions in any multiplayer format. Why complain about cards that promote fun game states for a lot of people in the format most suited for casual fun games?
TBH I personally think people are putting too much value into the "political" aspect of the symmetrical effect it has.
Let me tell it by example: In the Gen 1 EDH-product cycle, my friends and I would target the people who put dangerous symmetrical elements on the board, especially if it would mostly benefit him. Crescendo of War and Avatar of Slaughter were often backfires as people didn't enjoy that if others ganged up on them if they were ahead that they would get so sick bonuses and thus people beat the ones who tried to be "political".
[Edit: Now Crescendo might even be a misfire as it severely increases the efficiency of Counterpunch and their tokens - which was generally seen as the archenemy for Political Puppets as they had a hard time dealing with the swarm, unless they had Propaganda. So buffing up their archenemy through the exact thing Political Puppets had struggles to deal with was not a good option.]
The only real way to keep people of your back was to stuff down efficient blockers (here also calculating cards like Propaganda and Ghostly Prison) or retaliation-systems - like Numot, the Devastator or in case of Counterpunch in 80% of games until you can repeatedly create tokens; hope your opponents feels like a bigger threat as your creeps are quite poor combat-wise.
* Doubling Season is only beneficial for you! [I admit: I didn't realize that when I first got that card...]
* Doubling Season is fun (broken?) with planeswalkers [But new people don't quite understand how it works... and it's a pain to explain each time you use it...]
* Doubling Season also works with charge counters!...
However, this one won't kill Belligerent Hatchling when he enters... or Kitchen Finks when its persist ability resolves Is the trade of worth it? ... mmm... guess
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
Who said this exactly? I've said that the new slivers are boring, and I've seen people say that, but most of them LIKE the new DS.(which it really isn't a new DS, it's symmetrical so it's much more political)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
As for Primal Vigor, I want to see it alongside Hive Mind and lots of token and counter making spells.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I'm actually assuming its in the Naya one. The naya guy is both +1/+1 counters and token friendly. Plus the second legend is essentially a lord.