House banned lists aren't a viable solution for the community at large. For people playing pickup games at their local game stores or at conventions, the official banned list is the one people go by. When people look for advice on their decks, people will make recommendations based on the global metagame that's established as a result of the official banned list and the online community. If a given card is banned by a small community, that results in the metagame for that community being completely different from the online community.
This is a bug, not a feature. If you can't take a deck from one group to another, if you can't meaningfully talk about the format with other people online, there is no broader community. Asking people to brew house rules to fix things they don't like about the format is effectively asking those people to turn their back on game stores, conventions, and the online community because they disagree with the RC.
It's not the RC's responsibility to bend to every little complaint, of course, but the best interests of the community aren't being served when the RC dismisses valid criticism with "well, you can just house rule what you don't like".
I wrote this a two and a half years ago and it remains as relevant today as ever. I seem to post it constantly.
Interesting article, was definitely a good read. I can completely see the analogy between shark-infested custard and EDH. However, I actually think its a bit narrow-minded and I would like to suggest a counter-analogy for the more competitive crowd, specifically making mention to the "guns" that you referred to in your post.
Did you ever play with Lego bionicles (I think that's how its spelled) as a child? With all of the weapons on the ends of their hands and the cool moving parts? Well I did. These bionicles looked like pretty ruthless, efficient killing machines, and they appealed to a crowd. I grew up with 3 brothers, and we all had these bionicles (a couple of them each). At one point, when we hadn't used them for a while I pulled them out of the box and decided to build what I thought of as a mega bionicle. I took parts from all sorts of bionicles and built what I would call a monstrosity of a robot. It had 6 arms each with a different weapon. There was a cannon, 3 different types of axes, a sword and a turret of some description all attached to this giant robot. Its feet were even blades that resembles something used for ice-skating! And all the parts moved! It took me ages to build it, but man was it cool when it was done. If it was real, any of those parts could kill someone, but there is nothing quite as fearsome as a giant robot with heaps of different killing mechanisms!
Some of us build our EDH decks like my bionicle. You take a bunch of cool weapons and throw them together into a big pile. Like the "guns" that you mentioned, and some people just wanting a few weapons to kill each other with some guns. Some of us like to take these guns and throw them onto a giant robot. Even though each of the guns can kill, it doesn't mean that our giant robot isn't awesome for us! Instead of us putting our sole gun onto a moon and firing it, we put lots of guns onto a kick-ass robot and its just as fun for us. Our creation is still epic and awesome, even though its not as ludicrous as your moon-mounted laser.
EDH is the only format where we can take 99 different guns and mount them onto our giant robot. While you may not see that as being as cool as shark-infested custard, it doesn't mean that we don't. The point I'm making, is that your post somewhat disparages builds which you don't feel match your custard, and you actually polarize the playerbase somewhat. Some of us just want to point our gun and kill someone, some of us just want to strap a rail-gun to a giant scorpion that swims a lava moat and some of us are in between with our giant robots. Every single person has a place and all of them can get joy in this format. Its not for you to decide which "weapons of choice" qualify (with the exception of the banlist of course, because no-one wins when you use nuclear weapons ;))
Guys...i just read through the last couple pages of this thread, and please forgive me. But this needs to be said: You all are starting to act like a bunch of STANDARD PLAYERS. I know. I hate saying that phrase. Its the ugliest phrase in the mtg comminity. But cmon. Were an edh crowd! We welcome silly cards, fun comboes, new ideas, innovation, communication, altered art, and nostalgia of cards gone by, good and bad! Dont let this new rule change turn us into a bunch of bickering people! We survived the loss of the legend rule, for celestia's sake! We can survive this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
Kinda disappointed Omniscience wasn't banned. That card is entirely degenerate in EDH. In just over 100 games with all four players having it in their deck, it was cast 64 times. The player who cast it won in 63 of 64 times (the 64th it was boomeranged). 61 of the 63 times, the player won that turn. Usually without extra turn effects.
Mind Twist. If they have no hand, they can't cast nuthin'.
I read most of the posts here and many are in view that Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial are questions for debate. I do not know how Sheldon missed both and mentioned Palinchron instead. This is why I reckon he's playing in a sheltered environment.
Sylvan Primordial is parallel to Primeval Titan in the sense it's in every green deck. "We ban it coz it's synonymous with anything green, blah blah, blah..." On hindsight, it's easy to dismiss Sylvan's Primordial's impact in a 4-player game (which I believe on average is a popular number). When a player has it enter the battlefield, 3 permanents get blown up, and the player's up 3 permanents. Why can't some people see that? It's simple math/economics. Casting an Ulamog or any creature-impacting equivalent becomes real easy. Or we can revert to THAT Deadeye Navigator to lock the win.
Someone mentioned I was thinking small regarding Deadeye Navigator; sure I could be. But any creature-based decks involving blue, Deadeye IS an auto-include. Wizards have stated printing cards for Commander would become part of the norm. We're are likely to see more creatures with enter-the-battlefield effects. Again, more of the latter are printed but "hosers" are few and far.
In a multiplayer format, spot removal is usually deemed "not good enough". Those who argued that Sylvan Primordial and Deadeye Navigator are easily answerable clearly haven't played enough multiplayer EDH. We see more Damnation effects rather than "Doom Blades". It's all about value.
I read most of the posts here and many are in view that Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial are questions for debate. I do not know how Sheldon missed both and mentioned Palinchron instead. This is why I reckon he's playing in a sheltered environment.
Sylvan Primordial is parallel to Primeval Titan in the sense it's in every green deck. "We ban it coz it's synonymous with anything green, blah blah, blah..." On hindsight, it's easy to dismiss Sylvan's Primordial's impact in a 4-player game (which I believe on average is a popular number). When a player has it enter the battlefield, 3 permanents get blown up, and the player's up 3 permanents. Why can't some people see that? It's simple math/economics. Casting an Ulamog or any creature-impacting equivalent becomes real easy. Or we can revert to THAT Deadeye Navigator to lock the win.
Someone mentioned I was thinking small regarding Deadeye Navigator; sure I could be. But any creature-based decks involving blue, Deadeye IS an auto-include. Wizards have stated printing cards for Commander would become part of the norm. We're are likely to see more creatures with enter-the-battlefield effects. Again, more of the latter are printed but "hosers" are few and far.
In a multiplayer format, spot removal is usually deemed "not good enough". Those who argued that Sylvan Primordial and Deadeye Navigator are easily answerable clearly haven't played enough multiplayer EDH. We see more Damnation effects rather than "Doom Blades". It's all about value.
I agree. I know sylvan says "noncreature permanents", but hey. I've hit 12+ targets with aura shards before. INCLUDING a different players arura shards It's all about the overall value. One time effects generally don't cut it (Board wipes and such notwithstanding)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
I run Sylvan Primordial in my Damia, Sage of Stone deck. The deck has no infinite combos that I ever use (it technically has two in the deck, but its not for lack of trying to take them out, the cards are independently good from one another, and there's no viable replacements for them printed yet), and I ever since two months ago I've decided I'd never get more than one forest off of Sylvan's trigger. Do you know what has happened? Games still flow, I can still easily lose, despite my opponents being set back a turn and me being sped up a turn. Sure, I can clone it, reanimate it and blink it, but as long as I'm only getting one land per ETB games continue to be interactive and fun for everyone involved. It's actually gotten to the point where I'm going to ask people I play against to make this a house rule (SP only grabs one land; FoF effects have to have at least one card in a pile, etc).
My deck itself is more or less a pile of interactive control creatures and only runs three counterspells plus a few other "counter" spells like Krosan Grip; and it wins about half of its games off the back of Avenger of Zendikar. I also carry around a "switchboard" of ten cards. Up to five cards I can to switch in if I'm playing 1v1 and up to five combo pieces (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Greater Good, Mana Reflection, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron) I can switch in if I'm playing against people that have infinite combos that they use to win. I keep my maindeck interactive and politically minded.
Remember, friends: the best removal you have available to you are your own words. I see political power as another intangible resource that you always have available to you, you just have to build & play your deck to support that resource.
But that's my view, and I just play online with strangers mostly, where it's impossible to implement house rules (literally). For that loss, I gain the block button - remove from sight/sound/the table anybody who plays with a mentality I dislike. Unfortunatly it's anti-social and doesn't solve the problem of disunity. But heck, I don't make the rules, I just find the flaws in them =)
If you're playing an inherently anti-social game, you're pretty much not playing EDH.
My point was that it's an anti-social way to deal with those who's mentality stifles the social interaction and enjoyment of the game within the client. It was meant to read as an example of ''a problem fixing a problem'', in that ''a poor soloution is the patchwork for a difficult problem''...
I don't think it's solving anything, hell it's probably worse to fight anti-social tendencies with even more anti-social tendencies...but hey, people can justify whatever they want.
That was the point... when you're only option left is to deal with anti-social tendancies with anti-social tendancies, that means there is a deeper, more fundemental problem somewhere that should be adressed. I'm trying to help illustrate and correlate that with similar examples of IRL play, so that more socially-inclusive ways of dealing with the problem can be shared between people.
In IRL play, people can do this social thing called communicating. It's why online EDH is a difficult beast. Without a social environment, the format simply doesn't exist except as a shell.
And no, when people act in an anti-social manner, the first response is never to treat them in kind. That doesn't achieve anything.
This is a bug, not a feature. If you can't take a deck from one group to another, if you can't meaningfully talk about the format with other people online, there is no broader community. Asking people to brew house rules to fix things they don't like about the format is effectively asking those people to turn their back on game stores, conventions, and the online community because they disagree with the RC.
It's not the RC's responsibility to bend to every little complaint, of course, but the best interests of the community aren't being served when the RC dismisses valid criticism with "well, you can just house rule what you don't like".
Seriously.. Dude... you're hurting my head.
EDH/Commander: Karn silver golem (foiled), Narset combo, Maelstrom Wanderer random goodies, Nekusar grixis draw stuff, freyalise, Gissa Zombies!, marchesa obliterate,
Prosh just wins!,
--- Will WOTC just visit Cybertron already! ----
Interesting article, was definitely a good read. I can completely see the analogy between shark-infested custard and EDH. However, I actually think its a bit narrow-minded and I would like to suggest a counter-analogy for the more competitive crowd, specifically making mention to the "guns" that you referred to in your post.
Did you ever play with Lego bionicles (I think that's how its spelled) as a child? With all of the weapons on the ends of their hands and the cool moving parts? Well I did. These bionicles looked like pretty ruthless, efficient killing machines, and they appealed to a crowd. I grew up with 3 brothers, and we all had these bionicles (a couple of them each). At one point, when we hadn't used them for a while I pulled them out of the box and decided to build what I thought of as a mega bionicle. I took parts from all sorts of bionicles and built what I would call a monstrosity of a robot. It had 6 arms each with a different weapon. There was a cannon, 3 different types of axes, a sword and a turret of some description all attached to this giant robot. Its feet were even blades that resembles something used for ice-skating! And all the parts moved! It took me ages to build it, but man was it cool when it was done. If it was real, any of those parts could kill someone, but there is nothing quite as fearsome as a giant robot with heaps of different killing mechanisms!
Some of us build our EDH decks like my bionicle. You take a bunch of cool weapons and throw them together into a big pile. Like the "guns" that you mentioned, and some people just wanting a few weapons to kill each other with some guns. Some of us like to take these guns and throw them onto a giant robot. Even though each of the guns can kill, it doesn't mean that our giant robot isn't awesome for us! Instead of us putting our sole gun onto a moon and firing it, we put lots of guns onto a kick-ass robot and its just as fun for us. Our creation is still epic and awesome, even though its not as ludicrous as your moon-mounted laser.
EDH is the only format where we can take 99 different guns and mount them onto our giant robot. While you may not see that as being as cool as shark-infested custard, it doesn't mean that we don't. The point I'm making, is that your post somewhat disparages builds which you don't feel match your custard, and you actually polarize the playerbase somewhat. Some of us just want to point our gun and kill someone, some of us just want to strap a rail-gun to a giant scorpion that swims a lava moat and some of us are in between with our giant robots. Every single person has a place and all of them can get joy in this format. Its not for you to decide which "weapons of choice" qualify (with the exception of the banlist of course, because no-one wins when you use nuclear weapons ;))
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
Mind Twist. If they have no hand, they can't cast nuthin'.
Sylvan Primordial is parallel to Primeval Titan in the sense it's in every green deck. "We ban it coz it's synonymous with anything green, blah blah, blah..." On hindsight, it's easy to dismiss Sylvan's Primordial's impact in a 4-player game (which I believe on average is a popular number). When a player has it enter the battlefield, 3 permanents get blown up, and the player's up 3 permanents. Why can't some people see that? It's simple math/economics. Casting an Ulamog or any creature-impacting equivalent becomes real easy. Or we can revert to THAT Deadeye Navigator to lock the win.
Someone mentioned I was thinking small regarding Deadeye Navigator; sure I could be. But any creature-based decks involving blue, Deadeye IS an auto-include. Wizards have stated printing cards for Commander would become part of the norm. We're are likely to see more creatures with enter-the-battlefield effects. Again, more of the latter are printed but "hosers" are few and far.
In a multiplayer format, spot removal is usually deemed "not good enough". Those who argued that Sylvan Primordial and Deadeye Navigator are easily answerable clearly haven't played enough multiplayer EDH. We see more Damnation effects rather than "Doom Blades". It's all about value.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I agree. I know sylvan says "noncreature permanents", but hey. I've hit 12+ targets with aura shards before. INCLUDING a different players arura shards It's all about the overall value. One time effects generally don't cut it (Board wipes and such notwithstanding)
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
"It's time for the ‘Smash, Smash' song!"
My deck itself is more or less a pile of interactive control creatures and only runs three counterspells plus a few other "counter" spells like Krosan Grip; and it wins about half of its games off the back of Avenger of Zendikar. I also carry around a "switchboard" of ten cards. Up to five cards I can to switch in if I'm playing 1v1 and up to five combo pieces (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Greater Good, Mana Reflection, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron) I can switch in if I'm playing against people that have infinite combos that they use to win. I keep my maindeck interactive and politically minded.
Remember, friends: the best removal you have available to you are your own words. I see political power as another intangible resource that you always have available to you, you just have to build & play your deck to support that resource.
[Semi-Competitive] GWUB "NO" GWUB 89%
Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
"No machinations, no puppet strings, no plots. Just pure, sweeping death."
—Tasigur, the Golden Fang
If you're playing an inherently anti-social game, you're pretty much not playing EDH.
I don't think it's solving anything, hell it's probably worse to fight anti-social tendencies with even more anti-social tendencies...but hey, people can justify whatever they want.
In IRL play, people can do this social thing called communicating. It's why online EDH is a difficult beast. Without a social environment, the format simply doesn't exist except as a shell.
And no, when people act in an anti-social manner, the first response is never to treat them in kind. That doesn't achieve anything.
Wow
I think I disagree with there being some sort of deeper problem that really matters.