Here's the news you're waiting for up front: There are no changes to the banned list. Commander is in a good place right now. Sure, there are some potentially unfun cards out there, but most of them either telegraph their unfun-ness, or have too much potential for awesome in the right hands to be kept down. A few months of playing with the new Legend rule suggests that it hasn't made anything more problematic. As for the current list, as a thought exercise all the RC members named a card they felt was closest to being removable from the banlist. No card got named twice.
We are making a small change to the format. For a long time, the "Optional" section has confused people. Are they official optional rules? Do they apply on a per-player or per-playgroup basis? The goal of the section was to show how flexible the format could be and that there was no problem tailoring the rules to suit your playgroup, but we feel that it wasn't accomplishing this goal in its current form. So, we're going to replace it with a "House Rules" section where we discuss the philosophy of house rules and link to some popular/and or interesting ones other groups have adopted. If your group has a house rule you'd like us to consider linking to, please suggest in in this thread.
The main impact of this change is that there won't be any endorsement of sideboards as an 'official optional' rule, though playgroups continue to be welcome to house-rule them into existence as they desire. Originally, the sideboard rules were conceived as a way to give a little more structure to competitive playgroups, but that never got much uptake; the few people who did adopt sideboards mostly did so as wishboards, and not as the intended group decision.
The League Rule also goes away, but the new Legend rule made that irrelevant already.
Theros looks like it's going to be a slam-dunk for Commander - sets dripping with favor produce great generals and support cards alike - so go out and get brewing!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Outside of competitive play wishes are supposed to grab from your collection. I dont know why people dont embrace that phikosophy more at the kitchen table.
Outside of competitive play wishes are supposed to grab from your collection. I dont know why people dont embrace that phikosophy more at the kitchen table.
No one likes playing against an entire collection. One deck is fine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
It's not as if this changes anything. Before it was just an optional rule and it's still just that. If your group used it before I don't see how this would change whether or not they use it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
The new Legend rule is pretty dumb. I can have 4 Ulamogs, the Infinite Gyre in a 4-player game.
The RC assumes that everyone is a responsible adult who makes the right decisions. That's why the right decision is to pair Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial and activating it multiple times in a turn, every active turn.
Kinda disappointed Omniscience wasn't banned. That card is entirely degenerate in EDH. In just over 100 games with all four players having it in their deck, it was cast 64 times. The player who cast it won in 63 of 64 times (the 64th it was boomeranged). 61 of the 63 times, the player won that turn. Usually without extra turn effects.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Kinda disappointed Omniscience wasn't banned. That card is entirely degenerate in EDH. In just over 100 games with all four players having it in their deck, it was cast 64 times. The player who cast it won in 63 of 64 times (the 64th it was boomeranged). 61 of the 63 times, the player won that turn. Usually without extra turn effects.
And for you they have "House Rule: Omniscience is Banned."
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I love how everyone has such vastly differing perspectives on what the degenerate cards in EDH are. I especially loved imagining the poster above and her friends sitting down to play 100 matches with Omniscience in every deck just to test a hypothesis about its power.
I love how everyone has such vastly differing perspectives on what the degenerate cards in EDH are. I especially loved imagining the poster above and her friends sitting down to play 100 matches with Omniscience in every deck just to test a hypothesis about its power.
VERY few EDH players actually care about testing their theories about what is "overpowered". For most, broken means "something that beats me that I'm too lazy to change my playstyle/deck to deal with". Just like in any other format.
Kinda disappointed Omniscience wasn't banned. That card is entirely degenerate in EDH. In just over 100 games with all four players having it in their deck, it was cast 64 times. The player who cast it won in 63 of 64 times (the 64th it was boomeranged). 61 of the 63 times, the player won that turn. Usually without extra turn effects.
Honestly, my biggest issue with Omniscience is when someone wants to slow roll the game and play cat-and-mouse with it.
If you hit Omniscience with a huge hand, you really should just be winning rather than playing out your Teferi, Tamiyo and proceeding to make everyone sit through turn cycles of "I play my entire hand, restock, then you all play nothing". Once or twice, I get it... your deck is going off. 10-20 turns? Now you're being a jackass.
There are lots of cards and combinations that end the game- just make sure they actually end the game.
Commander in a good place? Get rid of Sylvan Primordial, Iona and Vorinclex already and that statement starts to make sense.
Nah, all of those can be played fairly to good effect.
Sylvan Primordial doesn't really rise to hugely problematic without some sort of enabler.
Iona doesn't HAVE to be played to turn one or two of the players at the table into spectators... basically, you should be using it as a precision tool and not a sledgehammer.
Vorinclex doesn't have to be run out and dropped as early as possible... and that drawback makes you public enemy number 1, so while it does bog down the flow of the game, it really shouldn't "win" you a game you were set up to just about take down already.
VERY few EDH players actually care about testing their theories about what is "overpowered". For most, broken means "something that beats me that I'm too lazy to change my playstyle/deck to deal with". Just like in any other format.
Nah, honestly the whole format is degenerate and broken, but that's kind of the point. Most players realize this, and see that it's not particularly fun or interesting to bend your deck around fetching up and slapping down one of any number of hundreds of two card combos that can win the game right there... many even just keep that combo in the deck because it can be used in a fun way at a lower power level, or because there's someone who "just doesn't get it" so when they try to do their broken stupid thing, you do yours first, or use yours just to negate theirs.
The new Legend rule is pretty dumb. I can have 4 Ulamogs, the Infinite Gyre in a 4-player game.
The RC assumes that everyone is a responsible adult who makes the right decisions. That's why the right decision is to pair Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial and activating it multiple times in a turn, every active turn.
Please ban those 2 cards.
I'm curious why you'd think BOTH cards would need to be banned. One without the other becomes significantly less powerful.
Plus, that sounds a whole lot more like any issue with your playgroup than one that needs CHANGING THE RULES OF THE ENTIRE FORMAT to deal with.
Most people, after a few unfulfilling games will come around to the idea that just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should. It's kind of funny, but if you pay attention it's typically the people who want to lean on the big dumb stupid things that hate the politics and table talk that can frequently arise from a game, and will nearly pop a blood vessel and go on a huge rant about how "Group Hug" destroys and warps the format.
Here's a quick thought, if they feel the format is in a good place at the moment, why does it feel so stagnant with the new M14 legend rule, I mean sure it's nice to have a 4 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth on the board, but the fact of the matter is, this allows specific combo pieces to run rampant.
I'm sure their defintition of the format being in a good place at the moment differs from mine, but I'm just starting to get sick of seeing the same style of board state time and time again, it's getting annoying.
I'm sure their defintition of the format being in a good place at the moment differs from mine, but I'm just starting to get sick of seeing the same style of board state time and time again, it's getting annoying.
I have to say that this is an issue with the individual playgroup and not the format. If all of you are bored seeing the same cards then as a group stop using them. No one is going to police your EDH games to make sure you guys have "fun".
Here's a quick thought, if they feel the format is in a good place at the moment, why does it feel so stagnant with the new M14 legend rule, I mean sure it's nice to have a 4 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth on the board, but the fact of the matter is, this allows specific combo pieces to run rampant.
I'm sure their defintition of the format being in a good place at the moment differs from mine, but I'm just starting to get sick of seeing the same style of board state time and time again, it's getting annoying.
Nah, that's more an issue of playgroup and mindset. People have this mistaken idea that they HAVE to play some certain huge percentage of staples. They have to play a top tier commander, etc.
Lots of people seem pretty disingenuous about this. They'll complain about stale board states, everything feeling the same, but then they'll still continue to play their 100 stack of good stuff "staples in my color" with a heavily played commander. People end up feeling like they brought a knife to a gun fight. Or a gun to tank battle. Or a tank to bombing campaign. Or a bombing campaign to a nuclear standoff. Sometimes to defuse an arms race, you need to show up at the table with a squeaky clown hammer. (Even if the squeaky clown hammer spits out Joker toxin. )
I think some of you have a d-bag problem rather than an overpowered card problem. All the above cards have been played in our games and they are usually part of a combo where people win on that or their next turn. This is fine, but I'm sure there are plenty of d-bags who think its funny to make the game unplayable for everyone. My suggestion is to gang up on them.
The reason EDH metagames tend to stagnate compared to other metagames is that people get irrationally attached to their EDH decks as they stand rather than choosing to adapt them to the metagame. Essentially, people think they're too good to play answers. If someone is comboing the table, there is a good chance it's because you're letting them.
Nah, all of those can be played fairly to good effect.
That might as well refer to every card in existence. Griselbrand could be played fairly to good effect by just drawing 7 cards instead of 21. Tinker is fine to fetch a mind's eye turn 7, but if youre going for that t1 blightsteel colossus, now thats just being a jackass.
Iona doesn't HAVE to be played to turn one or two of the players at the table into spectators... basically, you should be using it as a precision tool and not a sledgehammer.
Iona was fine pre-legend ruling, now its just a mess. Shes not a precision tool, you just take a color and thats it. Nevermore is a precision tool. She hoses mono-color decks completely, and the cards nature just doesn't feel right in a format thats supposed to be about interaction with several players at the table. I dont want to create further arguments about this, Im just really surprised to see that the list didnt change at all.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I so leets, I can stop combos and win all while having fun and my opponents are having fun too!
I'm sure thats super true when you only play with the same 3-4 people every week, the combo players are bad, and you got those sweet sweet skills to run the show.
I like playing against new people in edh, cause making new friends is fun and whatever. What's not fun is guessing which is the degenerate combo deck every time I sit down to play a game with new people. And sure maybe it's my fault for not playing my degenerate combo deck every time I play people for the first time to set the tone, and hey maybe it's my tribal scarecrow deck's fault for not dealing with that turn 3 attacking Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. But i just feel that it's the rules committee's job to I dunno make the rules.
But apparently I'm wrong and things are all christmas and unicorns in magic land
Commander in a good place? Get rid of Sylvan Primordial, Iona and Vorinclex already and that statement starts to make sense.
And don't Forget Omniscience. And honestly, no ones ever mentioned it because It's so expensive but.....I've never lost a game I've Cast Primal Surge. The card is nutter butters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
So am I the only one that heard "minor rules changes" and was hoping they were finally fixing the whole color identity thing so that hybrid spells that you can hardcast using the mana colors available to your commander's color identity would be allowed? I mean, the intention with hybrid spells from the beginning was that a hybrid W/R spell could go in a any deck with access to either white or red without requiring both, and the EDH RC is actively going against the stated design goals of MTG R&D by treating them just like multicolored spells with restrictive costs.
I so leets, I can stop combos and win all while having fun and my opponents are having fun too!
I'm sure thats super true when you only play with the same 3-4 people every week, the combo players are bad, and you got those sweet sweet skills to run the show.
I like playing against new people in edh, cause making new friends is fun and whatever. What's not fun is guessing which is the degenerate combo deck every time I sit down to play a game with new people. And sure maybe it's my fault for not playing my degenerate combo deck every time I play people for the first time to set the tone, and hey maybe it's my tribal scarecrow deck's fault for not dealing with that turn 3 attacking Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. But i just feel that it's the rules committee's job to I dunno make the rules.
But apparently I'm wrong and things are all christmas and unicorns in magic land
I think the key to this is being open prior to playing
I've just made my first EDH deck and whenever I sit down with people I'm unfamiliar with I tell them "my deck is 5 colour control, tons of counterspells and planeswalkers, it gets pretty brutal at times" before we play just so that we are clear; I find things go smoother when you're open about what style of deck you're playing. Now my next objective is a non-abusive EDH deck!
Kinda disappointed Omniscience wasn't banned. That card is entirely degenerate in EDH. In just over 100 games with all four players having it in their deck, it was cast 64 times. The player who cast it won in 63 of 64 times (the 64th it was boomeranged). 61 of the 63 times, the player won that turn. Usually without extra turn effects.
You'd think after 64 times one of you would run a counterspell.
Irrelevant. You didn't know what strictly better means, but you saw some cool people use it, so you went with it. Now you want to save face by aggressively turning it into a discussion of whether or not the charm [Dimir Charm] is standard playable, which is an altogether different discussion. Very transparent, zero points for trying.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16212
So Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Living Wish, Golden Wish and Death Wish might drop in value a bit?
(Not like those last two needed it)
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyEDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
No one likes playing against an entire collection. One deck is fine.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
It's not as if this changes anything. Before it was just an optional rule and it's still just that. If your group used it before I don't see how this would change whether or not they use it.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
The RC assumes that everyone is a responsible adult who makes the right decisions. That's why the right decision is to pair Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial and activating it multiple times in a turn, every active turn.
Please ban those 2 cards.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
And for you they have "House Rule: Omniscience is Banned."
VERY few EDH players actually care about testing their theories about what is "overpowered". For most, broken means "something that beats me that I'm too lazy to change my playstyle/deck to deal with". Just like in any other format.
Honestly, my biggest issue with Omniscience is when someone wants to slow roll the game and play cat-and-mouse with it.
If you hit Omniscience with a huge hand, you really should just be winning rather than playing out your Teferi, Tamiyo and proceeding to make everyone sit through turn cycles of "I play my entire hand, restock, then you all play nothing". Once or twice, I get it... your deck is going off. 10-20 turns? Now you're being a jackass.
There are lots of cards and combinations that end the game- just make sure they actually end the game.
Nah, all of those can be played fairly to good effect.
Sylvan Primordial doesn't really rise to hugely problematic without some sort of enabler.
Iona doesn't HAVE to be played to turn one or two of the players at the table into spectators... basically, you should be using it as a precision tool and not a sledgehammer.
Vorinclex doesn't have to be run out and dropped as early as possible... and that drawback makes you public enemy number 1, so while it does bog down the flow of the game, it really shouldn't "win" you a game you were set up to just about take down already.
Nah, honestly the whole format is degenerate and broken, but that's kind of the point. Most players realize this, and see that it's not particularly fun or interesting to bend your deck around fetching up and slapping down one of any number of hundreds of two card combos that can win the game right there... many even just keep that combo in the deck because it can be used in a fun way at a lower power level, or because there's someone who "just doesn't get it" so when they try to do their broken stupid thing, you do yours first, or use yours just to negate theirs.
I'm curious why you'd think BOTH cards would need to be banned. One without the other becomes significantly less powerful.
Plus, that sounds a whole lot more like any issue with your playgroup than one that needs CHANGING THE RULES OF THE ENTIRE FORMAT to deal with.
Most people, after a few unfulfilling games will come around to the idea that just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should. It's kind of funny, but if you pay attention it's typically the people who want to lean on the big dumb stupid things that hate the politics and table talk that can frequently arise from a game, and will nearly pop a blood vessel and go on a huge rant about how "Group Hug" destroys and warps the format.
I'm sure their defintition of the format being in a good place at the moment differs from mine, but I'm just starting to get sick of seeing the same style of board state time and time again, it's getting annoying.
EDH:1 vs 1
Talrand, Sky Summoner Retired.
EDH Multiplayer
Drana. Kalastria Bloodchief
Talrand, Sky Summoner
My Blog -
Tips to Writing
Tips for Freelance Magic Writing
I have to say that this is an issue with the individual playgroup and not the format. If all of you are bored seeing the same cards then as a group stop using them. No one is going to police your EDH games to make sure you guys have "fun".
Nah, that's more an issue of playgroup and mindset. People have this mistaken idea that they HAVE to play some certain huge percentage of staples. They have to play a top tier commander, etc.
Lots of people seem pretty disingenuous about this. They'll complain about stale board states, everything feeling the same, but then they'll still continue to play their 100 stack of good stuff "staples in my color" with a heavily played commander. People end up feeling like they brought a knife to a gun fight. Or a gun to tank battle. Or a tank to bombing campaign. Or a bombing campaign to a nuclear standoff. Sometimes to defuse an arms race, you need to show up at the table with a squeaky clown hammer. (Even if the squeaky clown hammer spits out Joker toxin. )
Standard: W/R Aggro
That might as well refer to every card in existence. Griselbrand could be played fairly to good effect by just drawing 7 cards instead of 21. Tinker is fine to fetch a mind's eye turn 7, but if youre going for that t1 blightsteel colossus, now thats just being a jackass.
Yeah except that there are those enablers, which assure he lands much sooner than t7.
Iona was fine pre-legend ruling, now its just a mess. Shes not a precision tool, you just take a color and thats it. Nevermore is a precision tool. She hoses mono-color decks completely, and the cards nature just doesn't feel right in a format thats supposed to be about interaction with several players at the table. I dont want to create further arguments about this, Im just really surprised to see that the list didnt change at all.
I so leets, I can stop combos and win all while having fun and my opponents are having fun too!
I'm sure thats super true when you only play with the same 3-4 people every week, the combo players are bad, and you got those sweet sweet skills to run the show.
I like playing against new people in edh, cause making new friends is fun and whatever. What's not fun is guessing which is the degenerate combo deck every time I sit down to play a game with new people. And sure maybe it's my fault for not playing my degenerate combo deck every time I play people for the first time to set the tone, and hey maybe it's my tribal scarecrow deck's fault for not dealing with that turn 3 attacking Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. But i just feel that it's the rules committee's job to I dunno make the rules.
But apparently I'm wrong and things are all christmas and unicorns in magic land
And don't Forget Omniscience. And honestly, no ones ever mentioned it because It's so expensive but.....I've never lost a game I've Cast Primal Surge. The card is nutter butters.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
I think the key to this is being open prior to playing
I've just made my first EDH deck and whenever I sit down with people I'm unfamiliar with I tell them "my deck is 5 colour control, tons of counterspells and planeswalkers, it gets pretty brutal at times" before we play just so that we are clear; I find things go smoother when you're open about what style of deck you're playing. Now my next objective is a non-abusive EDH deck!
You'd think after 64 times one of you would run a counterspell.
Its like blue is the only color with good counterspells or something.
Not everyone wants to run blue.