Grave-Troll being banned while Dread Return is banned is pointless, since Troll is mediocre without Return, at best. What're you going to do, Unburial Rites the Troll? Seriously.
Nacatl being banned is a moot point because as long as things like Bolt, Path, and the like exist, Nacatl is not as good as WotC thinks it is. Hell, Abrupt Decay kills our little kitty friend, kills it dead.
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
Dredge would be useless if magic accidentally made archive trap say target player. Then reanimator decks would be king of everything.
Even if Archive Trap's text was changed to say that, neither deck would be interested in playing the card. Both decks already have far more consistent and powerful enablers, none of which contain the requisite of an opponent searching their library. Both decks optimally would like to either kill the opponent before they play their first land, or have them essentially dead on board during their next untap phase.
Also, Life from the Loam and Darkblast.
I believe the blue card you were thinking of is Chancellor of the Spires.
Personally, I don't think there's much of a point to unbanning anything in modern, for any reason at all.
Unbanning powerful cards doesn't accomplish anything but risk damaging the format. Better safe than sorry.
So let's look forward rather than backward. I know people have their pet cards like Ancestral Visions or Bitterblossom that are on the cusp, but really you can't argue that leaving them banned is somehow having some adverse effect on the format. Just because a card is fun to play with doesn't justify the risk of re-introducing it into the format.
Also, rules question real fast, but even if Batterskull was in and you played her off of Stoneforge without them removing her, couldn't they just Abrupt decay the token it equips to, rendering Batterskull useless?
No, because you can pay 3 to return Batterskull to your hand to 'forge it out again.
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No, because you can pay 3 to return Batterskull to your hand to 'forge it out again.
Also, in a format where Celestial Colonnade is a real win condition, Batterskull can just equip to something else. Without Wasteland to keep people off 5 mana, Batterskull gets even better than it is in Legacy.
Stoneforge should never be unbanned in Modern. It will warp the format around it. You either play it or you lose.
I find it amusing how Stoneforge + Batterskull will warp the format considering the vast amount of artifact-destruction at our disposal (yes I know the controller can bounce it).
If Theros-block could bring us a mana-effective creature who can optionally destroy an artifact on entry, we'd have a perfectly good answer for it.
We already have Pithing Needle to hose Stoneforge, Scooze, DRS and possibly more?
I know Stoneforge is incredibly powerful but are we really that sure that it will kill the format instead of just shake it up a bit?
What I dislike most is the easily splashability of it but perhaps enough useful and hosing cards will keep it in check.
I find it amusing how Stoneforge + Batterskull will warp the format considering the vast amount of artifact-destruction at our disposal (yes I know the controller can bounce it).
Good thing there's no artifact destruction in Legacy or Stoneforge wouldn't be any good.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
Good thing there's no artifact destruction in Legacy or Stoneforge wouldn't be any good.
Exactly my point. Even with such a vast amount of answers the threat still marches on, apparently because those answers are too slow or in "odd" colors or because they would otherwise be without use (dead draws).
From a quick look Stoneforge appears in a select few top-decks with Batterskull and Jitte, which are some pretty neat statistics.
And the best answer seems to be Krosan Grip but that is quite expensive and demands Green.
However if everyone in Modern had to pick up Stoneforge if she became unbanned, then the attractiveness of having Naturalize or whatever in MB seems to increase.
But like I said if Theros brings a good creature with an optional Aura Shards it could easily make a counter-response to her for that/those colors.
Exactly my point. Even with such a vast amount of answers the threat still marches on, apparently because those answers are too slow or in "odd" colors or because they would otherwise be without use (dead draws).
From a quick look Stoneforge appears in a select few top-decks with Batterskull and Jitte, which are some pretty neat statistics.
And the best answer seems to be Krosan Grip but that is quite expensive and demands Green.
However if everyone in Modern had to pick up Stoneforge if she became unbanned, then the attractiveness of having Naturalize or whatever in MB seems to increase.
But like I said if Theros brings a good creature with an optional Aura Shards it could easily make a counter-response to her for that/those colors.
Pod and Affinity force a tremendous amount of hate allready right now, as Pridemage and the Aura Shards Sliver.
Also we have Abrupt Decay and all its sort, pretty easy maindeck cards.
Stoneforge is still pretty strong, you tutor for a small amount of toolbox equipments that all are pretty damn strong.
Its an annoying card for that reason alone. Most likely would play a bunch in Pod aswell, to tutor and provide just another angle of attack with pur card advantage.
Ban worthy ? Sure, but not because its crazy powerfull, but because its a card that every white deck would play and maindeck single equipments to tutor, which actual removes deck quantity.
More or less same reason Green Sun Zenith is a problem in green, you just play it as its super flexible, they are clearly not powerfull, flexibility is key.
Same deal for Ponder/Preordain cycle, they just get more problematic if you have "all" available, cut some and you allready remove consistency of combo decks, cards that are auto-includes should allways have a deeper look if they help the format, or just become "instant-includes" that restrict many others.
When would modern's banlist be overlong? What would the adverse effect be like? Why would a long banlist cause an adverse effect?
One of the issues is that it creates a stygma against the format that if you build a powerful deck the pieces will get banned. A long list scares people away from the format for fear that the cards they use might get banned because WoTC has set a very blurry line with respect to what cards are bad. You'll also notice that a lot of the cards people are clamoring for unbans are cards were on the early lists. These are cards that haven't seen play in the new meta, seem less powerful then options we have now, and were potentially wrongfully banned right out of the gate. Ancestral Visions, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Bitterblossom. Grave troll in particular, due in part to the massive amount of mainboard grave hate now present in the modern format.
One of the issues is that it creates a stygma against the format that if you build a powerful deck the pieces will get banned. A long list scares people away from the format for fear that the cards they use might get banned because WoTC has set a very blurry line with respect to what cards are bad. You'll also notice that a lot of the cards people are clamoring for unbans are cards were on the early lists. These are cards that haven't seen play in the new meta, seem less powerful then options we have now, and were potentially wrongfully banned right out of the gate. Ancestral Visions, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Bitterblossom. Grave troll in particular, due in part to the massive amount of mainboard grave hate now present in the modern format.
I agree with you somewhat. Those 3 could probably be unbanned and good decks shouldn't just be banned. But I find it silly that people say a whole format is at fault when a few cards are banned. Fact is the less really broken overpowered cards like stoneforge, jace and nacatl exist, the more people can discover NEW cards.
So instead of 'refreshing' the format by unbanning things like that, it would just stymie exploration and innovation more, and it would be Jace/stoneforge decks vs BGw decks.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern The metagame is very diverse, frankly almost as much so as legacy based on MTGO results. Maybe in paper its harder to hit a full 15 round tournament with 20 different decks like legacy, but still.
Green is the best colour in modern, just like blue is the best colour in legacy. People just need to accept that. I guess people just like blue, jace and force of will so much they **** on modern?
Stoneforge is still pretty strong, you tutor for a small amount of toolbox equipments that all are pretty damn strong.
More or less same reason Green Sun Zenith is a problem in green, you just play it as its super flexible, they are clearly not powerfull, flexibility is key.
So basically she's played as a Steelshaper's Gift and the chance to cheese Batterskull out cheap and work at instant-speed, which matters a lot in a control shell.
What other equipment in Modern would she fetch btw? Swords, I guess.
Same deal for Ponder/Preordain cycle, they just get more problematic if you have "all" available, cut some and you allready remove consistency of combo decks, cards that are auto-includes should allways have a deeper look if they help the format, or just become "instant-includes" that restrict many others.
I know the reasoning behind banning Ponder and Preordain on basis that they provide too much consistency by digging deep into your deck.
Still I find it a bit fuzzy about the "instant-includes narrows the spectrum in which we can create decks".
Atm it seems like certain archtypes are vastly outperforming others. Jund in general or just GB is often included in top-decks in Modern these days, primarily on grounds of: Bob, Goyf, Scooze, (DRS), Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize. These all seems to be more or less auto-includes in Rock or Jund-decks, MB or SB.
Some of the same arguments can be said about UWx control.
So I'm not entirely buying that "to keep a healthy format we ban auto-includes in decks who runs auto-includes' colors".
All I would say was to warn a test-run where Stoneforge would be legalized for Modern in a test-window of 3-4 months and after that decide whether or not the ban is justified (aka if everyone jumps the wagon to go White to snatch up Batterskulls and Swords once again and it dominates the format).
So basically she's played as a Steelshaper's Gift and the chance to cheese Batterskull out cheap and work at instant-speed, which matters a lot in a control shell.
What other equipment in Modern would she fetch btw? Swords, I guess.
I know the reasoning behind banning Ponder and Preordain on basis that they provide too much consistency by digging deep into your deck.
Still I find it a bit fuzzy about the "instant-includes narrows the spectrum in which we can create decks".
Atm it seems like certain archtypes are vastly outperforming others. Jund in general or just GB is often included in top-decks in Modern these days, primarily on grounds of: Bob, Goyf, Scooze, (DRS), Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize. These all seems to be more or less auto-includes in Rock or Jund-decks, MB or SB.
Some of the same arguments can be said about UWx control.
So I'm not entirely buying that "to keep a healthy format we ban auto-includes in decks who runs auto-includes' colors".
All I would say was to warn a test-run where Stoneforge would be legalized for Modern in a test-window of 3-4 months and after that decide whether or not the ban is justified (aka if everyone jumps the wagon to go White to snatch up Batterskulls and Swords once again and it dominates the format).
The problem is that the super power hated BG shell is so light on required mana symbols(outside of ooze and that isn't that big of a deal) you could run bolt, helix, stoneforge, tarmo, dark confidant and more.
It doesn't do what people want, which is weaken the BG decks. Frankly that can't be done without banning tarmogoyf. They existed before DRS, they existed after BBE.
Sure stoneforge slightly helps hatebears or UW control, but those archetypes are already strong enough to win tournaments. If we are unbanning it should be GGT, Bitterblossom possibly, and Preordain type cards.
Nacatl being banned is a moot point because as long as things like Bolt, Path, and the like exist, Nacatl is not as good as WotC thinks it is. Hell, Abrupt Decay kills our little kitty friend, kills it dead.
Narcomoeba + Golgari Grave-Troll + Dread Return + Bridge from Below (+ Flame-kin Zealot).
You just dredge with whatever dredge cards and you make absurd amounts of dudes, a huge Troll, and use Zealot to get hasty beats in.
Even if Archive Trap's text was changed to say that, neither deck would be interested in playing the card. Both decks already have far more consistent and powerful enablers, none of which contain the requisite of an opponent searching their library. Both decks optimally would like to either kill the opponent before they play their first land, or have them essentially dead on board during their next untap phase.
Also, Life from the Loam and Darkblast.
I believe the blue card you were thinking of is Chancellor of the Spires.
Unbanning powerful cards doesn't accomplish anything but risk damaging the format. Better safe than sorry.
So let's look forward rather than backward. I know people have their pet cards like Ancestral Visions or Bitterblossom that are on the cusp, but really you can't argue that leaving them banned is somehow having some adverse effect on the format. Just because a card is fun to play with doesn't justify the risk of re-introducing it into the format.
No, because you can pay 3 to return Batterskull to your hand to 'forge it out again.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
Also, in a format where Celestial Colonnade is a real win condition, Batterskull can just equip to something else. Without Wasteland to keep people off 5 mana, Batterskull gets even better than it is in Legacy.
Standard: W/R Aggro
If Theros-block could bring us a mana-effective creature who can optionally destroy an artifact on entry, we'd have a perfectly good answer for it.
We already have Pithing Needle to hose Stoneforge, Scooze, DRS and possibly more?
I know Stoneforge is incredibly powerful but are we really that sure that it will kill the format instead of just shake it up a bit?
What I dislike most is the easily splashability of it but perhaps enough useful and hosing cards will keep it in check.
Good thing there's no artifact destruction in Legacy or Stoneforge wouldn't be any good.
Standard: W/R Aggro
From a quick look Stoneforge appears in a select few top-decks with Batterskull and Jitte, which are some pretty neat statistics.
And the best answer seems to be Krosan Grip but that is quite expensive and demands Green.
However if everyone in Modern had to pick up Stoneforge if she became unbanned, then the attractiveness of having Naturalize or whatever in MB seems to increase.
But like I said if Theros brings a good creature with an optional Aura Shards it could easily make a counter-response to her for that/those colors.
Pod and Affinity force a tremendous amount of hate allready right now, as Pridemage and the Aura Shards Sliver.
Also we have Abrupt Decay and all its sort, pretty easy maindeck cards.
Stoneforge is still pretty strong, you tutor for a small amount of toolbox equipments that all are pretty damn strong.
Its an annoying card for that reason alone. Most likely would play a bunch in Pod aswell, to tutor and provide just another angle of attack with pur card advantage.
Ban worthy ? Sure, but not because its crazy powerfull, but because its a card that every white deck would play and maindeck single equipments to tutor, which actual removes deck quantity.
More or less same reason Green Sun Zenith is a problem in green, you just play it as its super flexible, they are clearly not powerfull, flexibility is key.
Same deal for Ponder/Preordain cycle, they just get more problematic if you have "all" available, cut some and you allready remove consistency of combo decks, cards that are auto-includes should allways have a deeper look if they help the format, or just become "instant-includes" that restrict many others.
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One of the issues is that it creates a stygma against the format that if you build a powerful deck the pieces will get banned. A long list scares people away from the format for fear that the cards they use might get banned because WoTC has set a very blurry line with respect to what cards are bad. You'll also notice that a lot of the cards people are clamoring for unbans are cards were on the early lists. These are cards that haven't seen play in the new meta, seem less powerful then options we have now, and were potentially wrongfully banned right out of the gate. Ancestral Visions, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Bitterblossom. Grave troll in particular, due in part to the massive amount of mainboard grave hate now present in the modern format.
I agree with you somewhat. Those 3 could probably be unbanned and good decks shouldn't just be banned. But I find it silly that people say a whole format is at fault when a few cards are banned. Fact is the less really broken overpowered cards like stoneforge, jace and nacatl exist, the more people can discover NEW cards.
So instead of 'refreshing' the format by unbanning things like that, it would just stymie exploration and innovation more, and it would be Jace/stoneforge decks vs BGw decks.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern The metagame is very diverse, frankly almost as much so as legacy based on MTGO results. Maybe in paper its harder to hit a full 15 round tournament with 20 different decks like legacy, but still.
Green is the best colour in modern, just like blue is the best colour in legacy. People just need to accept that. I guess people just like blue, jace and force of will so much they **** on modern?
What other equipment in Modern would she fetch btw? Swords, I guess.
I know the reasoning behind banning Ponder and Preordain on basis that they provide too much consistency by digging deep into your deck.
Still I find it a bit fuzzy about the "instant-includes narrows the spectrum in which we can create decks".
Atm it seems like certain archtypes are vastly outperforming others. Jund in general or just GB is often included in top-decks in Modern these days, primarily on grounds of: Bob, Goyf, Scooze, (DRS), Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize. These all seems to be more or less auto-includes in Rock or Jund-decks, MB or SB.
Some of the same arguments can be said about UWx control.
So I'm not entirely buying that "to keep a healthy format we ban auto-includes in decks who runs auto-includes' colors".
All I would say was to warn a test-run where Stoneforge would be legalized for Modern in a test-window of 3-4 months and after that decide whether or not the ban is justified (aka if everyone jumps the wagon to go White to snatch up Batterskulls and Swords once again and it dominates the format).
The problem is that the super power hated BG shell is so light on required mana symbols(outside of ooze and that isn't that big of a deal) you could run bolt, helix, stoneforge, tarmo, dark confidant and more.
It doesn't do what people want, which is weaken the BG decks. Frankly that can't be done without banning tarmogoyf. They existed before DRS, they existed after BBE.
Sure stoneforge slightly helps hatebears or UW control, but those archetypes are already strong enough to win tournaments. If we are unbanning it should be GGT, Bitterblossom possibly, and Preordain type cards.