I figured that I would have been pelted with stones by now. Heck, I think somebody even threw candy at me. Awesome! This went better than expected.
@Starforger: I can agree with you to an extent. I think that JtMS and Bitterblossom are actually less degenerate than Stoneforge Mystic. Without Bloodbraid Elf, Jace is much more threatening in the format, but they could unban Bloodbraid as well in that case. Stoneforge is so easy to splash, and so easy to abuse. She doesn't really help control decks any more than she helps any other deck with white. Bitterblossom seems to be the most reasonable "control" card to unban. If the Fae begin to dominate, ban Spellstutter Sprite. She's the glue that that hold faerie decks together anyway.
If by every archtype you mean mono blue decks dominating then yes you could have played every archtype.
I'm so happy to see cloudpost gone.
The most dominant blue decks are faeries and other tempo decks. Those won't be touched by this at all.
Cloudpost could be played in any color and enabled multiple cool decks that are now gone. Pauper had aggro, combo, and control. Apparently wotc has taken enough notice of the format now so they've decided to kill combo an control in another format.
Modern was never a good format and it never will be. I seriously love how the format has become so terrible that everyone practically demands cards be unbanned in order to make it halfway interesting again.
Don't play formats that COULD be good; play ones that ARE good. <3 Legacy.
Modern was never a good format and it never will be. I seriously love how the format has become so terrible that everyone practically demands cards be unbanned in order to make it halfway interesting again.
Don't play formats that COULD be good; play ones that ARE good. <3 Legacy.
Good point, legacy is great. Now if they could only do something about that there reserved list it would be even better
If by every archtype you mean mono blue decks dominating then yes you could have played every archtype.
I'm so happy to see cloudpost gone.
The most dominant blue decks are faeries and other tempo decks. Those won't be touched by this at all.
Cloudpost could be played in any color and enabled multiple cool decks that are now gone. Pauper had aggro, combo, and control. Apparently wotc has taken enough notice of the format now so they've decided to kill combo an control in another format.
Cloudpost eliminated the possibilty of any midrange deck to succeed. As midrange now can exist to help keep aggro in check, control decks will be developed (because amazingly enough new decks will come out of this contrary to your belief) to fight the midrange, and a good metagame will start to exist. Cloudpost competely invalidated many startegies.
It's crazy that some people are suggesting that there be a restricted list in Modern. Restricting cards takes a ton of skill out of the game. It becomes "Who was lucky enough to draw their über-powerful card first?", not "Who was more skilled in their technical play and deckbuilding?"
WotC has tried very hard to make Modern what it is today. Banning the fetch would throw the format into disarray and they have to start all over again. Not gonna happen.
They also hate games getting slowed down by excessive fetching and shuffling. It isn't outside the realm of possibility for them to find themselves on the chopping block. Especially if the format starts to find itself in the situation where the only decks not running fetches are mono-__________ and budget decks.
Just unban cards in Modern. There are many cards collecting cobwebs on the Modern ban list for no reason. Just because Wild Nacatl was in "too many decks" a couple of years ago doesn't mean Wild Nacatl is going to break the format. Pushing the format away from GBx is a GOOD thing. Since 4 color aggro is not really viable with shocklands, Nacatl alone at least breaks up the GBx kernel for decks.
Bitterblossom makes Faeries a contender, and also makes BWx Blossom/Lingering Souls decks a real thing. Vision gives people more reason to play Ux control decks- and now that BBE is banned it's a safe unban.
Wild Nacatl wasn't banned purely for power reasons. It is very restrictive in that its the best 1 drop aggro creature and you need mountains and plains to play it so naya aggro was pretty much your only option for aggro decks.
Your not playing nacatl in a a deck without plains and mountains
Wild Nacatl wasn't banned purely for power reasons. It is very restrictive in that its the best 1 drop aggro creature and you need mountains and plains to play it so naya aggro was pretty much your only option for aggro decks.
Your not playing nacatl in a a deck without plains and mountains
Its "reason" was that zoo was the only "viable" aggro deck.
They banned it and zoo kinda became bad, especially as Jund became much better to beat it.
Only real aggro deck after that is Robots, so we didnt really gain anything, not more aggro decks, just another, midrange still beats aggro and is strong enough.
Also the pseudo combo deck that is Pod, plays like midrange with a combo finish.
Even some Splinter Twin decks can aim to play like a Midrange deck with a combo (Pod + Twin for example).
You clearly need maindeck stuff against this combo decks and a viable aggro deck without massiv hate bears would require a pretty good turn 3 clock, otherwise you just aim for one of the combo like decks (which still play fair creatures that can win without going combo).
Modern is defined as a format with a viable turn 4 combo turn, thats the "speed" of the format.
Any deck that wins consistent turn 3 has something that is "too broken".
So in the end we have a ton of decks that play like Midrange, full of hate against combo decks, toolboxes and some kind of combo (be it twin, pod, melira or aiming for hexproof powered creatures).
You haters are nuts. Just because a couple cards are banned doesn't mean Modern isn't "interesting" or "viable." Just look at, for instance, the resurgence of control decks like America Control or Cruel Control, despite control having been declared dead in the format. Or go throw together an 8rack deck and find out why it's the next tier one deck.
There are thousands upon thousands of cards in modern. If you can't make a deck when you have access to all of them but 30-ish, you need to work on your deckbuilding.
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I mainly play Standard and Modern.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
You haters are nuts. Just because a couple cards are banned doesn't mean Modern isn't "interesting" or "viable." Just look at, for instance, the resurgence of control decks like America Control or Cruel Control, despite control having been declared dead in the format. Or go throw together an 8rack deck and find out why it's the next tier one deck.
There are thousands upon thousands of cards in modern. If you can't make a deck when you have access to all of them but 30-ish, you need to work on your deckbuilding.
Yeah, the whole "nacatl invalidates other aggro" has turned out to be bunk. Robots will still exist without nacatl. There is burn, but there is no other aggro. Domain Zoo would be bolstered by nacatl returning, but nacatl wouldn't break anything.
I never thought I'd find myself in this camp, but I believe both ancestral visions and jtms should come off the banlist. We have more ways to deal with walkers than we did. Visions only sees legacy play because of cascade.
JTMS is the dicey one. He would immediately create a plethora of control decks. Jund would finally have a trump. I don't think that would be so bad for the format. Before scars Jace was not busted. I think we could maintain a balance of format with JTMS.
In short, I think it would be safe to unban the following from less to more risky: Ancestral, nacatl, bitterblossom, jace.
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RR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Yeah, the whole "nacatl invalidates other aggro" has turned out to be bunk. Robots will still exist without nacatl. There is burn, but there is no other aggro. Domain Zoo would be bolstered by nacatl returning, but nacatl wouldn't break anything.
I never thought I'd find myself in this camp, but I believe both ancestral visions and jtms should come off the banlist. We have more ways to deal with walkers than we did. Visions only sees legacy play because of cascade.
JTMS is the dicey one. He would immediately create a plethora of control decks. Jund would finally have a trump. I don't think that would be so bad for the format. Before scars Jace was not busted. I think we could maintain a balance of format with JTMS.
In short, I think it would be safe to unban the following from less to more risky: Ancestral, nacatl, bitterblossom, jace.
Don't forget Golgari Grave-Troll. That card has no business being on the banned list. Also, what's to stop Jund from becoming BUG midrange and using Jace if he's unbanned?
The reason I advocate for the release of Stoneforge (with a possible cautionary ban of Batterskull) is that I believe that if Goyf, Bob, and Snapcaster are legal then so should she. Also, other than Batterskull, what can she tutor up that is a threat to G/B currently? If she goes for a sword, they'll Abrupt Decay it or kill her before she can put it onto the field. Not much of a threat. Also, rules question real fast, but even if Batterskull was in and you played her off of Stoneforge without them removing her, couldn't they just Abrupt decay the token it equips to, rendering Batterskull useless?
@neonordance
Are you sane? Did you look at the same GP I'm looking at? Where were the interesting and viable new decks? Also, what resurgence of control decks are you talking about? You mean the few "rebels" that brought control (and I use this term VERY loosely) decks and...did what again? I can't seem to find anything about how well they did and how awesome they were in the top 8. Wait....
Also, just because there are thousands of cards in a format, doesn't mean they are all playable. Unless you've got some top secret Tier 1 Razor Boomerang deck you want to share?
In case anyone can't tell, I'm using sarcasm at @neonordance. Also, Nacatl is probably safe to come off so I'll add her to my list. So now it's: Jace, Stoneforge, Bitterblossom, Golgari Grave-Troll, and Nacatl. I'm still iffy on Ancestral. Also, wasn't the reason given why Ponder and Preordain are banned is because they REALLY help Storm decks? Just need some clarification on those.
But why ban cards in pauper? I mean your whole deck is commons, its not like you can win in turn 2 right? Or can u?
Actually you can One of the more simply comboes: Tireless Tribe and About Face/Inside Out. It demands a little luck (just a hint) and 100% to be on the draw unless you hold Inside Out.
Plays like this:
Turn 1: Plains -> Tireless Tribe
Turn 2: Mountain -> Attack with Tribe, Use Inside Out, Discard 5 cards to Tribe to deal 21 damage.
I can understand why they ban cards in modern and legacy. I can also understand why they ban cards in commander (although I would love to run sway of stars). But why ban cards in pauper? I mean your whole deck is commons, its not like you can win in turn 2 right? Or can u?
The logic behind bans is always the same regardless of format, to keep a healthy metagame going. Or at least they try.
Well, imagine cloudpost is a common card...yet it was deemed too powerfull to be available even in modern. The cloudpost engine is pretty damn strong. If you were not able to beat it sooner than they hit absurd mana and starts reccuring lands for lifegain, cast flashbacks from yards and Ulamog's crusher, than you plain simply lose. I remember playing spreading seasin the SB just because this deck
I think anything to do with fast mana should be scrutinized. Legacy, admittedly, is an awesome and skilled format. There's fast mana too, but it's mitigated by Wasteland, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and Force of Will.
Banning Wild Nacatl is possibly the worst thing they've done. The staple decks are Melira Pod, Raka Tempo/Control, Affinity, Jund variants. The rest are tier 2 or worse. What's wrong with ***** cat???
I think this is close to Wizards' point of view, regardless of what they say. Anyway i could agree or disagree with each of those views... that's a diferent matter.
Now, please, unban GGT...
Enablers of consistent too fast decks:
Ancient Den, Great Furnace, Seat of the Synod, Tree of Tales, Vault of Whispers
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Chrome Mox
Ponder
Preordain
Key pieces of consistent too fast combos:
Sword of the Meek
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Hypergenesis
Blazing Shoal
Borderline overpowered and extremely consistent, a.k.a. BORING:
Bitterblossom
Bloodbraid Elf
Sensei's Divining Top
Jace the Mind Sculptor
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Denials/Warpers:
Mental Misstep (denies every turn 1)
Wild Nacatl (invalidates every other aggro building)
Umezawa's Jitte (kills aggro)
Ancestral Visions (bonkers with cascade, turn 1 dependant)
Punishing Fire (kills aggro)
Second Sunrise (opponent doesn't play)
*************************************
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS?:
Golgari Grave-Troll (really, wtf?)
It is nearly impossible to say "unban X to make the format better." That takes hundreds of hours of testing. I agree that the format is particularly bad right now, amd they need to do something to make other decks more viable. Blue in particular is close to nonexistent, but unbanning Jace is not the answer. We'll still have Deathrite, 'goyf, Bob decks, except in place of BBE we'll have the much more powerful Jace. The format will be nearly the same.
I don't know the answer. My hope is that new cards are introduced to the format through unbanning or new sets, but if it is unbanning, WOTC should spend those hours trying to see how the format is impacted. You can't theorycraft this.
I agree on the Troll too. Wizards has its panties stuck in the bunch on that one.
Man, im dating myself all over the site today. I never saw it in action, so could anyone succinctly explain to me why dredge was super powerful?
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I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
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I figured that I would have been pelted with stones by now. Heck, I think somebody even threw candy at me. Awesome! This went better than expected.
@Starforger: I can agree with you to an extent. I think that JtMS and Bitterblossom are actually less degenerate than Stoneforge Mystic. Without Bloodbraid Elf, Jace is much more threatening in the format, but they could unban Bloodbraid as well in that case. Stoneforge is so easy to splash, and so easy to abuse. She doesn't really help control decks any more than she helps any other deck with white. Bitterblossom seems to be the most reasonable "control" card to unban. If the Fae begin to dominate, ban Spellstutter Sprite. She's the glue that that hold faerie decks together anyway.
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The most dominant blue decks are faeries and other tempo decks. Those won't be touched by this at all.
Cloudpost could be played in any color and enabled multiple cool decks that are now gone. Pauper had aggro, combo, and control. Apparently wotc has taken enough notice of the format now so they've decided to kill combo an control in another format.
Don't play formats that COULD be good; play ones that ARE good. <3 Legacy.
Good point, legacy is great. Now if they could only do something about that there reserved list it would be even better
Cloudpost eliminated the possibilty of any midrange deck to succeed. As midrange now can exist to help keep aggro in check, control decks will be developed (because amazingly enough new decks will come out of this contrary to your belief) to fight the midrange, and a good metagame will start to exist. Cloudpost competely invalidated many startegies.
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I lol'd when I read this and remembered that freaking Preordain is banned.
"Hello...Ponder? Yeah, it's me, Preordain. You win. Bye."
They also hate games getting slowed down by excessive fetching and shuffling. It isn't outside the realm of possibility for them to find themselves on the chopping block. Especially if the format starts to find itself in the situation where the only decks not running fetches are mono-__________ and budget decks.
Wild Nacatl wasn't banned purely for power reasons. It is very restrictive in that its the best 1 drop aggro creature and you need mountains and plains to play it so naya aggro was pretty much your only option for aggro decks.
Your not playing nacatl in a a deck without plains and mountains
Its "reason" was that zoo was the only "viable" aggro deck.
They banned it and zoo kinda became bad, especially as Jund became much better to beat it.
Only real aggro deck after that is Robots, so we didnt really gain anything, not more aggro decks, just another, midrange still beats aggro and is strong enough.
Also the pseudo combo deck that is Pod, plays like midrange with a combo finish.
Even some Splinter Twin decks can aim to play like a Midrange deck with a combo (Pod + Twin for example).
You clearly need maindeck stuff against this combo decks and a viable aggro deck without massiv hate bears would require a pretty good turn 3 clock, otherwise you just aim for one of the combo like decks (which still play fair creatures that can win without going combo).
Modern is defined as a format with a viable turn 4 combo turn, thats the "speed" of the format.
Any deck that wins consistent turn 3 has something that is "too broken".
So in the end we have a ton of decks that play like Midrange, full of hate against combo decks, toolboxes and some kind of combo (be it twin, pod, melira or aiming for hexproof powered creatures).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
There are thousands upon thousands of cards in modern. If you can't make a deck when you have access to all of them but 30-ish, you need to work on your deckbuilding.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
Let me know when you innovate Modern.
It's not THAT hard; you simply take the second best strategy after one of Modern's many inevitable ban announcements.
I never thought I'd find myself in this camp, but I believe both ancestral visions and jtms should come off the banlist. We have more ways to deal with walkers than we did. Visions only sees legacy play because of cascade.
JTMS is the dicey one. He would immediately create a plethora of control decks. Jund would finally have a trump. I don't think that would be so bad for the format. Before scars Jace was not busted. I think we could maintain a balance of format with JTMS.
In short, I think it would be safe to unban the following from less to more risky: Ancestral, nacatl, bitterblossom, jace.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
Don't forget Golgari Grave-Troll. That card has no business being on the banned list. Also, what's to stop Jund from becoming BUG midrange and using Jace if he's unbanned?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The reason I advocate for the release of Stoneforge (with a possible cautionary ban of Batterskull) is that I believe that if Goyf, Bob, and Snapcaster are legal then so should she. Also, other than Batterskull, what can she tutor up that is a threat to G/B currently? If she goes for a sword, they'll Abrupt Decay it or kill her before she can put it onto the field. Not much of a threat. Also, rules question real fast, but even if Batterskull was in and you played her off of Stoneforge without them removing her, couldn't they just Abrupt decay the token it equips to, rendering Batterskull useless?
@neonordance
Are you sane? Did you look at the same GP I'm looking at? Where were the interesting and viable new decks? Also, what resurgence of control decks are you talking about? You mean the few "rebels" that brought control (and I use this term VERY loosely) decks and...did what again? I can't seem to find anything about how well they did and how awesome they were in the top 8. Wait....
Also, just because there are thousands of cards in a format, doesn't mean they are all playable. Unless you've got some top secret Tier 1 Razor Boomerang deck you want to share?
In case anyone can't tell, I'm using sarcasm at @neonordance. Also, Nacatl is probably safe to come off so I'll add her to my list. So now it's: Jace, Stoneforge, Bitterblossom, Golgari Grave-Troll, and Nacatl. I'm still iffy on Ancestral. Also, wasn't the reason given why Ponder and Preordain are banned is because they REALLY help Storm decks? Just need some clarification on those.
Tireless Tribe and About Face/Inside Out. It demands a little luck (just a hint) and 100% to be on the draw unless you hold Inside Out.
Plays like this:
Turn 1: Plains -> Tireless Tribe
Turn 2: Mountain -> Attack with Tribe, Use Inside Out, Discard 5 cards to Tribe to deal 21 damage.
The logic behind bans is always the same regardless of format, to keep a healthy metagame going. Or at least they try.
Well, imagine cloudpost is a common card...yet it was deemed too powerfull to be available even in modern. The cloudpost engine is pretty damn strong. If you were not able to beat it sooner than they hit absurd mana and starts reccuring lands for lifegain, cast flashbacks from yards and Ulamog's crusher, than you plain simply lose. I remember playing spreading seasin the SB just because this deck
Banning Wild Nacatl is possibly the worst thing they've done. The staple decks are Melira Pod, Raka Tempo/Control, Affinity, Jund variants. The rest are tier 2 or worse. What's wrong with ***** cat???
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Now, please, unban GGT...
Enablers of consistent too fast decks:
Ancient Den, Great Furnace, Seat of the Synod, Tree of Tales, Vault of Whispers
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Chrome Mox
Ponder
Preordain
Key pieces of consistent too fast combos:
Sword of the Meek
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Hypergenesis
Blazing Shoal
Borderline overpowered and extremely consistent, a.k.a. BORING:
Bitterblossom
Bloodbraid Elf
Sensei's Divining Top
Jace the Mind Sculptor
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Denials/Warpers:
Mental Misstep (denies every turn 1)
Wild Nacatl (invalidates every other aggro building)
Umezawa's Jitte (kills aggro)
Ancestral Visions (bonkers with cascade, turn 1 dependant)
Punishing Fire (kills aggro)
Second Sunrise (opponent doesn't play)
*************************************
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS?:
Golgari Grave-Troll (really, wtf?)
*************************************
If Nacatl is unbanned, I don't think it'll invalidates Electrolyze. They're random BOPs, Noble Hierarch, persisted Kitchen Finks to kill and more.
I agree on the Troll too. Wizards has its panties stuck in the bunch on that one.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I don't know the answer. My hope is that new cards are introduced to the format through unbanning or new sets, but if it is unbanning, WOTC should spend those hours trying to see how the format is impacted. You can't theorycraft this.
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Man, im dating myself all over the site today. I never saw it in action, so could anyone succinctly explain to me why dredge was super powerful?
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?