I may not find the lands impressive, but it doesn't make me feel Theros is going to be an inherently worse set, or that we need to "boycott it" (lol so ridiculous). Wizards did an amazing job with RTR and it would be a tad reasonable to expect them to outdo themselves with each passing set, even if over long periods of time Magic has been shifting to that.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasn't received with NEARLY the attention it deserved, and Tarmogoyf remained a "useless" rare for quite a period of time. Granted, we are talking about lands here, which, due to what lands do, tend to have a lot more obvious power levels. I am not saying these lands are "terrible" and I am not saying they won't see Standard play. It's simply the weak design and rarity that throw me off.
But the problem with this statement is...
You are paying mana in order to scry. That's why it's coming down tapped! The shocklands, you are paying 2 life. Force of will, you are paying life and a card. All of these you have to ask yourself if it's worth it.
Is 2 life worth fixing your mana on turn 1? Because the pricetags on shocklands say so.
Is paying 1 mana worth scrying for 1? Because last time I checked, it isn't.
You're paying 1 mana for mana fixing AND scrying 1.
Shocklands are paying a phyrexian for mana fixing.
We can boycott Theros. This way something can change.
It's clear the hate against Return to Ravnica because there's no duals on M14 and Theros RARE duals are not playable, maybe near-playable.
Three colored decks will become inviable after rotation. There's too much fun combining guilds but this is becoming inviable.
lol xD.
yeah boycott a set, because you dont like the duals. if you dont want taplands, then dont freaking play them. noone forces you to do that. so you gain tempo and lose consistency. its your decicion, and thats exactly the decicicion wotc wants players to make.
currently its like:
"i want to play green white and red, so i just take every shockland from the right color, and every checkland with the right color and put them into my deck"
soon it will be like: "hmm, i want to play green white and red. so i take every shockland and then how many scry-lands do i want? how much consistency i need and how much tempo?"
the decicion is much harder and you can make your deck whatever is your style. you like to take the risk of getting screwed sometimes, but if you dont get screwed you gain tempo, or do you like that your deck is so consistent, that you nearly never get screwed, but lose some tempo.
thats the choice you make. its harder, and more fun. sure they are worse than checklands especialy together with shocks. but that does not mean, that they are unfun to play. i for myself like that these lands do somethign else than just producing mana.
Everyone has the choice now, and ever deck gets a little slower.
now you have multiple choice: "i play monocolor and never get color screwed, but i can only use cards from 1 color"
"i play duo color, and make my deck slightly more inconsistent and slower, but i have the choice of more cards"
or: "i play jund still pick all the good cards from the colors and put them into my deck. and the better creatures and spell i can play make up for the lose of tempo".
i really like the choice you have to make, instead of the easy choice you had in innistrat/rtr standard.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasn't received with NEARLY the attention it deserved, and Tarmogoyf remained a "useless" rare for quite a period of time. Granted, we are talking about lands here, which, due to what lands do, tend to have a lot more obvious power levels. I am not saying these lands are "terrible" and I am not saying they won't see Standard play. It's simply the weak design and rarity that throw me off.
In all honesty? To me, it was the lack of creativity that threw me off. The lack of flavor. You have a Temple of Abandon, that... scries for 1. You have a Temple of Silence that... also... scries for 1.
I mean, if you compare them to the shocklands, losing life doesn't really make sense for red/white either, but it definitely felt better flavor-wise, because you never questioned it.
These just feel bland. Amazing art paired with bland rares...
And yeah... we will use them. We will use them in limited, standard, EDH, whatever it might be. We will use them because we have to. And that's not a good thing.
To be fair though, people who have negative opinions are often more motivated to speak out. Just because a majority of opinions on a message thread tilts towards negativity isn't necessarily representative of the general population.
I wouldn't be so sure that the sample size is skewed. Don't underestimate the allure of being a contrarian. Already on this thread I can see plenty of examples of Johnny apologists, desperately gripping their keyboards and typing out far-fetched defenses of the cycle while presumably shouting "NO! I CAN MAKE IT WORK!"
A much more scientific way of looking at it would be to try and find another example of Wizards upsetting the community this much. I can't think of one off the top of my head.
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I mainly play Standard and Modern.
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They'll be played in Standard because we don't have much other choice. Just embrace the change and Scry 1 all day.
You do have a choice, you can play mono-color decks or keep your secondary color to low-intensity splash cards. That is just obviously superior to having a CIPT land unless you're control or have some special use for card-filtering -- like it's cute to do this with a Domri in play, but you'd probably rather be able to actually cast your spells on time than occasionally get a nicer +1.
I think these lands are being underrated a little. Scry 1 is helpful and will make keeping 1-2 land hands a lot more acceptable, depending on the deck. I also like that I won't have to shell out 12+ dollars each for these. I foresee a ton of *****ing and moaning about them, and then most people including 4 in their 2 color decks while still lamenting about how much they hate them.
Making these uncommon would swing limited away from the meta they seem to be trying to build for Theros as well. It sucks to be taking up a rare slot, but really, how many dismiss into dream and guardian of the ages do you want to open? There will be sub par rares in every set, especially in one this big, and I'm sure there will be worse things to pull.
These lands are fine. They are skewed towards control/mid-range, since aggro can't afford to play many lands tapped. Thats fine, Shocklands are good in all archtypes, but especially notable because they are good in aggro. Just like the fast-lands in SoM block. Most lands are better in control, in general, because they play more lands and can afford missing a mana here and there (though it does start to add up).
Overall I think these will be a great addition to the Standard meta. Budget players can use Guildgates and not feel like they are too far behind. Shocklands will go up, possibly by a lot (get em now, especially the gatecrash ones!) since they will usually be 4-of while these may be 2-4 copies.
Also, while scrying isn't the most powerful thing, it can be an important decision which good players will take advantage of and bad players will screw up. Giving the game some more room for better plays is always good, in my opinion!
Everyone is super spoiled after having Shocks back. Anything short of Fetchlands or the original Duals would make people scream.
The lands are quite good, obviously not for aggro deck, but midrange/control will love playing some lands that smoothes their draws. They're better than Hallimar Depth, and that saw some play not long ago.
You guys should calm down, wait for the release and then start playing with those.
I want to say this really badly, and I'm sorry for picking on you. But a lot of people use this word...
This word...
'Free'.
No. You aren't scrying for free. You are paying for a land to come into play tapped, in order to scry. And last time I checked? Scrying 1 wasn't enough reason for it to come into play tapped. You could play a forest or a mountain, and it would feel like a Shockland compared to this. "Oooh... I get to play an Elvish Mystic turn 1! Oor... I could scry one...!" Would you scry 1, for 1 mana, turn 1?
And that same note, scrying 1 does NOT get you out of a mana sink, a mana flood, a mana screw, a creature screw, a color screw... no. Nothing. Scrying 1 says 'oh, hey, I want this card' or 'no, I don't want this card'. You have just the same chance of the next card being another card you don't want. If you have 5 lands on top? Scrying 1 will drop one of them, and you're still going to get mana screwed. You don't know. Scrying won't help.
Finally, I would like to mention that these are (in a vacuum) strictly better than guildgates. So that makes them... better, right? Well- yes. You can't argue that. But what I will say is that the design choice to make them rare really messes up an extremely important format: Limited. While people can be opening up Gods, or those insane weapons, or a monstrous creature, you will be opening up... a slightly better guildgate.
Since it is not an option to have it ETB tapped, it is essentially a free scry as compared to a guildgate. There is not an alternative untapped dual to use in its place so why use an argument that it is costing you 1 mana to scry? Prior to knowing what top card is, scry 1 does double your chances of not getting a card you don't want on the next draw, and otherwise lets you know what you will draw next. If I have 5 lands on top and I don't want lands at that time I would much rather draw lands for the next four turns than five!
All,
Once the checklands are gone then the metagame will adjust accordingly, and the fact that these ETB tapped will simply be a deck building consideration. The competitive options are 1. to play a mono-colored deck and avoid the issue altogether (perfectly reasonable), 2. use the guildgates for their beneficial interactions or because the scryland is not yet available for the desired color combos, or 3. use the scrylands to your advantage where reasonable.
I also agree that these being rare is a bit annoying to say the least. However, I do like the idea of improving individual deck consistency with these lands, keeping in mind drawing a scryland or a guildgate in its place, and this is one of the best ways to reasonably slow down a format. The current standard format is heavily reliant on avoiding a tapped land at all costs because it may cost you the game if you have to early on, and while this is still a consideration for sure I for one am willing to sacrifice a bit of speed for consistency. I think we would all like to believe that skill is "more" important than luck, and these lands replacing the checklands encourages this position. Chance will always play a major part in this game, but we still continue to play it because hopefully (on average) skill (in both deck building and playing) overcomes chance.
Everyone is super spoiled after having Shocks back. Anything short of Fetchlands or the original Duals would make people scream.
This may be asking a bit much as well, but a Horizon Canopy cycle would have made me BEYOND pleased. As in, ecstatic.
Hell, to be honest, I would have settled contently with a Nimbus Maze cycle. I don't play Standard so the power level isn't nearly as relevant an issue for me as the lazy design, which is the crux of my displeasure towards the lands.
Everyone is super spoiled after having Shocks back. Anything short of Fetchlands or the original Duals would make people scream.
The lands are quite good, obviously not for aggro deck, but midrange/control will love playing some lands that smoothes their draws. They're better than Hallimar Depth, and that saw some play not long ago.
You guys should calm down, wait for the release and then start playing with those.
Spoiled? Yes, perhaps, but anything short of original Duals?
Nono. Sulfurous Springs from Ice Age would have been better. Yavimaya Coast from Apocalypse would have been better. Razorverge Thicket from Scars of Mirrodin would have been better.
Throughout all of magic's history, rare dual lands have been great mana fixers. These are barely better than guildgates, something wizards decided to print at common. For good reason as well. We've had dual lands at common for a long time as well!
These are appropriately designed in both their mechanics and their rarity. Anyone talking about them needing to be common must not play limited. Can you imagine having 4-5 of these in a green or red deck? You would splash the BW one just to get the Scry. That alone shows how powerful the effect can be. Scrying 2 for free would be pretty busted.
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These are appropriately designed in both their mechanics and their rarity. Anyone talking about them needing to be common must not play limited. Can you imagine having 4-5 of these in a green or red deck? You would splash the BW one just to get the Scry. That alone shows how powerful the effect can be. Scrying 2 for free would be pretty busted.
I agree with both parts of this statement.
The resolution? Stop trying to make these lands work, and do something different. Why why why did they pick New Benalia to make a cycle of lands off of...?
I agree. Printing 10 over-costed mana rocks that all did the same thing was the epitome of creativity.
Seriously.
If you think these are creative, as compared to... say... the manlands from Zendikar. Or the cycle of dual-costed lands with different effects from Theros, then you are trying to defend something that doesn't exist for the sake of being different.
I made some testing with those cards in my future standard deck. I carried only 4 but I liked how you play them. On 10 testing scenarios, I can tell that, the simple scry 1 helped me to fix my manapool, I was somehow more free to choose if I wanted another land or not, and helped me to prevent to be stuck on lands a few times too, making more efficient my game. They come into play tapped, I know, but you can consider it like playing a 1 mana sorcery which "draw a card, then scry 1". Hard to explain, but it works in a similar way, which I see fine.
And I must say, those lands and the scrying spells we already have make this standard a really different metagame which I'm starting to like already.
My initial reaction was 'these are trash', but then I remembered when the ice age duals were reprinted, and they were $20 and you needed them for standard.
Don't hate on Underground River or the Apocalypse painlands. At least you can use them immediately to cast spells. In fact, I tried to get playsets of the enemy painland cycle since they were quite unique at that time.
I saw someone post about Badlands being printed. I though it was the Alpha card Badlands, now I'm just laughing at how bad these are. These are substantially worse than the common gates. Keep in mind that you have multiple cards that can search up a gate.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasn't received with NEARLY the attention it deserved, and Tarmogoyf remained a "useless" rare for quite a period of time. Granted, we are talking about lands here, which, due to what lands do, tend to have a lot more obvious power levels. I am not saying these lands are "terrible" and I am not saying they won't see Standard play. It's simply the weak design and rarity that throw me off.
You're paying 1 mana for mana fixing AND scrying 1.
Shocklands are paying a phyrexian for mana fixing.
lol xD.
yeah boycott a set, because you dont like the duals. if you dont want taplands, then dont freaking play them. noone forces you to do that. so you gain tempo and lose consistency. its your decicion, and thats exactly the decicicion wotc wants players to make.
currently its like:
"i want to play green white and red, so i just take every shockland from the right color, and every checkland with the right color and put them into my deck"
soon it will be like: "hmm, i want to play green white and red. so i take every shockland and then how many scry-lands do i want? how much consistency i need and how much tempo?"
the decicion is much harder and you can make your deck whatever is your style. you like to take the risk of getting screwed sometimes, but if you dont get screwed you gain tempo, or do you like that your deck is so consistent, that you nearly never get screwed, but lose some tempo.
thats the choice you make. its harder, and more fun. sure they are worse than checklands especialy together with shocks. but that does not mean, that they are unfun to play. i for myself like that these lands do somethign else than just producing mana.
Everyone has the choice now, and ever deck gets a little slower.
now you have multiple choice: "i play monocolor and never get color screwed, but i can only use cards from 1 color"
"i play duo color, and make my deck slightly more inconsistent and slower, but i have the choice of more cards"
or: "i play jund still pick all the good cards from the colors and put them into my deck. and the better creatures and spell i can play make up for the lose of tempo".
i really like the choice you have to make, instead of the easy choice you had in innistrat/rtr standard.
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In all honesty? To me, it was the lack of creativity that threw me off. The lack of flavor. You have a Temple of Abandon, that... scries for 1. You have a Temple of Silence that... also... scries for 1.
I mean, if you compare them to the shocklands, losing life doesn't really make sense for red/white either, but it definitely felt better flavor-wise, because you never questioned it.
These just feel bland. Amazing art paired with bland rares...
And yeah... we will use them. We will use them in limited, standard, EDH, whatever it might be. We will use them because we have to. And that's not a good thing.
I wouldn't be so sure that the sample size is skewed. Don't underestimate the allure of being a contrarian. Already on this thread I can see plenty of examples of Johnny apologists, desperately gripping their keyboards and typing out far-fetched defenses of the cycle while presumably shouting "NO! I CAN MAKE IT WORK!"
A much more scientific way of looking at it would be to try and find another example of Wizards upsetting the community this much. I can't think of one off the top of my head.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
You do have a choice, you can play mono-color decks or keep your secondary color to low-intensity splash cards. That is just obviously superior to having a CIPT land unless you're control or have some special use for card-filtering -- like it's cute to do this with a Domri in play, but you'd probably rather be able to actually cast your spells on time than occasionally get a nicer +1.
you people are too much spoiled:rolleyes:
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Making these uncommon would swing limited away from the meta they seem to be trying to build for Theros as well. It sucks to be taking up a rare slot, but really, how many dismiss into dream and guardian of the ages do you want to open? There will be sub par rares in every set, especially in one this big, and I'm sure there will be worse things to pull.
Overall I think these will be a great addition to the Standard meta. Budget players can use Guildgates and not feel like they are too far behind. Shocklands will go up, possibly by a lot (get em now, especially the gatecrash ones!) since they will usually be 4-of while these may be 2-4 copies.
Also, while scrying isn't the most powerful thing, it can be an important decision which good players will take advantage of and bad players will screw up. Giving the game some more room for better plays is always good, in my opinion!
The lands are quite good, obviously not for aggro deck, but midrange/control will love playing some lands that smoothes their draws. They're better than Hallimar Depth, and that saw some play not long ago.
You guys should calm down, wait for the release and then start playing with those.
Since it is not an option to have it ETB tapped, it is essentially a free scry as compared to a guildgate. There is not an alternative untapped dual to use in its place so why use an argument that it is costing you 1 mana to scry? Prior to knowing what top card is, scry 1 does double your chances of not getting a card you don't want on the next draw, and otherwise lets you know what you will draw next. If I have 5 lands on top and I don't want lands at that time I would much rather draw lands for the next four turns than five!
All,
Once the checklands are gone then the metagame will adjust accordingly, and the fact that these ETB tapped will simply be a deck building consideration. The competitive options are 1. to play a mono-colored deck and avoid the issue altogether (perfectly reasonable), 2. use the guildgates for their beneficial interactions or because the scryland is not yet available for the desired color combos, or 3. use the scrylands to your advantage where reasonable.
I also agree that these being rare is a bit annoying to say the least. However, I do like the idea of improving individual deck consistency with these lands, keeping in mind drawing a scryland or a guildgate in its place, and this is one of the best ways to reasonably slow down a format. The current standard format is heavily reliant on avoiding a tapped land at all costs because it may cost you the game if you have to early on, and while this is still a consideration for sure I for one am willing to sacrifice a bit of speed for consistency. I think we would all like to believe that skill is "more" important than luck, and these lands replacing the checklands encourages this position. Chance will always play a major part in this game, but we still continue to play it because hopefully (on average) skill (in both deck building and playing) overcomes chance.
This may be asking a bit much as well, but a Horizon Canopy cycle would have made me BEYOND pleased. As in, ecstatic.
Hell, to be honest, I would have settled contently with a Nimbus Maze cycle. I don't play Standard so the power level isn't nearly as relevant an issue for me as the lazy design, which is the crux of my displeasure towards the lands.
Spoiled? Yes, perhaps, but anything short of original Duals?
Nono. Sulfurous Springs from Ice Age would have been better.
Yavimaya Coast from Apocalypse would have been better.
Razorverge Thicket from Scars of Mirrodin would have been better.
Throughout all of magic's history, rare dual lands have been great mana fixers. These are barely better than guildgates, something wizards decided to print at common. For good reason as well. We've had dual lands at common for a long time as well!
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I agree with both parts of this statement.
The resolution? Stop trying to make these lands work, and do something different. Why why why did they pick New Benalia to make a cycle of lands off of...?
I agree. Printing 10 over-costed mana rocks that all did the same thing was the epitome of creativity.
Seriously.
If you think these are creative, as compared to... say... the manlands from Zendikar. Or the cycle of dual-costed lands with different effects from Theros, then you are trying to defend something that doesn't exist for the sake of being different.
And I must say, those lands and the scrying spells we already have make this standard a really different metagame which I'm starting to like already.
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Don't hate on Underground River or the Apocalypse painlands. At least you can use them immediately to cast spells. In fact, I tried to get playsets of the enemy painland cycle since they were quite unique at that time.
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Why not? Chances are if you're buying standard singles from the set you'd get good value from it. Xenegos alone is $30+
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How would a cycle of dual lands that just had cycling be received?
Red/Green cycle land comes into play tapped.
T: Add R or G to your mana pool.
Cycling (Discard this card: draw a card.)
Would those lands be considered better or worse than the scry lands, in general.
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